Wondering About Dormant Faith

[mfbukowski]

Rephrasing my example to that extent changes its point. More reflective rephrasing of my example is this:

 

1. All mortals know we cannot raise ourselves from the dead.

2. Jesus was a mortal.

3. Jesus rose from the dead.

 

You asked for an example of “God's ways seeming to be illogical…”

You won't get anywhere with this guy.  I have met him before I am certain.  There is no end to it, no conclusions or even reasonable discussion is possible.  Endless chatter is all you will get, and repeating the same question again and again.

[mfbukowski]

Yes, sorry for being clear as mud. Please explain why you think it is unimportant to try to understand my view of faith and hope.

I have already done that three times, and all you do is repeat the same question.  I have tried to be kind because you are new, but at this point it is getting purely obnoxious.  There is no discussion- all you do is pontificate with no evidence of understanding the issues or replies.

 

I am certain you are "brainburn" a poster from long ago, or at least his clone.   If you are not, search his posts and perhaps you can start conversing with him.  You are a perfect match for him.

[Sp0ckrates]

I couldn't come up with any sound inferences--that is why I concluded it is an example of something that seems illogical! As long as there is no standard threshold for inferring anything, there will be different perceptions of what seems logical. For example, there is no room for Jesus being something other than mortal, or knowing other than what all mortals know.

Granted, with faith we can qualify the facts by adding things the eye cannot see; the logic changes as a result; I think that is another way of getting to the truth!

Yes--I had already run through that, your first one, and others before deciding not to post them because none of them seemed consistent with the arguments as laid out.

I concur! Another logical argument:

1. All mortals know we cannot raise ourselves from the dead.

2. Jesus was a mortal.

3. Jesus rose from the dead.

Therefore,

A. God the Father must have given Jesus the power to raise himself from the dead.

Notice that the same premises support three different conclusions. So logic does not prove an inference is correct. It only proves an inference is not illogical. You can do the same with other logical arguments people make here, or at another forum. Just be creative and imagine what other inferences you might make from their premises. That way you can say their premises are true (you can agree they have made no factual errors), but suggest an alternate conclusion.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[ERayR]

You won't get anywhere with this guy.  I have met him before I am certain.  There is no end to it, no conclusions or even reasonable discussion is possible.  Endless chatter is all you will get, and repeating the same question again and again.

 

Round and round and round and . . .

[Sp0ckrates]

I have already done that three times, and all you do is repeat the same question. I have tried to be kind because you are new, but at this point it is getting purely obnoxious. There is no discussion- all you do is pontificate with no evidence of understanding the issues or replies.

I am certain you are "brainburn" a poster from long ago, or at least his clone. If you are not, search his posts and perhaps you can start conversing with him. You are a perfect match for him.

OK. I appreciate you giving your time. God bless.

[Sp0ckrates]

Round and round and round and . . .

Et tu, ERay?

[mfbukowski]

Round and round and round and . . .

And this is ridiculous

1. Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead

2. Only God can raise someone from the dead

3. Jesus rose from the dead

Therefore

A. Jesus is the only God who can raise the dead

Think about it.

 

We have a premise about something Jesus said.

 

Another premise which has nothing to do with the first.  (God raising people has nothing to do with what Jesus said.  Jesus could have been lying)

 

The conclusion begs the question that Jesus is God.  It is a circular argument.  Perhaps you could conclude that "God rose Jesus from the dead" but certainly nothing about Jesus being God from this argument

 

From that first premise you can only conclude something about what Jesus said, not anything at all about who he IS

 

Just wanted to point that out.  He will continue badgering forever.  It's pointless.  I am out.

[Sp0ckrates]

OK, so I'm curious if everyone here sees (3) as the only possibility for correctly interpreting the passage.

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

(Alma 32:34)

1. The faith the people Alma spoke to always had been dormant and never had been active (Romans 12:3). For example, God gave them a measure of faith, but their faith was dormant, because they never had perfect knowledge before they heard Alma preach God's word.

2. The faith the people Alma spoke to was at one time active, but through a lack of putting the faith in practice, it became dormant (James 2:20). For example, the people had faith in the false teachings of the Zoramites before they met Alma. After Alma gave them the perfect knowledge of God's word, this false faith became dormant in them, since they no longer actively believed or practiced it.

