mfbukowski Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 . Correct opinion is that which is the same as God's own opinion. Did I answer correctly, now? .Correct is in the eye of the beholder, but I still don't know how you propose to prove anything is "God's own opinion"?? Because some scribe wrote it and by accident it got included in the Bible?
mfbukowski Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Well, it's not exactly altruistic. Like Socrates, I'm selfishly hoping to reap the benefits of learning from others, as he said: For the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is this: That whereas he seeks to convince his hearers what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself! (Phaedo) I'm not into partisan politics, partisan philosophy or partisan religion. I'm not trying to convince anyone of God's opinion, as if that is something I apprehend with any certainty. But I am hoping someone like you, Bobbieaware, Maedros or ERayR will convince me. I also hope this explanation puts your mind at ease about my intentions. If it does, perhaps you won't mind getting this discussion "back on track" and returning to the question of the opening post? Sure, I will be glad to leave. But I thought you were here to hear from everyone. And quoting Plato does not move the conversation ahead. I am open to new ideas but unfortunately haven't seen any yet. Yours are 2000 years old and I read them 40 years ago.
mfbukowski Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 I also hope this explanation puts your mind at ease about my intentions. If it does, perhaps you won't mind getting this discussion "back on track" and returning to the question of the opening post? Go for it. Figure out all the details of "dormant faith". Sorry for the derail, if you see it that way, but I am out.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 9, 2015 Author Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Sure, I will be glad to leave.But I thought you were here to hear from everyone. And quoting Plato does not move the conversation ahead. I am open to new ideas but unfortunately haven't seen any yet.Yours are 2000 years old and I read them 40 years ago.You're an odd fellow. I didn't ask you to leave, and I've never said I have anything new to say. Indeed, it's the opposite: I've come here to ask what Mormons believe and why. I haven't come here to tell Mormons what I believe and why they should believe the same. Edited June 9, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted June 9, 2015 Author Posted June 9, 2015 Correct is in the eye of the beholder, but I still don't know how you propose to prove anything is "God's own opinion"??Because some scribe wrote it and by accident it got included in the Bible?I think you and I must both agree God's opinion is always correct. Since his opinion is always correct, please tell me: How does a Mormon like yourself know when something is God's opinion and when something is not God's opinion?
mfbukowski Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 You're an odd fellow. I didn't ask you to leave and I've never said I have anything new to say. Indeed, it's the opposite--I'm asking, not telling.But after all I said, you are still chasing ambiguous definitions of words saying both that you WANT to learn and turning your back on all that you might have learned about what you thought in the beginning? You want to go back there and ignore all the input??And I am the odd fellow??
Sp0ckrates Posted June 9, 2015 Author Posted June 9, 2015 Go for it. Figure out all the details of "dormant faith". Sorry for the derail, if you see it that way, but I am out.Out again, my friend? I'm sincerely sorry to see you go. Hope you know that you are always welcome to stop by anytime. Take care and may God continue to bless.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 9, 2015 Author Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) But after all I said, you are still chasing ambiguous definitions of words saying both that you WANT to learn and turning your back on all that you might have learned about what you thought in the beginning? You want to go back there and ignore all the input??And I am the odd fellow??Hey! I resemble that remark! But I did answer your question, I think. You asked, "What is truth?" My answer is: "Truth is God's opinion." Though this is nothing new, it's certainly true.I think this is at least one thing we can agree on. Thanks for thought-provoking discussion. Edited June 9, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
mfbukowski Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 I think you and I must both agree God's opinion is always correct. Since his opinion is always correct, please tell me: How does a Mormon like yourself know when something is God's opinion and when something is not God's opinion?I thought you would never ask. Direct personal revelation.James 1:5 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Ask God and he will give you wisdom. Not words, not what others say, but direct from God.Moroni 10: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. Ask God and he will give you wisdom.Alma 32 17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe. 18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it...... 26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge. 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. Believe on his words and they will become "delicious" to you That's the only way!
Sp0ckrates Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 Hey you asked!Glad I did! So are you saying that if two Mormons want to know God's opinion about the same passage of the Book of Mormon, all they must do is ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, and he will manifest the same truth of it unto both of them by the power of the Holy Ghost?
mfbukowski Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Glad I did!So are you saying that if two Mormons want to know God's opinion about the same passage of the Book of Mormon, all they must do is ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, and he will manifest the same truth of it unto both of them by the power of the Holy Ghost?No. It doesn't have to be the "same"- why should it be? God is our personal tutor. You need to learn different things than I need to learn, and vice versa. We all build our individual understandings of where we stand with God. Isn't that exactly what you are doing right now? Some need to learn calculus someone else, their multiplication tables. Children need to learn differently than adults. One answer does not fit all people.
mfbukowski Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 If we each ask God "what should I do"? should the answer be the same for both of us?
