Wondering About Dormant Faith

[Sp0ckrates]

Talked to someone today that struggles to believe in the LDS church yet she is active, holds a calling etc. But has a sister that is full of faith, believes the church is true etc., but rarely attends. Which is the better way and which is dormant or are they both?

Tracenda: I'd say the latter is better if what she believes is true.

But does option (1) ever apply to anyone? Consider a person struggling with becoming a Latter Day Saint. She never has had faith it the teachings of the church, so she does not yet have an active faith to believe. But it's not because she does not know what she is struggling to believe. She knows what she has been encouraged to believe, but she continues to doubt, instead of letting faith grow. She might be said to have perfect knowledge of the truth has been perfectly communicated to her. Yet this knowledge is not the same as faith. For she still doubts. Knowing the truth is not the same as believing it, I guess.

In this example, could it be, then that her faith is like a seed--it's dormant and not yet a fruit tree? Could it be that someone who has never believed might also have a dormant faith?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Kenngo1969]

Talked to someone today that struggles to believe in the LDS church yet she is active, holds a calling etc. But has a sister that is full of faith, believes the church is true etc., but rarely attends. Which is the better way and which is dormant or are they both?

If one wants to know what another believes, my motto is, Don't just tell me what he says; show me what he does.  We're all hypocrites to one degree or another because, to varying degrees and various times, what we do fails to match what we say.  Now, having said that, I don't know what extenuating circumstances underlie the situation of the sister whose sister you say says (double hearsay! ) "rarely attends": We're all fully accountable to God; only rarely, comparatively speaking, are we accountable to one another, so it's not mine to judge.

[Kenngo1969]

Tracenda: I'd say the latter is better if what she believes is true.

But does option (1) ever apply to anyone? Consider a person struggling with becoming a Latter Day Saint. She never has had faith it the teachings of the church, so she does not yet have an active faith to believe. But it's not because she does not know what she is struggling to believe. She knows what she has been encouraged to believe, but she continues to doubt, instead of letting faith grow. She might be said to have perfect knowledge of the truth has been perfectly communicated to her. Yet this knowledge is not the same as faith. For she still doubts. Knowing the truth is not the same as believing it, I guess.

In this example, could it be, then that her faith is like a seed--it's dormant and not yet a fruit tree? Could it be that someone who has never believed might also have a dormant faith?

Many things can inhibit the growth of seeds (even seeds that are good) and many of those things are not necessarily the fault of the person who attempted to cultivate the good seed.  That's why, in the end, only God can judge.

[CV75]

Hi CV75. Please tell me why you are liking (3). I'm wondering why I should believe it and not, say (1).

Inasmuch as i like it, all I'm saying is that Alma 32 speaks to #3 more than the other two options you listed. I like many other observations on other aspects of faith as well, and other scriptures speak to those. I invite you to believe them all, for your own reasons, both rational and not.

 

I'm sure some people in some cases have no faith (even dormant faith), ever, in some point of truth or another. Also, in some cases, someone might lose faith or have it become dormant on any given point of truth due to willful disobedience against it (sinning against it), irrespective of any former knowledge he may have once enjoyed pertaining to said point of truth.

[Sp0ckrates]

Many things can inhibit the growth of seeds (even seeds that are good) and many of those things are not necessarily the fault of the person who attempted to cultivate the good seed. That's why, in the end, only God can judge.

Agreed, thanks. Making an observation, not a judgement call. Trying to show how option (1) is probable.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[HappyJackWagon]

Faith requires HOPE - ACTION - GRATTITUDE. It covers Future, present, and past.

 

"dormant" is an interesting word choice. I've always taken "dormant" to mean "unnecessary" in that the hope for something is no longer needed once it has come to fruition. I no longer need to HOPE the sun will come up this morning because it already has.

 

 

dormant

 

ADJECTIVE

adjective: dormant

(of an animal) having normal physical functions suspended or slowed down for a period of time; in or as if in a deep sleep:

This is why the word is so unusual. Dormant implies that something will become reanimated. If knowledge supplants faith there is really no need for faith to become reanimated in that thing.