3. The faith the people Alma spoke to was at one time active, but through observing incontrovertible proof that the object of the faith is real or actual or true, it became dormant, and was replaced by certainty (Hebrews 11:1). For example, before Alma spoke to them, they had an active faith. After hearing Alma speak, they had perfect knowledge, which transformed their active faith into a dormant one.

Does anyone think (1) or (2) might be true?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

And this is ridiculous

Are you saying the premises CV75 did provide are ridiculous? If so, I don't see why.

Think about it.

We have a premise about something Jesus said.

Another premise which has nothing to do with the first. (God raising people has nothing to do with what Jesus said. Jesus could have been lying)

The conclusion begs the question that Jesus is God. It is a circular argument. Perhaps you could conclude that "God rose Jesus from the dead" but certainly nothing about Jesus being God from this argument

From that first premise you can only conclude something about what Jesus said, not anything at all about who he IS

Just wanted to point that out. He will continue badgering forever. It's pointless. I am out.

I hope you will forgive me for repeating myself, but I sincerely do appreciate you giving your time and genuinely hope God will continue to bless you. Edited June 3, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[mfbukowski]

I hope you will forgive me for repeating myself, but I sincerely do appreciate you giving your time and genuinely hope God will continue to bless you.

I truly apologize, I had you confused with someone else.  God bless you on your journey.  The only answers you will find is what He gives you by revelation.

[Sp0ckrates]

I truly apologize, I had you confused with someone else. God bless you on your journey. The only answers you will find is what He gives you by revelation.

Honest mistake. No harm. No foul. Thanks again.

[Sp0ckrates]

OK, so I'm curious if everyone here sees (3) as the only possibility for correctly interpreting the passage.

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

(Alma 32:34)

1. The faith the people Alma spoke to always had been dormant and never had been active (Romans 12:3). For example, God gave them a measure of faith, but their faith was dormant, because they never had perfect knowledge before they heard Alma preach God's word.

2. The faith the people Alma spoke to was at one time active, but through a lack of putting the faith in practice, it became dormant (James 2:20). For example, the people had faith in the false teachings of the Zoramites before they met Alma. After Alma gave them the perfect knowledge of God's word, this false faith became dormant in them, since they no longer actively believed or practiced it.

3. The faith the people Alma spoke to was at one time active, but through observing incontrovertible proof that the object of the faith is real or actual or true, it became dormant, and was replaced by certainty (Hebrews 11:1). For example, before Alma spoke to them, they had an active faith. After hearing Alma speak, they had perfect knowledge, which transformed their active faith into a dormant one.

Does anyone think (1) or (2) might be true?

Or would anyone like to explain why (3) is true? (I'm having trouble grasping it.)

[Sp0ckrates]

I mean, I can see how (3) is true if the object of faith is never out of view. For example, when I see the sun with my eyes, I know the perfect truth that it exists, and I can see how my faith in the nearest star might be dormant. But as soon as the sun sets, I no longer see it, so I cease to have such perfect knowledge, and dormant faith comes back to life and is no longer dormant, I think.

But if we are speaking of spiritual truths, such as the existence of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, can we ever, while in mortal bodies seeing with mortal eyes, see them and so have dormant faith? Yes, someone like Paul might have had such dormant faith when he saw Jesus with his own eyes, but did the people to whom Alma spoke behold such a sight? So I wonder if such a perfect state of knowing and ceasing to have active faith in a spiritual truth is likely to happen on this side of eternity.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

But I'm not saying (3) is untrue. I'm just wondering why it is true.

[Bobbieaware]

I mean, I can see how (3) is true if the object of faith is never out of view. For example, when I see the sun with my eyes, I know the perfect truth that it exists, and I can see how my faith in the nearest star might be dormant. But as soon as the sun sets, I no longer see it, so I cease to have such perfect knowledge, and dormant faith comes back to life and is no longer dormant, I think.

But if we are speaking of spiritual truths, such as the existence of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, can we ever, while in mortal bodies seeing with mortal eyes, see them and so have dormant faith? Yes, someone like Paul might have had such dormant faith when he saw Jesus with his own eyes, but did the people to whom Alma spoke behold such a sight? So I wonder if such a perfect state of knowing and ceasing to have active faith in a spiritual truth is likely to happen on this side of eternity.

