Wondering About Dormant Faith

[Sp0ckrates]

Once one possesses knowledge that a physical object exists, the object may be removed from his view, but its impressions remain in his mind because his faculties have translated the physical object into a subjective thought, and of course this only happens when that object holds sufficient personal meaning to him, otherwise he would pay it no mind at all (many things pass by us unnoticed). It is faith in that motivates one to look and assess (it could be argued that instinct and autonomic processes are expressions of borrowed faith).

One must also use faith or belief to hold the thought that a physical object exists based on another’s testimony, description, utility, appreciation, etc. of it. The same holds true for spiritual things, whether they are introduced to a person first, second or third hand. Because things exist both spiritually and physically, it really doesn’t matter whether they are introduced in either or both forms; knowledge will result from the faith to look and see.

I think it is possible to physically see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost while in mortal bodies if we are “quickened” (D&C 67: 11). In that case, the faith that They are physical Beings is replaced with knowledge. One would still need to exercise faith in Their spiritual attributes in order to comprehend Them (D&C 88:49). Like the people Alma spoke to, one needn’t see Them physically to know Them spiritually.

Do a word search of the LDS scriptures for the word “fullness” and you will see that this is attained in exaltation, which occurs in the next life. It applies to both knowledge and faith, because the two will always operate together. God exercised faith to create the Earth, and once it was created this faith became dormant, when He knew it was good (to go).

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

(John 3:12)

CV: The reason I used the sun as an example is I want to know how the concept of dormant faith applies to that which I am familiar before I dive into the deep spiritual truths about which I am unfamiliar. So forgive me for asking this, but please tell me plainly: Is my faith in the sun dormant when I see it and active when I don't?

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[CV75]

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

(John 3:12)

CV: The reason I used the sun as an example is I want to know how the concept of dormant faith applies to that which I am familiar before I dive into the deep spiritual truths about which I am unfamiliar. So forgive me for asking this, but please tell me plainly: Is my faith in the sun dormant when I see it and active when I don't?

Let's put it this way: it is dormant concerning that which you have concluded you have seen and concerning that which you have concluded that you know; it is active once you act in such as way as to see it more or see more of it, which includes sharing what you know and seeking further exploration.

[Sp0ckrates]

CV: Thank you. So I suppose that my conclusion that the sun exists would persist after it sets, and so my faith in its existence would remain dormant. Does this inference float?

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Yes. But just like everyone else he must first believe he can do something or make something happen before he makes the attempt, otherwise he wouldn't even try. Before he created and populated the earth, he first conceptualized and believed he could do it, and only then did he make the attempt. That's why even God himself, as Christ so amply demonstrated while ministering on earth -- needs faith. Christ said if a man had the faith of a mustard seed he could cast a great mountain into the depths of the sea. Can you imagine God the Son could have raised Lazarus from the dead without first having faith he could do so? Everything God does he does by faith. But just like the quality and capacity of his love, Christ's faith is perfect.

Yes, Bobbieaware. I also have faith God is omniscient, too.

And by saying God is omniscient, did Joseph Smith mean God has perfect knowledge of everything? Or did he mean something different?

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[CV75]

CV: Thank you. So I suppose that my conclusion that the sun exists would persist after it sets, and so my faith in its existence would remain dormant. Does this inference float?

If what you just said floats for you, that’s all that really counts!

 

I might not understand it the same way you do. Assuming you are using “conclusion” to denote that you possess “knowledge,” are you saying that because you would hold to your conclusion/knowledge after the sun sets, your pre-conclusion/knowledge faith concerning it, having been replaced with a correspondng conclusion or piece of knowledge concerning it, would remain dormant? I think this is what Alma is saying, although you could also hold to your conclusion/knowledge even when the sun hasn’t set.

 

And you can always rightly say these two things at the same time: “I have faith the sun exists” in one sense and “I know the sun exists” in another sense.

 

I’m going on vacation until mid-next week and so will not be able to participate in this thread. I do hope you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. Good luck!

[Bobbieaware]

Yes, Bobbieaware. I also have faith God is omniscient, too.

And by saying God is omniscient, did Joseph Smith mean God has perfect knowledge of everything? Or did he mean something different?

