Wondering About Dormant Faith

[Bobbieaware]

I guess I don't understand. Why would an expression of sadness be acting like he does not know the future? I guess I still don't understand how this relates to the question of whether there is any evidence God does not have perfect knowledge of everything, including the future. My thought is that David's and Jesus' statements are evidence to the contrary. David says the Lord knows his thoughts before he thinks them. Jesus says God the Father knows the exact day and hour of his return to earth.

My point is that it doesn't matter. As free agents, we can choose to believe and follow God or we can choose not to believe and not follow him. Speculating about things that we are not permitted to know while in mortality is becoming like those Jews of old who stumbled and were condemned by the Lord because they were always looking "beyond the mark." If those folks of an earlier day have a lesson for us, it's that there's nothing to be gained by being consumed with unanswerable speculations and and allowing ourselves to get sidetracked away from the weightier matters of the law of the gospel. The prophets of the LDS Church are not worried about that unanswerable (for now) question and so I will follow in wisdom of their path.

[Bobbieaware]

The Book of Mormon repeatedly declares and most solemnly affirms that God has made us PERFECTLY FREE to choose for ourselves the path we want to follow, and that that most sacred power to choose our own fate was made possible at the awesome price of the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Christ. The Book of Mormon asserts again and again that this sacred freedom to choose is not some sort of cosmic illusion but that it is very real. So in the end it doesn't matter if God knows our fate from the beginning because we are still the ones who will chose our own fate.

[Sp0ckrates]

My point is that it doesn't matter. As free agents, we can choose to believe and follow God or we can choose not to believe and not follow him. Speculating about things that we are not permitted to know while in mortality is becoming like those Jews of old who stumbled and were condemned by the Lord because they were always looking "beyond the mark." If those folks of an earlier day have a lesson for us, it's that there's nothing to be gained by being consumed with unanswerable speculations and and allowing ourselves to get sidetracked away from the weightier matters of the law of the gospel. The prophets of the LDS Church are not worried about that unanswerable (for now) question and so I will follow in wisdom of their path.

Why do you say we are not permitted to know whether God knows the future? Is there something in the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants that says this is something God does not want us to know about him?

.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

The Book of Mormon repeatedly declares and most solemnly affirms that God has made us PERFECTLY FREE to choose for ourselves the path we want to follow, and that that most sacred power to choose our own fate was made possible at the awesome price of the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Christ. The Book of Mormon asserts again and again that this sacred freedom to choose is not some sort of cosmic illusion but that it is very real. So in the end it doesn't matter if God knows our fate from the beginning because we are still the ones who will chose our own fate.

I completely agree. If God perfectly knows what we will decide, this in no way means we are not free to make that choice. Though I understand what Calvinists believe, I do not put faith in all of those beliefs.

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Edited June 7, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[mfbukowski]

Or would anyone like to explain why (3) is true? (I'm having trouble grasping it.)

Define "true" and I will be glad to.

[mfbukowski]

Or would anyone like to explain why (3) is true? (I'm having trouble grasping it.)

"Truth" is a word we use to say "That works for me- I believe it".  No other definition works.

 

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/

 

After people heard Alma, they knew that the principles worked in their lives.  They saw that they made sense and caused them to feel happy, and helped them with their lives.

 

That's about all there is to say about it.

[mfbukowski]

I mean, I can see how (3) is true if the object of faith is never out of view. For example, when I see the sun with my eyes, I know the perfect truth that it exists, and I can see how my faith in the nearest star might be dormant. But as soon as the sun sets, I no longer see it, so I cease to have such perfect knowledge, and dormant faith comes back to life and is no longer dormant, I think.

But if we are speaking of spiritual truths, such as the existence of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, can we ever, while in mortal bodies seeing with mortal eyes, see them and so have dormant faith? Yes, someone like Paul might have had such dormant faith when he saw Jesus with his own eyes, but did the people to whom Alma spoke behold such a sight? So I wonder if such a perfect state of knowing and ceasing to have active faith in a spiritual truth is likely to happen on this side of eternity.

I am certain that the best government postulates that human beings have rights just because they are human beings.  That is true.  That is a perfect state of knowing.

 

The idea that "murder is wrong" is absolutely true.  Yes, self defense etc- but those are not "murder".  How certain am I ?  Totally.  No doubt.  Like looking at the sun.  I know it is wrong to murder babies for fun.  Perfect state of knowing.

 

I know that God exists in the same way.  No doubt.  I have experienced him. I know "you" exist as well- someone wrote this, I have no doubt whatsoever.

 

There can be no greater certainty about anything than what you know for yourself to be "true".

 

Does truth change?  Of course- why not.??  Everything else does.

 

Perhaps you are just not used to thinking this way.  It is not Platonic.

Edited June 7, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

 So when I see the sun in my dream, I think what I'm experiencing is perfect knowledge. For I think the sun is real. But I'm actually deceived. So it is not perfect knowledge. It is only an illusion and a deception and therefore imperfect knowledge.