 

Then again, maybe my faith that the sun will come up is dormant today because I have a knowledge of it having already happened, yet I will still need to have faith that it will come up again tomorrow. I will have HOPE, ACTION (get out of bed), and GRATTITUDE (thanking God for a new day)

[Sp0ckrates]

Inasmuch as i like it, all I'm saying is that Alma 32 speaks to #3 more than the other two options you listed. I like many other observations on other aspects of faith as well, and other scriptures speak to those. I invite you to believe them all, for your own reasons, both rational and not.

Well, I think I should only believe that which is true. Don't you? If we can demonstrate that it is highly improbable that (1) is true, then am I not better off disbelieving it?

I'm sure some people in some cases have no faith (even dormant faith), ever, in some point of truth or another. Also, in some cases, someone might lose faith or have it become dormant on any given point of truth due to willful disobedience against it (sinning against it), irrespective of any former knowledge he may have once enjoyed pertaining to said point of truth.

If you mean you are sure (1) is also describing another way one can have a dormant faith, you might be right. Perhaps this passage of the Bible supports that premise:

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

(Romans 12:3)

And I suppose there must be similar verses in the Book of Mormon, or other Mormon writings.

I mean, if everyone has a measure of faith, does that mean the faith to believe the truth about the Book of Morman is dormant in everyone who does not yet believe? Or should we instead say the faith to believe is nonexistent, rather than dormant in the unbeliever?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Faith requires HOPE - ACTION - GRATTITUDE. It covers Future, present, and past.

"dormant" is an interesting word choice. I've always taken "dormant" to mean "unnecessary" in that the hope for something is no longer needed once it has come to fruition. I no longer need to HOPE the sun will come up this morning because it already has.

This is why the word is so unusual. Dormant implies that something will become reanimated. If knowledge supplants faith there is really no need for faith to become reanimated in that thing.

Indeed! It's a fascinating (that is surprising) adjective to describe faith, HappyJackWagon.

Then again, maybe my faith that the sun will come up is dormant today because I have a knowledge of it having already happened, yet I will still need to have faith that it will come up again tomorrow. I will have HOPE, ACTION (get out of bed), and GRATTITUDE (thanking God for a new day)

There are two definitions given at dictionary.com:

dormant

[dawr-muh nt]

adjective

1. lying asleep or as if asleep; inactive, as in sleep; torpid:

The lecturer's sudden shout woke the dormant audience.

2. in a state of rest or inactivity; inoperative; in abeyance:

The project is dormant for the time being.

And someone here at the forum suggested the word dormant in Alma 32 means, "not being used" which I like and seems to be definition (2).

So I guess we are trying to determine under what circumstances faith is inactive or not being used.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

So to summarize, we are considering the meaning of Alma 32:34.

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

(Alma 32:34)

So far we have considered three possibilities, each of which seems to be supported by the Bible, and I imagine by the Book of Mormon, as well:

1. The faith one possesses always has been dormant and never has been active (Romans 12:3)

2. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through a lack of putting the faith in practice, it becomes dormant (James 2:20).

3. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through observing incontrovertible proof that the object of the faith is real or actual or true, it becomes dormant, and it's replaced by certainty (Hebrews 11:1).

I believe all three might be probable and could apply to Alma 32. I'll explain why in the next posts.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[mfbukowski]

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

(Alma 32:34)

Hi. I'm new here. A Mormon friend of mine at another forum suggested I ask about this verse, here. I'm wondering what the words, "your faith is dormant" mean. I guess there are at least two possibilities:

1. The faith they have was never active or used, so it had always been inactive or unused or dormant.

2. The faith they have was at one time active or used, but it is now inactive or unused or dormant.

I suppose possibility (1) might mean we are all born with faith, which is unknow to us until it is somehow awakened. Possibility (2) might mean the goal of every Christian is to make his or her faith about everything dormant or inactive.

Both possibilities are something new to me and promise to make for some fascinating discoveries. Please tell me your thoughts on whether (1) or (2) or some other is true and explain why. Also feel free--but not obligated--to answer follow up questions, as I'm sure I'll have some.

Joseph said that faith is a "principle of action".

 

All actions require faith.  Getting out of a chair and walking across the room requires belief that something unseen (yet- like seeing the future) can and will happen.  You have faith that you will not have a stroke in the next 5 seconds, that your legs will work, that something will not distract you, etc- that indeed all will function properly to allow you to do what it is that you have in mind.