He does have perfect knowledge. But just as Alma says, rather than reducing his faith, God's perfect knowledge increases his faith. I have a perfect knowledge that I can type the word "faith" (which I just did), but faith was still required for me to type the word "faith" because typing requires effort. Where, in this instance, knowing something and exercising faith to do something leave off and begin, I don't know. But I know I simultaneously both know and believe I can type the word faith at the same moment in time.

One important thing to understand when discussing this issue, we Latter-day Saints believe God is not a dispassionate machine. Rather, we believe he is very much like us because he is human, and like all other humans, God lives by faith, hope, charity AND knowledge.

[Bobbieaware]

Yes, Bobbieaware. I also have faith God is omniscient, too.

And by saying God is omniscient, did Joseph Smith mean God has perfect knowledge of everything? Or did he mean something different?

He does have perfect knowledge. But just as Alma says, rather than it reducing his faith, God's perfect knowledge increases his faith. I have a perfect knowledge I can type the word "faith" (which I just did), but faith was still required for me to type that word because typing requires effort. Where, in this instance, knowing something and exercising faith to do something leave off and begin, I don't know. But I simultaneously both know AND believe I can type the word faith at the same moment in time.

One important thing to understand when discussing this issue is that we Latter-day Saints believe God is not a dispassionate machine. Rather, we believe he is very much like us because he is human, and like all other humans God lives by faith, hope, charity AND knowledge.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

If what you just said floats for you, that’s all that really counts!

I might not understand it the same way you do. Assuming you are using “conclusion” to denote that you possess “knowledge,” are you saying that because you would hold to your conclusion/knowledge after the sun sets, your pre-conclusion/knowledge faith concerning it, having been replaced with a correspondng conclusion or piece of knowledge concerning it, would remain dormant? I think this is what Alma is saying, although you could also hold to your conclusion/knowledge even when the sun hasn’t set.

And you can always rightly say these two things at the same time: “I have faith the sun exists” in one sense and “I know the sun exists” in another sense.

I’m going on vacation until mid-next week and so will not be able to participate in this thread. I do hope you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. Good luck!

Have a good trip, and thanks for helping me think it through. Blessings to you.

[Sp0ckrates]

He does have perfect knowledge. But just as Alma says, rather than reducing his faith, God's perfect knowledge increases his faith. I have a perfect knowledge that I can type the word "faith" (which I just did), but faith was still required for me to type the word "faith" because typing requires effort. Where, in this instance, knowing something and exercising faith to do something leave off and begin, I don't know. But I know I simultaneously both know and believe I can type the word faith at the same moment in time.

One important thing to understand when discussing this issue, we Latter-day Saints believe God is not a dispassionate machine. Rather, we believe he is very much like us because he is human, and like all other humans, God lives by faith, hope, charity AND knowledge.

Bobbieaware: And did we not earlier say that when one has perfect knowledge about a thing, his faith in that same thing becomes dormant?

[Bobbieaware]

Bobbieaware: And did we not earlier say that when one has perfect knowledge about a thing, his faith in that same thing becomes dormant?

This is the kind of thing that happens when a verse of scripture is taken out of its context and unduly focused on in isolation, without attempting to use the surrounding verses to gain a fuller understanding of what it is the writer is actually trying to say. You've focused on Alma's use of the the word dormant as if the prophet is daring to say knowledge obviates the need for increased faith, when Alma himself says the exact opposite in the very same chapter. Here's what he says:

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I SAY UNTO YOU, YEA; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? YEA, IT WILL STRENGTHEN YOUR FAITH: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. (Alma 32)

Another major point where you may be making a mistake is that in the very verse where Alma speaks of faith becoming dormant, he is not at all speaking of the undeniable kind of sure knowledge, like seeing the sun with one's own eyes as it shines brightly in his face. Rather, he is speaking of a much more subjective form of knowledge, the kind of knowledge that stems from the FEELINGS of spiritual growth one experiences when touched by the Spirit of God. And as most know, this kind of knowledge is much, much easier to deny and walk away from if one chooses to backslide and walk away from the faith.