There is no basis for this belief.  It is circular.  It begs the question.

[mfbukowski]

Lucifer, who was once a an angel of authority and power in the presence of God, was cast out of heaven with one third of the other angelic host for rebellion against God and wickedness. So knowing God exists is not enough, one must also emphatically jbelieve he is a true God who has our true happiness and eternal best interests at heart. The devils on earth know God and Christ exist, but they do not have faith in him and so their sure knowledge avails them absolutely nothing...

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2)

Absolutely.

 

Faith is not about what cannot be experienced.  It is about things as they are- things which can be experienced.

 

We can experience God directly and we know that the plan of happiness "works".  Faith is about action not abstraction.  

[mfbukowski]

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

(John 3:12)

CV: The reason I used the sun as an example is I want to know how the concept of dormant faith applies to that which I am familiar before I dive into the deep spiritual truths about which I am unfamiliar. So forgive me for asking this, but please tell me plainly: Is my faith in the sun dormant when I see it and active when I don't?

It all depends on definitions.

 

Words words words.  It's useless.

[mfbukowski]

This is the kind of thing that happens when a verse of scripture is taken out of its context and unduly focused on in isolation, without attempting to use the surrounding verses to gain a fuller understanding of what it is the writer is actually trying to say. You've focused on Alma's use of the the word dormant as if the prophet is daring to say knowledge obviates the need for increased faith, when Alma himself says the exact opposite in the very same chapter. Here's what he says:

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I SAY UNTO YOU, YEA; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? YEA, IT WILL STRENGTHEN YOUR FAITH: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. (Alma 32)

Another major point where you may be making a mistake is that in the very verse where Alma speaks of faith becoming dormant, he is not at all speaking of the undeniable kind of sure knowledge, like seeing the sun with one's own eyes as it shines brightly in his face. Rather, he is speaking of a much more subjective form of knowledge, the kind of knowledge that stems from the FEELINGS of spiritual growth one experiences when touched by the Spirit of God. And as most know, this kind of knowledge is much, much easier to deny and walk away from if one chooses to backslide and walk away from the faith.

Finally, as I said in an earlier post, dormant faith can still be extremely powerful faith. All the power and glory of dynamic faith is still very much alive, but it simply takes a very temporary back seat as the man of faith celebrates a partial realization of his faith. Think of the brief period of joy Mary and Martha experienced after their brother Lazarus was raised from the dead, which brief moment of rejoicing in knowledge was cut short by a new and even greater trial of faith when Christ was arrested, tortured, crucified and laid dead in a tomb.

[mfbukowski]

Maybe God does not know what I think he knows? Please tell me: Does Mormonism teach God does not have perfect knowledge of the future?

What does this even mean?

 

What is "perfect knowledge" in this context?   What is "the future"?  Can "the future" be changed or is it fixed?  If it is fixed does that mean we don't have free will?

 

And why would Mormonism teach anything about what cannot even be defined?

 

Where is "perfect knowledge of the future" in the scriptures?

[mfbukowski]

I guess I don't understand. Why would God reacting to the present be acting like he does not know the future? Why would God having perfect knowledge of the future cause him to not care about the present?

I guess I still don't understand how this relates to the question of whether there is any evidence God does not have perfect knowledge of everything, including the future. My thought is that David's and Jesus' statements are evidence that he does have such knowledge, or something approaching it. David says the Lord knows his thoughts before he thinks them. Jesus says God the Father knows the exact day and hour of his return to earth.

Do the writers of scripture have perfect knowledge of God?

 

How did they get it?   Is the bible literally true in every respect?

[mfbukowski]

Why do you say we are not permitted to know whether God knows the future? Is there something in the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants that says this is something God does not want us to know about him?

.

Why does the answer to that question matter either way?

 

Is all that God knows and does in the scriptures?   How did it get there?

[Bobbieaware]

Why do you say we are not permitted to know whether God knows the future? Is there something in the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants that says this is something God does not want us to know about him?

.

Our scriptures do declare God knows the end from the beginning. But the LDS prophets -- as far as I'm aware -- have never attempted to explain if that means he knows a general outline of the important events that lie in futurity, or if it means he knows every time I'm going to turn my head to the left or the right or what I'm going to have for dinner on the 21st of August. So the meaning of the saying remains a.general mystery. But it's possible some individual members of the church may have had a more full understanding of the saying revealed to them by the Holy Ghost.

[Sp0ckrates]

MFBukowski: You have just asked me a dozen questions, my friend. Please choose one for me to answer and I will do my best. Thanks.

[Sp0ckrates]

Our scriptures do declare God knows the end from the beginning. But the LDS prophets -- as far as I'm aware -- have never attempted to explain if that means he knows a general outline of the important events that lie in futurity, or if it means he knows every time I'm going to turn my head to the left or the right or what I'm going to have for dinner on the 21st of August. So the meaning of the saying remains a.general mystery. But it's possible some individual members of the church may have had a more full understanding of the saying revealed to them by the Holy Ghost.