 

You start a course of study at college, faithful that you will complete it and fulfill whatever goal brought you to that field of study.

 

Any action you plan for in the future requires faith that you will be able to accomplish it, or at least a desire to accomplish it, but it is always in regard to something hoped for, that will happen in the future. (hoped for but not seen)

 

So for me, hope is vague- like a distant "wish".  I hope I will be rich some day.

 

Faith means I am planning to get there.  I have faith that in fact I will be rich some day.  The difference between hope and faith is action.  I am willing to take an action to bring about what I hope for

 

So faith kicks in when you take action to achieve something more.

 

So dormant faith may be something like hope-  it would be nice if we all died and went to heaven.  i hope I get there some day.  Vague.  You are not engaged in the process.  Maybe it will happen maybe not.  Sigh. 

 

But when faith kicks in- Yes I hope I will go to heaven one day, but what does that mean??   What church should I join if any?  IS THERE a heaven to even worry about?  Who has the best explanation for this all??

 

Then you join a church or a path, and take action.  Yes I will be a Buddhist monk!  Yes I will get baptized!  Yes I will be a Mormon missionary!  I have faith that my actions in these organizations will bring me closer to what I now call "God", who yesterday, when my faith/hope was dormant, I perhaps did not even know existed.

 

NOW I am willing to take action on a set of beliefs that I hope/ know/ pray are true and right.  Hope or dormant faith now is fully active faith because I have taken action on it.

 

That is why we call some people "less active".   That is precisely what they are.

 

They have or have had faith which is now "dormant" (from "dormir" French for "to sleep") BECAUSE they are no longer taking action on it.

 

So faith is always about action.

[Sp0ckrates]

Joseph said that faith is a "principle of action".

All actions require faith. Getting out of a chair and walking across the room requires belief that something unseen (yet- like seeing the future) can and will happen. You have faith that you will not have a stroke in the next 5 seconds, that your legs will work, that something will not distract you, etc- that indeed all will function properly to allow you to do what it is that you have in mind.

You start a course of study at college, faithful that you will complete it and fulfill whatever goal brought you to that field of study.

Any action you plan for in the future requires faith that you will be able to accomplish it, or at least a desire to accomplish it, but it is always in regard to something hoped for, that will happen in the future. (hoped for but not seen)

So for me, hope is vague- like a distant "wish". I hope I will be rich some day.

Faith means I am planning to get there. I have faith that in fact I will be rich some day. The difference between hope and faith is action. I am willing to take an action to bring about what I hope for

So faith kicks in when you take action to achieve something more.

So dormant faith may be something like hope- it would be nice if we all died and went to heaven. i hope I get there some day. Vague. You are not engaged in the process. Maybe it will happen maybe not. Sigh.

But when faith kicks in- Yes I hope I will go to heaven one day, but what does that mean?? What church should I join if any? IS THERE a heaven to even worry about? Who has the best explanation for this all??

Then you join a church or a path, and take action. Yes I will be a Buddhist monk! Yes I will get baptized! Yes I will be a Mormon missionary! I have faith that my actions in these organizations will bring me closer to what I now call "God", who yesterday, when my faith/hope was dormant, I perhaps did not even know existed.

NOW I am willing to take action on a set of beliefs that I hope/ know/ pray are true and right. Hope or dormant faith now is fully active faith because I have taken action on it.

That is why we call some people "less active". That is precisely what they are.

They have or have had faith which is now "dormant" (from "dormir" French for "to sleep") BECAUSE they are no longer taking action on it.

So faith is always about action.

And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

(Alma 32:21)

Thanks for the reply, MFBukowski.

I'm confused about these words. For it seems to me, "hope for things unseen" is a bit redundant. Isn't hope believing in something unobservered? If so, how is faith different from Hope?