Finally, as I said in an earlier post, dormant faith can still be extremely powerful faith. All the power and glory of dynamic faith is still very much alive, but it simply takes a very temporary back seat as the man of faith celebrates a partial realization of his faith. Think of the brief period of joy Mary and Martha experienced after their brother Lazarus was raised from the dead, which brief moment of rejoicing in knowledge was cut short by a new and even greater trial of faith when Christ was arrested, tortured, crucified and laid dead in a tomb.

[Sp0ckrates]

This is the kind of thing that happens when a verse of scripture is taken out of its context and unduly focused on in isolation, without attempting to use the surrounding verses to gain a fuller understanding of what it is the writer is actually trying to say. You've focused on Alma's use of the the word dormant as if the prophet is daring to say knowledge obviates the need for increased faith, when Alma himself says the exact opposite in the very same chapter. Here's what he says:

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I SAY UNTO YOU, YEA; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? YEA, IT WILL STRENGTHEN YOUR FAITH: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. (Alma 32)

Another major point where you may be making a mistake is that in the very verse where Alma speaks of faith becoming dormant, he is not at all speaking of the undeniable kind of sure knowledge, like seeing the sun with one's own eyes as it shines brightly in his face. Rather, he is speaking of a much more subjective form of knowledge, the kind of knowledge that stems from the FEELINGS of spiritual growth one experiences when touched by the Spirit of God. And as most know, this kind of knowledge is much, much easier to deny and walk away from if one chooses to backslide and walk away from the faith.

Finally, as I said in an earlier post, dormant faith can still be extremely powerful faith. All the power and glory of dynamic faith is still very much alive, but it simply takes a very temporary back seat as the man of faith celebrates a partial realization of his faith. Think of the brief period of joy Mary and Martha experienced after their brother Lazarus was raised from the dead, which brief moment of rejoicing in knowledge was cut short by a new and even greater trial of faith when Christ was arrested, tortured, crucified and laid dead in a tomb.

Thank you for pointing out my error. Glad you are here to help me come to a more perfect knowledge of faith.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

(Proverbs 27:6)

Your help shows you to be a true friend and is much appreciated.

Is this the truth you are helping me to to see?

A dormant faith can still be a great faith, because Jesus actively used his dormant faith to raise people from the dead.

.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Bobbieaware]

Thank you for pointing out my error. Glad you are here to help me come to a more perfect knowledge of faith.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

(Proverbs 27:6)

Your help shows you to be a true friend and is much appreciated.

Is this the truth you are helping me to to see? A dormant faith can still be a great faith, because Jesus actively used his dormant faith to raise people from the dead.

.

A dormant volcano can explode without warning and destroy everything and everyone in sight. Just ask the people Pompeii.

Alma's expression cannot be properly understood outside of its context. As the following verses clearly explain, the knowledge that comes when faith is fulfilled by continued spiritual growth greatly increases one's OVERAL FAITH. The impression that one's overal faith goes to sleep and becomes inactive as one gains more and more knowledge is incorrect. Alma couldn't make this point anymore clear. Your're making more of his use of the word dormant than what he intended. His point is that as one's faith becomes dormant in some things, that same faith simultaneously becomes much more powerful in others. Read the following carefully and see for yourself.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit. (Alma 32)

Edited June 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Maedros]

Faith is always active, it is the moving cause of all action and it is a principle of power (Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith). The dormancy of faith refers to faith in a particular thing - my faith in prayer may be dormant or lacking if I cease to pray but my faith in sleeping and waking up isn't, my faith that I will get through to a client if I dial his number is active but my faith that I will make my monthly target may not be. Faith is not limited to religious beliefs/practices or spirituality - it is all encompassing and involves every aspect of our lives - there is nothing we do without faith. 

[Sp0ckrates]

A dormant volcano can explode without warning and destroy everything and everyone in sight. Just ask the people Pompeii.

Agreed. A dormant volcano can cease to be dormant.

Alma's expression cannot be properly understood outside of its context. As the following verses clearly explain, the knowledge that comes when faith is fulfilled by continued spiritual growth greatly increases one's OVERAL FAITH. The impression that one's overal faith goes to sleep and becomes inactive as one gains more and more knowledge is incorrect. Alma couldn't make this point anymore clear.