Bobbieaware: Yes, I understand and accept that. That God knows the future is likely what the LDS and other scriptures teach is true. How much of the future he knows is unknown, I suppose. I like to think God knows the future because he is already there, but that is just my imagination, and the truth might be far less fantastic. My guess was the only way I could fathom these words could be true:

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

(Deuteronomy 18)

It was the only way to explain how nearly every ancient city within 1,000 miles of Jerusalem had it's future predicted in the pages of the Old Testament. It was the only way I could see that the prophets of God could predict the future with 100% accuracy 100% of the time.

But should we make the same inference about God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence as we do about his omniscience? Should we say we know God has great power, but we do not know if he has the power to do any good thing he decides to do? Should we say we know God has great love, but we do not know he sometimes fails to love when he should?

Edited June 8, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[mfbukowski]

MFBukowski: You have just asked me a dozen questions, my friend. Please choose one for me to answer and I will do my best. Thanks.

Just define truth.

 

That should throw some light on everything.  Comment on the deflationary theory of truth I linked to.

 

Here is another link just in case

 

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/

[Bobbieaware]

Bobbieaware: Yes, I understand and accept that. That God knows the future is likely what the LDS and other scriptures teach is true. How much of the future he knows is unknown, I suppose. I like to think God knows the future because he is already there, but that is just my imagination, and the truth might be far less fantastic.

Should we make the same inference about God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence as we do about his omniscience? Should we say we know God has great power, but we do not know if he has the power to do any good thing he decides to do? Should we say we know God has great love, but we do not know he sometimes fails to love when he should?

The Book of Mormon teaches us that if God ever acted in a way that was not perfectly good and perfectly loving, the universe would cease to exist, all things would vanish away. Since we're still here in the midst of existence, I have perfect confidence God not only exists but that he is consistently perfect in every way.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

Just define truth.

That should throw some light on everything. Comment on the deflationary theory of truth I linked to.

Here is another link just in case

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/

No problem. Please start a discussion titled, "What is truth?" Or something like that. I'd like to participate.

[Sp0ckrates]

The Book of Mormon teaches us that if God ever acted in a way that was not perfectly good and perfectly loving, the universe would cease to exist, all things would vanish away. Since we're still here in the midst of existence, I have perfect confidence God not only exists but that he is consistently perfect in every way.

Very good. So we should believe God is omnibenevolent, but be less certain God is omniscient. What about omnipotence? Does the Mormon faith teach God can do anything he decides to do, or are there some things he tries to do and fails to accomplish?

[mfbukowski]

No problem. Please start a discussion titled, "What is truth?" Or something like that. I'd like to participate.

Nice dodge.

 

You use the term here and your posts require an understanding of your terms, but you won't answer here?  You refuse to answer my questions and ask me to pick one.

 

I picked one and you won't answer it.

[Sp0ckrates]

Nice dodge.

You use the term here and your posts require an understanding of your terms, but you won't answer here? You refuse to answer my questions and ask me to pick one.

I picked one and you won't answer it.

Wouldn't a prolonged discussion trying to find the answer to the question Pilot asked Jesus derail this thread?

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63733-stop-derailing/#entry1209392775

I think it is a great question to spend time discussing. I just don't think this is the place to discuss it.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Bobbieaware]

Very good. So we should believe God is omnibenevolent, but be less certain God is omniscient. What about omnipotence? Does the Mormon faith teach God can do anything he decides to do, or are there some things he tries to do and fails to accomplish?

The LDS God knows all things things and has all power to accomplish all things that are in harmony with the eternal laws of truth, righteousness and holiness. Just because he is God does not give him free-rein to to violate those immutable laws. Those who waver in their faith that God is perfect in every way are less blessed than those who never waver in their faith in his perfection. The greater the confidence and faith in God's perfection, the more confirming spiritual evidence is provided that reveals he is indeed perfect in every way.

[Sp0ckrates]

The LDS God knows all things things and has all power to accomplish all things that are in harmony with the eternal laws of truth, righteousness and holiness. Just because he is God does not give him free-rein to to violate those immutable laws. Those who waver in their faith that God is perfect in every way are less blessed than those who never waver in their faith in his perfection. The greater the confidence and faith in God's perfection, the more confirming spiritual evidence is provided that reveals he is indeed perfect in every way.

OK, I have to apologize for becoming confused. Please forgive me.

I thought you said we don't know that God is perfect in knowledge of the future, because there might be some things of which he does not have perfect knowledge.

Now you seem to be saying we should not waiver in our faith that God is perfect in every way, which I think would mean he is perfect in every way including his knowledge of the future.

Which of these two statements is true?

Edited June 8, 2015 by Sp0ckrates