So my thought at the moment is this: When we hope, we expect something might happen even though we do not know it is something we should expect. For example, I may pray that I will be hired to work for an employer after a job interview. I don't know it is God's will I work there, so I have hope, but not faith that God will answer my prayer by having the employer offer me the job. In contrast, let's say I am hired and one of my coworkers really tries my patience. I pray that God will give me the patience to deal with the coworker. This I know is God's will, so I no longer merely hope God will answer my prayer--I know it is his will and so I have faith God will answer this prayer. In both cases, the object of hope or faith is unseen. What makes faith different from mere hope is the certainty of God's will regarding the request.

Does that sound right, or am I misunderstanding the true difference between hope and faith?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I'm confused about these words. For it seems to me, "hope for things unseen" is a bit redundant. Isn't hope believing in something unobservered? If so, how is faith different from Hope?

 

Hope can also be in the interpretation of things which ARE seen.

[Sp0ckrates]

Hope can also be in the interpretation of things which ARE seen.

Please give an example.

[HappyJackWagon]

Please give an example.

I give a blessing to someone who is sick. That person gets better. In interpret the proximity of time between the blessing and the healing as being related. I interpret the blessing to cause the healing because I see something happen but I interpret and assign meaning. I might also go a step farther and interpret the healing as evidence of God's love for the person who was healed. Therefore my interpretation of the blessing/s perceived benefit leads to me to hope that God exists and loves his children and has a plan for us and will honor the priesthood.

[bluebell]

Just to be clear, Will was a fictional character and his experience was entirely the creation of the author. He also could have flapped his arms and flown to Mars and back if the author had wanted him to.

 

True.

 

But what the author did have Will do is a good example of how actions, faith, and belief can work in our lives and therefore relevant to the discussion.  Flying to Mars would not have been as illustrative.  

[Sp0ckrates]

I give a blessing to someone who is sick. That person gets better. In interpret the proximity of time between the blessing and the healing as being related. I interpret the blessing to cause the healing because I see something happen but I interpret and assign meaning. I might also go a step farther and interpret the healing as evidence of God's love for the person who was healed. Therefore my interpretation of the blessing/s perceived benefit leads to me to hope that God exists and loves his children and has a plan for us and will honor the priesthood.

Not sure I see. Since the person is sick when you pray, isn't the healing still unobservered at the time of the prayer? Also even though God answered the prayer to heal in the past, might he not answer the prayer to heal now? For isn't it true his purpose might not be to heal on some occasions? (For example, Paul's prayers for miraculous healings were answered many times, yet his prayer for his own affliction to be healed was not.)

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

(2 Corinthians)

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

So to summarize, we are considering the meaning of Alma 32:34.

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

(Alma 32:34)

So far we have considered three possibilities, each of which seems to be supported by the Bible, and I imagine by the Book of Mormon, as well:

1. The faith one possesses always has been dormant and never has been active (Romans 12:3)

2. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through a lack of putting the faith in practice, it becomes dormant (James 2:20).

3. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through observing incontrovertible proof that the object of the faith is real or actual or true, it becomes dormant, and it's replaced by certainty (Hebrews 11:1).

I believe all three might be probable and could apply to Alma 32. I'll explain why in the next posts.

1. The faith one possesses always has been dormant and never has been active (Romans 12:3)

How (1) might be possible:

The poor people believed in God but the truth of the word of God had not yet been explained to them. They did not know how to obey God, so their faith was present, but not active, and so it was dormant before Alma spoke to them.

After he spoke to them, their knowledge was made perfect. For they now had a perfect understanding of the truth of the word of God. But their faith was still dormant. For although they knew the truth, they had either not yet accepted it as true or had not yet obeyed the truth by putting it into practice.

I'll explain in other posts how (2) or (3) might also be the correct understanding of dormant faith.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[CV75]

Well, I think I should only believe that which is true. Don't you? If we can demonstrate that it is highly improbable that (1) is true, then am I not better off disbelieving it?

If you mean you are sure (1) is also describing another way one can have a dormant faith, you might be right. Perhaps this passage of the Bible supports that premise:

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

(Romans 12:3)

And I suppose there must be similar verses in the Book of Mormon, or other Mormon writings.

I mean, if everyone has a measure of faith, does that mean the faith to believe the truth about the Book of Morman is dormant in everyone who does not yet believe? Or should we instead say the faith to believe is nonexistent, rather than dormant in the unbeliever?