Yes, I understand.

. Your're making more of his use of the word dormant than what he intended. His point is that as one's faith becomes dormant in some things, that same faith simultaneously becomes much more powerful in others. Read the following carefully and see for yourself.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant...

I must apologize for once again being clear as mud. Please forgive me and let me try to explain:

I'm not asking about the nature of faith is in you or me. I'm asking about the nature of faith in God. What I understand--or what I misunderstand--from our good conversation is this:

1. Perfect knowledge of a specific thing causes one to have dormant faith in that one I thing, but doesn't cause one to have dormant faith in every related thing.

2. If one has imperfect knowledge about (a) and perfect knowledge about (b), then such a one can have active faith in (a) but can have only dormant faith in (b).

3. It is impossible to have an active faith in any one thing in which one has perfect knowledge.

4. God always has perfect knowledge of everything and there is never a moment when he has imperfect knowledge of anything

The inference I draw from these four premises is this:

(A) God can only have dormant faith and never has active faith

* * *

So please tell me my friend: Which of these premises is untrue? (1), (2), (3) or (4). Or if they are all true, what conclusion do they support instead of (A)?

Edited June 5, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Faith is always active, it is the moving cause of all action and it is a principle of power (Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith). The dormancy of faith refers to faith in a particular thing - my faith in prayer may be dormant or lacking if I cease to pray but my faith in sleeping and waking up isn't, my faith that I will get through to a client if I dial his number is active but my faith that I will make my monthly target may not be. Faith is not limited to religious beliefs/practices or spirituality - it is all encompassing and involves every aspect of our lives - there is nothing we do without faith.

Welcome to the discussion, Maedros. So whether or not you believe in the Book of Mormon, would you say premise (2) is true?

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

(Alma 32:34)

1. The faith the people Alma spoke to always had been dormant and never had been active (Romans 12:3). For example, God gave them a measure of faith, but their faith was dormant, because they never had perfect knowledge before they heard Alma preach God's word.

2. The faith the people Alma spoke to was at one time active, but through a lack of putting the faith in practice, it became dormant (James 2:20). For example, the people had faith in the false teachings of the Zoramites before they met Alma (Alma 31). After Alma gave them the perfect knowledge of God's word, this false faith became dormant in them, since they no longer actively believed or practiced it.

3. The faith the people Alma spoke to was at one time active, but through observing incontrovertible proof that the object of the faith is real or actual or true, it became dormant, and was replaced by certainty (Hebrews 11:1). For example, before Alma spoke to them, they had an active faith. After hearing Alma speak, they had perfect knowledge, which transformed their active faith into a dormant one.

* * *

Or are you of the opinion that faith is never dormant in any way?

Edited June 5, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Calm]

A dormant volcano can explode without warning and destroy everything and everyone in sight. Just ask the people Pompeii.

 

You need to use another example.  They got a lot of warning:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vesuvius

[Bobbieaware]

You need to use another example. They got a lot of warning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vesuvius

Try Mount Ontake.

At any rate, it matters not. Alma was not teaching that believers lose faith as they gain spiritual knowledge - he was teaching the exact opposite. In Alma 32, Alma repeatedly declares FAITH IS INCREASED as we gain spiritual knowledge, that our faith grows in direct proportion to the spiritual knowledge we gain as our faith culminates in tangible results.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

Agreed. A dormant volcano can cease to be dormant.Yes, I understand.I must apologize for once again being clear as mud. Please forgive me and let me try to explain:

I'm not asking about the nature of faith is in you or me. I'm asking about the nature of faith in God. What I understand--or what I misunderstand--from our good conversation is this:

1. Perfect knowledge of a specific thing causes one to have dormant faith in that one I thing, but doesn't cause one to have dormant faith in every related thing.

2. If one has imperfect knowledge about (a) and perfect knowledge about (b), then such a one can have active faith in (a) but can have only dormant faith in (b).

3. It is impossible to have an active faith in any one thing in which one has perfect knowledge.

4. God always has perfect knowledge of everything and there is never a moment when he has imperfect knowledge of anything

The inference I draw from these four premises is this:

(A) God can only have dormant faith and never has active faith

* * *

So please tell me my friend: Which of these premises is untrue? (1), (2), (3) or (4). Or if they are all true, what conclusion do they support instead of (A)?