If you're going to go that far, what if in the end you learn life is a dream and the sun you think is real is just a figment of imagination? So in the end, each principle of knowledge gained is erected on a foundation of faith. That's why Paul says faith, hope and charity will endure forever. The need for faith will never be outgrown, even after all knowledge has been gained, because faith is believing things can or will happen before they happen. So within the framework of the gospel, knowledge is actually a form of faith. Knowledge is faith in its most powerful and sure form, because it requires faith to believe one's knowledge is real, and not illusory and ultimately meaningless.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

If you're going to go that far, what if in the end you learn life is a dream and the sun you think is real is just a figment of imagination?

Thanks for replying, Bobbyaware. Yes, that is a possibility, as was explored in the Matrix movies. We cannot be sure if we are awake, or dreaming, or in some kind of coma. We can only be sure that we think, so we are. So when I see the sun in my dream, I think what I'm experiencing is perfect knowledge. For I think the sun is real. But I'm actually deceived. So it is not perfect knowledge. It is only an illusion and a deception and therefore imperfect knowledge.

So in the end, each principle of knowledge gained is erected on a foundation of faith. That's why Paul says faith, hope and charity will endure forever. The need for faith will never be outgrown, even after all knowledge has been gained, because faith is believing things can or will happen before they happen.

I wonder if hope and faith would in fact remain once a person sees God face-to-face. Are you sure the word abideth means exists forever?

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

I'm not sure, because Paul asks:

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

(Romans 8:24)

Please tell me: What possible hope remains unfulfilled for the Mormon who finds herself in the presence of God?

So within the framework of the gospel, knowledge is actually a form of faith. Knowledge is faith in its most powerful and sure form, because it requires faith to believe one's knowledge is real, and not illusory and ultimately meaningless.

I tend to think that all faith is a kind of knowledge, but not all knowledge is a kind of faith. Doubt, for example is a kind of knowledge, yet I believe it is the opposite of faith.

To illustrate my point: Imagine three concentric circles. The outer circle is Faith. Inside the circle of faith is knowledge. There is no part of the circle of knowledge that is not inside the circle of faith. Now imagine a third circle inside the circle of knowledge, which is doubt. There is no part of the circle of doubt that is not inside the circle of knowledge. What do we see about doubt, then? We see it is a kind of faith. But this is not true! Doubt is not a kind of faith.

Now imagine the outer circle is knowledge. Inside the circle of knowledge are two circles that don't overlap and neither is inside the other. These two circles are faith and doubt. Here we see what apoears to be the truth: Doubt and faith are two different kind of knowledge.

So isn't the truth that faith is a kind or category or form of knowledge, rather than knowledge being a kind or category or form of faith?

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Bobbyaware: But if there are things for which we might continue to hope after we see God in heaven, and you don't think I'm ready to learn about them, just let me know.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Bobbieaware]

Thanks for replying, Bobbyaware. I wonder if hope and faith would in fact remain once a person sees God face-to-face. Are you sure the word abideth means exists forever?

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

I'm not sure, because Paul asks:

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

(Romans 8:24)

Please tell me: What possible hope remains unfulfilled for the Mormon who finds herself in the presence of God?

Lucifer, who was once a an angel of authority and power in the presence of God, was cast out of heaven with one third of the other angelic host for rebellion against God and wickedness. So knowing God exists is not enough, one must also emphatically jbelieve he is a true God who has our true happiness and eternal best interests at heart. The devils on earth know God and Christ exist, but they do not have faith in him and so their sure knowledge avails them absolutely nothing...

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2)

Edited June 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[CV75]

I mean, I can see how (3) is true if the object of faith is never out of view. For example, when I see the sun with my eyes, I know the perfect truth that it exists, and I can see how my faith in the nearest star might be dormant. But as soon as the sun sets, I no longer see it, so I cease to have such perfect knowledge, and dormant faith comes back to life and is no longer dormant, I think.

But if we are speaking of spiritual truths, such as the existence of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, can we ever, while in mortal bodies seeing with mortal eyes, see them and so have dormant faith? Yes, someone like Paul might have had such dormant faith when he saw Jesus with his own eyes, but did the people to whom Alma spoke behold such a sight? So I wonder if such a perfect state of knowing and ceasing to have active faith in a spiritual truth is likely to happen on this side of eternity.