People can demonstrate all sorts of probability that anything can be true. That which is demonstrated to be highly improbable to be true with one set of arguments can be demonstrated to be highly probable to be true with another set. I think we are best off believing whatever it is the Lord has led (or will lead) us to believe according to our good faith, pure intent, integrity of heart, etc. But if we are only believing that which He allows us to (which can be just about anything), and we still do so in good faith and pure intent, integrity, etc. I believe He will lead us to true principles eventually, just as He did with Saul.

 

I think everyone has a measure of faith in something true, whether it is in a religious, spiritual or temporal principle. In Mormonism it can be said that all things are fundamentally spiritual anyway.

 

I likewise think that everyone has the capacity to exercise faith in the Book of Mormon and that this faith can range from having an open mind about its truthfulness to a desire to believe it as a testament of Christ on the basis of having a spiritual resonance with its contents and message, and onward to enjoying fuller fruits of faith in the form of a witness received from the Holy Ghost and active application of the teachings. At some point everyone will have an opportunity to hear the word.

 

The only scriptural reference I have to faith being “dormant” in certain contexts is Alma 32, but I think it was also in play when the father asked Jesus to help his so-called unbelief (Mark 9:24). The man confessed his belief, and apparently acknowledged that it was insufficient (dormant to a degree) for the miracle he asked for by asking the Lord to help him improve what he felt was just a modest measure of belief.

 

I think the same can be said for those reading and exercising faith in the Book of Mormon as I described above.

[Sp0ckrates]

People can demonstrate all sorts of probability that anything can be true. That which is demonstrated to be highly improbable to be true with one set of arguments can be demonstrated to be highly probable to be true with another set.

Good point. I guess in the example of Alma 32, it is possible some had a dormant faith as described by (1), others had a dormant faith as described by (2) and still others had a dormant faith as described by (3). My investigation is not so much one of figuring out what dormant faith was to Alma's audience so much as what dormant faith might be in me.

I think we are best off believing whatever it is the Lord has led (or will lead) us to believe according to our good faith, pure intent, integrity of heart, etc. But if we are only believing that which He allows us to (which can be just about anything), and we still do so in good faith and pure intent, integrity, etc. I believe He will lead us to true principles eventually, just as He did with Saul.

That is my hope. What I often find is that God chooses to speak to me through the insights he gives to others. I guess I'm like Socrates in that way. I have little wisdom of my own, but I know what questions to ask to receive wisdom from others. Through others, you see is how God often speaks to me.

I think everyone has a measure of faith in something true, whether it is in a religious, spiritual or temporal principle. In Mormonism it can be said that all things are fundamentally spiritual anyway.

I likewise think that everyone has the capacity to exercise faith in the Book of Mormon and that this faith can range from having an open mind about its truthfulness to a desire to believe it as a testament of Christ on the basis of having a spiritual resonance with its contents and message, and onward to enjoying fuller fruits of faith in the form of a witness received from the Holy Ghost and active application of the teachings. At some point everyone will have an opportunity to hear the word.

The only scriptural reference I have to faith being “dormant” in certain contexts is Alma 32, but I think it was also in play when the father asked Jesus to help his so-called unbelief (Mark 9:24). The man confessed his belief, and apparently acknowledged that it was insufficient (dormant to a degree) for the miracle he asked for by asking the Lord to help him improve what he felt was just a modest measure of belief.

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

(Mark 9)

I think, perhaps people who are in great distress often are illogical. If you've ever helped someone through a crisis that caused them to have an emotional breakdown as I have, you might know what I mean. The statements, "Lord I believe," and "help though my unbelief," are self contradictory, as they cannot possibly both be true. Either he believes Jesus can heal his child and needs no help overcoming unbelief, or he does not believe Jesus can heal his child and does need help overcoming unbelief.

So I'm not sure we should take the emotional babbling of a desperate man as Gospel truth. However there are other passages, I believe that do support the idea that God helps us overcome unbelief, this being one:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 6:44)

So I'm actually not disagreeing with you.

I think the same can be said for those reading and exercising faith in the Book of Mormon as I described above.

Yes, you might be right. So let's consider myself: I have not yet come to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon is true. Yet the words "dormant faith" have fascinated me so that I certainly now have a much greater interest in investigating further.