UNTIL God sees the actual successful end results of what he conceptualizes and plans, he is exercising faith. AFTER he sees the actual successful end results produced as tangible reality, his faith IN THAT ONE THING becomes dormant because belief has been supplanted by knowledge. Joseph Smith taught that faith is the indispensable spiritual principle of power that causes all intelligent beings, including God, to engage in ACTION. So God cannot engage in any action unless he first has faith he can make real that which has not yet become reality. But once the focus of God's faith becomes a reality, his faith IN THAT ONE THING becomes dormant. But even though his faith in that one thing becomes dormant, the principle of faith is perfected within him for he knows that by his perfect faith he can do all things that are in harmony with the laws of eternal truth.

[Sp0ckrates]

...

Edited June 6, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Thank you, Bobbieaware. What you say reminds me of Paul's words:

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

(Romans 4:17)

And the thought of this creative power also brings to mind his advice:

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

(Philippians 4)

For I think there is nothing better than to consider the nature of God. From my simple understanding of God, I suppose there are three categories of attributes to his being:

• Omniscience

• Omnipotence

• Onnibenevolence

When I think of omniscience, I think of God knowing all in the past, present and future completely and perfectly, so that there is nothing he does not know that was, that is and that ever will be. As one example, David writes:

For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

(Psalm 139:4)

He knows my thoughts before I think them. He knows my life completely before I live it--everything I ever will say, think and do he knows it all before it happens.

My question: Would you say his knowledge of my future is perfect or imperfect?

.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Maybe God does not know what I think he knows? Please tell me: Does Mormonism teach God does not have perfect knowledge of the future?

Edited June 7, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Bobbieaware]

Thank you, Bobbieaware. What you say reminds me of Paul's words:

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

(Romans 4:17)

And the thought of this creative power also brings to mind his advice:

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

(Philippians 4)

For I think there is nothing better than to consider the nature of God. From my simple understanding of God, I suppose there are three categories of attributes to his being:

• Omniscience

• Omnipotence

• Onnibenevolence

When I think of omniscience, I think of God knowing all in the past, present and future completely and perfectly, so that there is nothing he does not know that was, that is and that ever will be. As one example, David writes:

For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

(Psalm 139:4)

He knows my thoughts before I think them. He knows my life completely before I live it--everything I ever will say, think and do he knows it all before it happens.

My question: Would you say his knowledge of my future is perfect or imperfect?

.

Attempting to fully understand the infinite and eternal mind of God with our imperfect minds seems quite a task. But one of the many great things about Mormonism is that God the Father is revealed to be a deeply caring and passionate MAN. Whether God knows your ultimate fate or not, I know not; but one thing is for sure, in Mormonism he sure doesn"t act as if he already knows your fate. What follows is a glimpse into heaven, where we see the prophet Enoch wonder in amazement as he sees the eternal God of heaven crying his eyes out because he's soon going to have to send forth the great floods to destroy the wicked before they harm their chances for salvation any further:

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?

30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

39 And that (Christ) which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen (Christ) shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;

40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands. (Moses 7)

Thoughtfully reading the above selection will reveal that God doesn't ACT like he already knows our fate. Rather, like the most loving and caring of earthly fathers, he takes our wickedness personally and it breaks his heart.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

Attempting to fully understand the infinite and eternal mind of God with our imperfect minds seems quite a task. But one of the many great things about Mormonism is that God the Father is revealed to be a deeply caring and passionate MAN. Whether God knows your ultimate fate or not, I know not; but one thing is for sure, in Mormonism he sure doesn"t act as if he already knows your fate. What follows is a glimpse into heaven, where we see the prophet Enoch wonder in amazement as he sees the eternal God of heaven crying his eyes out because he's soon going to have to send forth the great floods to destroy the wicked before they harm their chances for salvation any further:

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?

30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

39 And that (Christ) which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen (Christ) shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;

40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands. (Moses 7)

Thoughtfully reading the above selection will reveal that God doesn't ACT like he already knows our fate. Rather, like the most loving and caring of earthly fathers, he takes our wickedness personally and it breaks his heart.