Once one possesses knowledge that a physical object exists, the object may be removed from his view, but its impressions remain in his mind because his faculties have translated the physical object into a subjective thought, and of course this only happens when that object holds sufficient personal meaning to him, otherwise he would pay it no mind at all (many things pass by us unnoticed). It is faith in that motivates one to look and assess (it could be argued that instinct and autonomic processes are expressions of borrowed faith).

 

One must also use faith or belief to hold the thought that a physical object exists based on another’s testimony, description, utility, appreciation, etc. of it. The same holds true for spiritual things, whether they are introduced to a person first, second or third hand. Because things exist both spiritually and physically, it really doesn’t matter whether they are introduced in either or both forms; knowledge will result from the faith to look and see.

 

I think it is possible to physically see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost while in mortal bodies if we are “quickened” (D&C 67: 11). In that case, the faith that They are physical Beings is replaced with knowledge. One would still need to exercise faith in Their spiritual attributes in order to comprehend Them (D&C 88:49). Like the people Alma spoke to, one needn’t see Them physically to know Them spiritually.

 

Do a word search of the LDS scriptures for the word “fullness” and you will see that this is attained in exaltation, which occurs in the next life. It applies to both knowledge and faith, because the two will always operate together. God exercised faith to create the Earth, and once it was created this faith became dormant, when He knew it was good (to go).

[Sp0ckrates]

Lucifer, who was once a an angel of authority and power in the presence of God, was cast out of heaven with one third of the other angelic host for rebellion against God and wickedness. So knowing God exists is not enough, one must also emphatically jbelieve he is a true God who has our true happiness and eternal best interests at heart. The devils on earth know God and Christ exist, but they do not have faith in him and so their sure knowledge avails them absolutely nothing...

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2)

Thanks, Bobbyaware. Sorry for being confused. I'm not sure if you answered my question. How do devils having no faith demonstrate that faith survives the grave?

[CV75]

P.S. I think Ephesians 4:13 can be read to mean that the unity spoken of is the unity of faith and knowledge, which when possessed makes us like Christ, eventually a fullness of His stature.

[Bobbieaware]

Thanks, Bobbyaware. Sorry for being confused. I'm not sure if you answered my question. How do devils having no faith demonstrate that faith survives the grave?

The prophet Joseph Smith taught that, beside it's other definitions, faith is the power of God that enables any and all actions in intelligent creatures to take place. So without faith -- the power of God given to man through the atoning sacrifice of Christ -- the afterlife would be quiescent, with no activity of any sort taking place. Joseph Smith taught that a man wouldn't even get up and attempt to walk across a room (even though he may have previously done so thousands of other times) unless he first believes he can do it again. So without faith heaven would be a place where no one and nothing ever does anything other than remain totally inactive, both mentally and physically. In other words, everyone and everything would remain as dead. Without faith heaven would be an everlasting graveyard that would exist without any purpose or meaning.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

...

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

The prophet Joseph Smith taught that, beside it's other definitions, faith is the power of God that enables any and all actions in intelligent creatures to take place. So without faith -- the power of God given to man through the atoning sacrifice of Christ -- the afterlife would be quiescent, with no activity of any sort taking place. Joseph Smith taught that a man wouldn't even get up and attempt to walk across a room (even though he may have previously done so thousands of other times) unless he first believes he can do it again. So without faith heaven would be a place where no one and nothing ever does anything other than remain totally inactive, both mentally and physically. In other words, everyone and everything would remain as dead. Without faith heaven would be an everlasting graveyard that would exist without any purpose or meaning.

We are getting into some deep spiritual truths, here. At least they are deep to me. I'll let you know if I can't keep my head above water.

You mentioned Joseph Smith. Please tell me: Did he also believe God is omniscient?

[Bobbieaware]

Did Joseph Smith also teach God the Father is omniscient?

Yes. But just like everyone else he must first believe he can do something or make something happen before he makes the attempt, otherwise he wouldn't even try. Before he created and populated the earth, he first conceptualized and believed he could do it, and only then did he make the attempt. That's why even God himself, as Christ so amply demonstrated while ministering on earth -- needs faith. Christ said if a man had the faith of a mustard seed he could cast a great mountain into the depths of the sea. Can you imagine God the Son could have raised Lazarus from the dead without first having faith he could do so? Everything God does he does by faith. But just like the quality and capacity of his love, Christ's faith is perfect.