If you had to guess based on what I just said, would you say I now have a dormant faith in the Book of Mormon? Or do you think I probably have no faith in the Book of Mormon, yet? Or do I have some faith in the Book of Mormon, which is active, and if it continues to grow, it will become dormant?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[CV75]

Good point. I guess in the example of Alma 32, it is possible some had a dormant faith as described by (1), others had a dormant faith as described by (2) and still others had a dormant faith as described by (3). My investigation is not so much one of figuring out what dormant faith was to Alma's audience so much as what dormant faith might be in me.

I would think having enough faith to anticipate some satisfaction in reading it is sufficient to get started, without fully understanding the quality of your faith.

 

That is my hope. What I often find is that God chooses to speak to me through the insights he gives to others. I guess I'm like Socrates in that way. I have little wisdom of my own, but I know what questions to ask to receive wisdom from others. Through others, you see is how God often speaks to me.

God still asks you to ask wisdom of Him in faith (James 1:5-6), whether he answers you directly or gives you “words of wisdom” through others (D&C 88:118).

 

I think, perhaps people who are in great distress often are illogical. If you've ever helped someone through a crisis that caused them to have an emotional breakdown as I have, you might know what I mean. The statements, "Lord I believe," and "help though my unbelief," are self contradictory, as they cannot possibly both be true. Either he believes Jesus can heal his child and needs no help overcoming unbelief, or he does not believe Jesus can heal his child and does need help overcoming unbelief.

I see nothing inherently wrong with something being illogical (“my ways ae not your ways”), and it is often a matter of perspective and the availability and quality of information. Our religion is based on a logic that relies upon “the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven”! Our testimonies are based on study (which entails reasoning and logic) and faith. Desperation in varying degrees can be a turning point to salvation (Alma 32:13-16; Mosiah 27:28, 29; Alma 36:12-21). The statements, "Lord I believe," and "help though my unbelief," are not necessarily self-contradictory: it is like saying, “Lord, I believe, but I need thy help to believe enough.”

 

Yes, you might be right. So let's consider myself: I have not yet come to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon is true. Yet the words "dormant faith" have fascinated me so that I certainly now have a much greater interest in investigating further.

I think it is great that you have an interest in exploring the Book of Mormon. I recommend reading it from cover to cover, no matter what particular passages the missionaries of anyone else might ask you to read as part of your investigation.

 

If you had to guess based on what I just said, would you say I now have a dormant faith in the Book of Mormon? Or do you think I probably have no faith in the Book of Mormon, yet? Or do I have some faith in the Book of Mormon, which is active, and if it continues to grow, it will become dormant?

I don’t know enough to guess, but I can say with great confidence that in any of these instances, the Lord will help you to both have faith, awaken it, and find it rewarded and expanded (along with knowledge)!

[Duncan]

What do you think about this verse, Moroni 7:39

 

"But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church."

[mfbukowski]

And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

(Alma 32:21)

Thanks for the reply, MFBukowski.

I'm confused about these words. For it seems to me, "hope for things unseen" is a bit redundant. Isn't hope believing in something unobservered? If so, how is faith different from Hope?

So my thought at the moment is this: When we hope, we expect something might happen even though we do not know it is something we should expect. For example, I may pray that I will be hired to work for an employer after a job interview. I don't know it is God's will I work there, so I have hope, but not faith that God will answer my prayer by having the employer offer me the job. In contrast, let's say I am hired and one of my coworkers really tries my patience. I pray that God will give me the patience to deal with the coworker. This I know is God's will, so I no longer merely hope God will answer my prayer--I know it is his will and so I have faith God will answer this prayer. In both cases, the object of hope or faith is unseen. What makes faith different from mere hope is the certainty of God's will regarding the request.

Does that sound right, or am I misunderstanding the true difference between hope and faith?

I had said about all I had to say in my post.

 

Making it short,, hope is "pie in the sky" and not followed through with action.

 

Faith is a principle of action- you are willing to do something to achieve your hope.

 

That's what i think and that's about all I have to say on this.  I avoid worrying about semantic differences.