Yes, I read this carefully, as I did the other passages you quoted. Thanks for providing them.

I guess I'd say in response this: If someone caused me intense emotional pain right now, I might cry. If I were to have a vivid recollection of such emotional pain years later, I might also cry. I think you might say that I have perfect knowledge of that cause of pain.

Now if I could know the future as well as I know the present and past, then I think I might cry even then, for as God my knowledge of the future would be as real and certain and perfect as my knowledge of the past and present. They would all be much the same to me.

But there is something Jesus said that gives me reason to believe God the Father does know the future:

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

(Matthew 24)

"That day and hour knoweth no man, but my Father only..." he says.

But please tell me, my friend: Why would a show of sadness over some event yet to come be evidence that God does not know the future in a way similar to the way he knows the past and present?

.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Bobbieaware]

Yes, I read this carefully, as I did the other passages you quoted. Thanks for providing them.

I guess I'd say in response this: If someone caused me intense emotional pain right now, I might cry. If I were to have a vivid recollection of such emotional pain years later, I might also cry. I think you might say that I have perfect knowledge of that cause of pain.

Now if I could know the future as well as I know the present and past, then I think I might cry even then, for as God my knowledge of the future would be as real and certain and perfect as my knowledge of the past and present. They would all be much the same to me.

So please tell me, my friend: Why would a show of sadness over some event yet to come be evidence that God does not know the future in a way similar to the way he knows the past and present?

.

If you will recall, I said I didn't know the answer to the question as to whether God knows beforehand all things in every minute particular. My point in quoting those verses from Moses 7 is that God doesn't ACT like he does. In the verses I quoted, God is reacting to what is happening in the moment -- there is no hint of looking off into the far future when all has been said and done. And since God cannot lie and cannot deceive, I believe we are seeing God as he really is. He's not putting on an act to make us believe he cares about what's going in the present when he really doesn't. If God can genuinely react and live in the present, I see no need to worry about whether or not he knows every end result from the beginning.

In addition, if you understood those verses, you realized that even though God is going to send the floods he hasn't at all given up on those who will be destroyed in the floods. In fact, the floods are being sent for the ultimate salvation of those being destroyed because, after suffering death in the flesh and after spending time in the spirit prison (hell), those so consigned will be prepared to finally repent and and receive salvation by coming unto Christ in full sincerity of heart. So though God could foresee most of those destroyed in the floods would ultimately receive salvation, he wept because of all the suffering they would have to experience prior to the day of their redemption.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

If you will recall, I said I didn't know the answer to the question as to whether God knows beforehand all things in every minute particular. My point in quoting those verses from Moses 7 is that God doesn't ACT like he does. In the verses I quoted, God is reacting to what is happening in the moment -- there is no hint of looking off into the far future when all has been said and done. And since God cannot lie and cannot deceive, I believe we are seeing God as he really is. He's not putting on an act to make us believe he cares about what's going in the present when he really doesn't. If God can genuinely react and live in the present, I see no need to worry about whether or not he knows every end result from the beginning.

I guess I don't understand. Why would God reacting to the present be acting like he does not know the future? Why would God having perfect knowledge of the future cause him to not care about the present?

In addition, if you understood those verses, you realized that even though God is going to send the floods he hasn't at all given up on those who will be destroyed in the floods. In fact, the floods are being sent for the ultimate salvation of those being destroyed because, after suffering death in the flesh and after spending time in the spirit prison (hell), those so consigned will be prepared to finally repent and and receive salvation by coming unto Christ in full sincerity of heart. So though God could foresee most of those destroyed in the floods would ultimately receive salvation, he wept because of all the suffering they would have to experience prior to the day of their redemption.

I guess I still don't understand how this relates to the question of whether there is any evidence God does not have perfect knowledge of everything, including the future. My thought is that David's and Jesus' statements are evidence that he does have such knowledge, or something approaching it. David says the Lord knows his thoughts before he thinks them. Jesus says God the Father knows the exact day and hour of his return to earth. Edited June 7, 2015 by Sp0ckrates