Bobbieaware Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Thank you. Not feeling well. Getting some sleep, now. Will retread Alma 31 - 32 and carefully consider your reply, tomorrow. Much appreciated. Hope you feel better tomorrow.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 12, 2015 Author Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) No wonder why you're confused. Go back and retread Alma 32 and you'll see your LDS friend is in error. (I was tempted to put it another way, but that wouldn't be nice )Edited to add: The Zoramites weren't exercising real faith because, as Alma said: " 21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, WHICH ARE TRUE." Therefore, the Zoramites were exercising false faith in things WHICH ARE NOT TRUE. In order for faith to be the authentic saving kind of faith, one must hope for things WHICH ARE TRUE.Yes, I think I see. This verse seems to me to say the same:Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.(Alma 32:26)If faith is not perfect knowledge, and one has perfect knowledge of something, then I suppose one can no longer have active faith in that thing. Whether this lack of active faith is no faith or a dormant faith, I'm not sure. However, I suppose that if Jesus was looking me in the eye and speaking to me and reached out and put his hand on my shoulder, I suppose I would have perfect knowledge that he does exist. But I'm not sure it would be accurate to say I have no faith he exists, for an athirst has no faith he exists. To say I have dormant faith might indeed be less ambiguous than saying I have no faith. So yes, I'm more willing now to accept the idea that a dormant faith is a once active faith now made dormant by perfect knowledge. What I still have trouble understanding and hope (but am not confident enough to say I have faith) that you will take time to discuss with me is this: How can God have perfect knowledge of everything he will do before he does it and still have active faith? If you would like to think through this with me, please tell me: Why do you think God the Father has faith? Is there a biblical or Book of Mormon passage that tells us God has faith? For example, did you have this passage in mind?Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.(Hebrews 11:3) Edited June 12, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted June 13, 2015 Author Posted June 13, 2015 Bukowski: Are you interested in me starting a new discussion to answer your question, "What is Truth"? Or have I worn out my welcome?Guess you aren't interested. No problem. I have enjoyed our conversation.
Bobbieaware Posted June 13, 2015 Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Yes, I think I see. This verse seems to me to say the same:Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.(Alma 32:26)If faith is not perfect knowledge, and one has perfect knowledge of something, then I suppose one can no longer have active faith in that thing. Whether this lack of active faith is no faith or a dormant faith, I'm not sure. However, I suppose that if Jesus was looking me in the eye and speaking to me and reached out and put his hand on my shoulder, I suppose I would have perfect knowledge that he does exist. But I'm not sure it would be accurate to say I have no faith he exists, for an athirst has no faith he exists. To say I have dormant faith might indeed be less ambiguous than saying I have no faith. So yes, I'm more willing now to accept the idea that a dormant faith is a once active faith now made dormant by perfect knowledge. What I still have trouble understanding and hope (but am not confident enough to say I have faith) that you will take time to discuss with me is this: How can God have perfect knowledge of everything he will do before he does it and still have active faith? If you would like to think through this with me, please tell me: Why do you think God the Father has faith? Is there a biblical or Book of Mormon passage that tells us God has faith? For example, did you have this passage in mind?Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.(Hebrews 11:3)When it comes to faith in Christ, having a sure knowledge of his existence would not at all bring to an end the indespensibe need to continue to have great faith in him. As Paul said, God's goal for each of us is to become "a perfect man" and to obtain within ourselves what Paul calls "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Chris." So even after seeing and handling Christ there's a great deal of spiritual growth that needs to be accomplished, and that spiritual growth can only be effectively realized by an inspiring, motivating, and dynamically active faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The disciples of Christ saw and handled the resurrected Christ, but as the New Testament so abundantly testifies, a lifetime of sanctification by exercising living faith in Christ still waited ahead for each of them. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3) Edited June 13, 2015 by Bobbieaware
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Guess you aren't interested. No problem. I have enjoyed our conversation.Done it a hundred times. Look up the threads. And of course I am fully capable of starting my own new thread on that thread-bare topic if I wanted to. Besides that, I have already posted all I have to say about that here, but of course you didn't read it.http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/ Edited June 14, 2015 by mfbukowski
Sp0ckrates Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) When it comes to faith in Christ, having a sure knowledge of his existence would not at all bring to an end the indespensibe need to continue to have great faith in him. As Paul said, God's goal for each of us is to become "a perfect man" and to obtain within ourselves what Paul calls "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Chris." So even after seeing and handling Christ there's a great deal of spiritual growth that needs to be accomplished, and that spiritual growth can only be effectively realized by an inspiring, motivating, and dynamically active faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The disciples of Christ saw and handled the resurrected Christ, but as the New Testament so abundantly testifies, a lifetime of sanctification by exercising living faith in Christ still waited ahead for each of them. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3)Thank you, Bobbieaware. So are you making this inference from Philippians 3? Since we are to become gods, God himself must have become God. Edited June 14, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 Done it a hundred times. Look up the threads. And of course I am fully capable of starting my own new thread on that thread-bare topic if I wanted to.Besides that, I have already posted all I have to say about that here, but of course you didn't read it.http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/I did read it, my friend. Why do you think I did not?
Sp0ckrates Posted June 15, 2015 Author Posted June 15, 2015 I want to thank everyone for helping me to think this through and get closer to the truth. May God continue to bless you all with increasing faith, love and perfect knowledge. You guys are the best!
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