Edited June 2, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Bobbieaware]

Good point. I guess in the example of Alma 32, it is possible some had a dormant faith as described by (1), others had a dormant faith as described by (2) and still others had a dormant faith as described by (3). My investigation is not so much one of figuring out what dormant faith was to Alma's audience so much as what dormant faith might be in me. That is my hope. What I often find is that God chooses to speak to me through the insights he gives to others. I guess I'm like Socrates in that way. I have little wisdom of my own, but I know what questions to ask to receive wisdom from others. Through others, you see is how God often speaks to me. 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

(Mark 9)

I think, perhaps people who are in great distress often are illogical. If you've ever helped someone through a crisis that caused them to have an emotional breakdown as I have, you might know what I mean. The statements, "Lord I believe," and "help though my unbelief," are self contradictory, as they cannot possibly both be true. Either he believes Jesus can heal his child and needs no help overcoming unbelief, or he does not believe Jesus can heal his child and does need help overcoming unbelief.

So I'm not sure we should take the emotional babbling of a desperate man as Gospel truth. However there are other passages, I believe that do support the idea that God helps us overcome unbelief, this being one:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 6:44)

So I'm actually not disagreeing with you.

:)Yes, you might be right. So let's consider myself: I have not yet come to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon is true. Yet the words "dormant faith" have fascinated me so that I certainly now have a much greater interest in investigating further.

If you had to guess based on what I just said, would you say I now have a dormant faith in the Book of Mormon? Or do you think I probably have no faith in the Book of Mormon, yet? Or do I have some faith in the Book of Mormon, which is active, and if it continues to grow, it will become dormant?

In the context of your initial question, the most important principle to understand about the expression "dormant faith," as found in Alma 32, is not all of one's faith becomes dormant when knowledge replaces faith in certain given areas. The entirety of the believer's faith remains awake, active, cohesive and vibrant. The dormancy, spoken of, only applies to certain specific areas where knowledge is replaced by faith. In other words, the entirety of a believer's faith does not got to sleep, as it were, just because some specific areas of faith have been answered by knowledge. Alma makes it clear that as the process of spiritual growth continues, the beleivers"s faith must remain intact, even as knowledge may replace faith in some specific instances; but the absolute need for continued dynamic faith can never be obviated.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

What do you think about this verse, Moroni 7:39

"But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church."

Hi Duncan. One thing I suppose Moroni might be saying: As faith is the evidence of that not seen, so meekness is the evidence of faith. Edited June 2, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

I would think having enough faith to anticipate some satisfaction in reading it is sufficient to get started, without fully understanding the quality of your faith.

Sorry for being clear as mud! I was speaking of the faith of those listening to Alma speak, not the faith of those reading the Book of Mormon today.

God still asks you to ask wisdom of Him in faith (James 1:5-6), whether he answers you directly or gives you “words of wisdom” through others (D&C 88:118).

Agreed, and I do. I was thinking God's answer to the prayer for wisdom might be experienced through others answering questions the prayer asks.

I see nothing inherently wrong with something being illogical (“my ways ae not your ways”),

I think our ways are to be illogical, or to be deceived into thinking we are right when we are in fact wrong. As Socrates said: "There is nothing worse than self-deception where the deceiver is always with you. It is quite terrible!" (Cratylus 385). But do you have an example in mind of God's ways seeming to be illogical, irrational, or contrary to sound reason and common sense?

and it is often a matter of perspective and the availability and quality of information. Our religion is based on a logic that relies upon “the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven”! Our testimonies are based on study (which entails reasoning and logic) and faith. Desperation in varying degrees can be a turning point to salvation (Alma 32:13-16; Mosiah 27:28, 29; Alma 36:12-21). The statements, "Lord I believe," and "help though my unbelief," are not necessarily self-contradictory: it is like saying, “Lord, I believe, but I need thy help to believe enough.”

You might be right.

I think it is great that you have an interest in exploring the Book of Mormon. I recommend reading it from cover to cover, no matter what particular passages the missionaries of anyone else might ask you to read as part of your investigation.

I don’t know enough to guess, but I can say with great confidence that in any of these instances, the Lord will help you to both have faith, awaken it, and find it rewarded and expanded (along with knowledge)!

Thanks for the recommendation and encouragement. Edited June 2, 2015 by Sp0ckrates