Sp0ckrates Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) No. It doesn't have to be the "same"- why should it be?God is our personal tutor. You need to learn different things than I need to learn, and vice versa. We all build our individual understandings of where we stand with God.Isn't that exactly what you are doing right now?Some need to learn calculus someone else, their multiplication tables. Children need to learn differently than adults. One answer does not fit all people.Well, I think it does if the truths the two believe to have received are contradictory. Don't you? Let's say two Mormons pray about the truth of the Godhead. One tells you God tevealed the truth to her to be that there are three Gods in one Godhead. The other says God revealed to him that there are three persons in one God, and there are not three Gods. Would you say God revealed both of these truths? Or would you say God revealed only one of these truths, and the other is a deception not from God? Edited June 10, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 Which does God tell you, Bukowski is his opinion--that both revelations could be from him, or that he would only reveal one of the two?
Sp0ckrates Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 After an awkward pause, the silence is mercifully broken by the gentle chirping of a cricket.
mfbukowski Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Well, I think it does if the truths the two believe to have received are contradictory. Don't you? Let's say two Mormons pray about the truth of the Godhead. One tells you God tevealed the truth to her to be that there are three Gods in one Godhead. The other says God revealed to him that there are three persons in one God, and there are not three Gods. Would you say God revealed both of these truths? Or would you say God revealed only one of these truths, and the other is a deception not from God?No I am sorry- I have confused you- my fault! Your original question was about two MORMONS reading the Book of Mormon and getting two different interpretations of some innocuous passage- or at least that is what I took the question to be. God teaches us what we need to know to grow closer to him so YOUR answer might be different than mine if you asked God what church you should join. One of us might be "ahead" of the other person and so we could receive two different answers. Or two Mormons could receive different answers on questions like I indicated- "What should I do" because of course what I should do in a given situation might be different than what someone else should do in a similar situation. A drunk on skid row needs to get off alcohol and drugs and follow a path to get himself there while someone without that problem can skip that step. So on things like that which are individualized one can get different answers. But our church believes that indeed one must have a "testimony"- ie: a direct witness from God, that the church is "true" before one joins it. That means that of the 15 million Mormons out there, the vast vast VAST majority have gotten a spiritual confirmation that the central doctrines of the church ARE as they are taught. So no Mormons believe in the Trinity. I say "no Mormons" meaning there may be a tiny minority who do- but are actually in violation of what the church believes. So it would be like being an "evangelical" who does not believe that Jesus is the Christ. Perhaps he was born into that church and actually attends, but thinks it is a bunch of silliness. Or a baptist who does not believe in baptism. And so with Mormons. Some might not believe the same doctrines the church teaches, but can they be called a "Mormon" really? Can you be a "Democrat" and not vote for Obama? I am sure there are some, but it makes no sense to me to be a "Democrat" if you are not supporting the party So remember- "true" means "I agree". It can't be defined in any other way- you yourself cannot define it. So those who think a doctrine is "true" are those who "agree" that one should observe and act on that belief. There is no abstract realm of "TRUTH" floating around out there- there are only human beings agreeing on what principles they know God has shown them.
mfbukowski Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) After an awkward pause, the silence is mercifully broken by the gentle chirping of a cricket.Uh, even I have to drive home from work and put down the computer occasionally. I think they call it "having a life". So now mr nice guy comes out, huh? Pardon me for neglecting you for a whole hour and a half. These things ARE time stamped you know. This is just childish. Edited June 10, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Well, I think it does if the truths the two believe to have received are contradictory. Don't you? Let's say two Mormons pray about the truth of the Godhead. One tells you God tevealed the truth to her to be that there are three Gods in one Godhead. The other says God revealed to him that there are three persons in one God, and there are not three Gods. Would you say God revealed both of these truths? Or would you say God revealed only one of these truths, and the other is a deception not from God?And incidentally these are not "contradictory.""God" is like "a committee" of persons each of whom is a God. The collective is called "God"- so three persons one God. It is a family. There's mama Jones papa Jones and baby Jones. Three persons in one Jones family Each person is named Jones. Three Jones in one Jones family. One Jones family, three jones people NO inconsistency Just words being ambiguous Edited June 10, 2015 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) chirp chirp chirp I demand immediate gratification. Edited June 10, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
Bobbieaware Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 chirp chirp chirp I demand immediate gratification.LOL!!!
mfbukowski Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Which does God tell you, Bukowski is his opinion--that both revelations could be from him, or that he would only reveal one of the two?My God hears and answers individual prayers. He can walk and chew gum at the same time and give each person the answer they need He is my Father, not an ineffable Form of Platonic Truth hiding in a Transcendent Realm of TRUTH not caring about his children In a single word, the answer is "BOTH" lest I be misunderstood Edited June 10, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
Sp0ckrates Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) chirp chirp chirpI demand immediate gratification.Guess that makes me a hypocricket? LOL! Sorry, Indiana is one of the few Midwestern states in the Eastern Timezone. Please forgive to childish remark. I'm sometimes too playful for my own good and cross the line. But I'm better than I used to be. Guess kind people like yourself are rubbing off on me. Edited June 10, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
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