Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.(Alma 32:34)Hi. I'm new here. A Mormon friend of mine at another forum suggested I ask about this verse, here. I'm wondering what the words, "your faith is dormant" mean. I guess there are at least two possibilities:1. The faith they have was never active or used, so it had always been inactive or unused or dormant.2. The faith they have was at one time active or used, but it is now inactive or unused or dormant.I suppose possibility (1) might mean we are all born with faith, which is unknow to us until it is somehow awakened. Possibility (2) might mean the goal of every Christian is to make his or her faith about everything dormant or inactive. Both possibilities are something new to me and promise to make for some fascinating discoveries. Please tell me your thoughts on whether (1) or (2) or some other is true and explain why. Also feel free--but not obligated--to answer follow up questions, as I'm sure I'll have some.
Tacenda Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 The only thing I can come up with is in nature, when my pansies that are planted in the fall go dormant in the winter and come springtime aren't flat anymore and seem to come back to life. So it's not like they are dead but don't get the warmth or light needed to stand upright. My weird analogy, maybe humans need the light and warmth to ignite faith, sometimes it's blocked. Whether by their own doing or by outside forces.
Edither Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) I think it is dormant in the sense it is there not fully developed and when nourished it grows and brings forth fruitIt reminded me of this quote from a recent article in LDSmagazine.com entitled "Faith is a Decision not a Feeling"" I recall a character in Gerald Lund’s Work and the Glory series named Will. He struggled for months trying to get his own testimony of the truthfulness of the Church and the Book of Mormon, but felt nothing. Finally, one day he came across a scripture that contained the words, “”If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17). Will pondered the sequence of the words: “Do . . . . and then you shall know. . .” He finally recognized that he had been wanting to KNOW before he made the full effort to DO. But it is so often by the DOING that the KNOWING comes. When Will made the decision to be obedient, to move ahead and DO, the feeling of sure testimony followed soon after."Ed Edited May 31, 2015 by Edither
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 The only thing I can come up with is in nature, when my pansies that are planted in the fall go dormant in the winter and come springtime aren't flat anymore and seem to come back to life. So it's not like they are dead but don't get the warmth or light needed to stand upright. My weird analogy, maybe humans need the light and warmth to ignite faith, sometimes it's blocked. Whether by their own doing or by outside forces.Tacenda: Excellent analogy! So the simple question, which is not so simple to answer: Are we all born with pansies that have no blooms?
cinepro Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 Just to be clear, Will was a fictional character and his experience was entirely the creation of the author. He also could have flapped his arms and flown to Mars and back if the author had wanted him to. 1
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) I think it is dormant in the sense it is there not fully developed and when nourished it grows and brings forth fruitIt reminded me of this quote from a recent article in LDSmagazine.com entitled "Faith is a Decision not a Feeling"" I recall a character in Gerald Lund’s Work and the Glory series named Will. He struggled for months trying to get his own testimony of the truthfulness of the Church and the Book of Mormon, but felt nothing. Finally, one day he came across a scripture that contained the words, “”If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17). Will pondered the sequence of the words: “Do . . . . and then you shall know. . .” He finally recognized that he had been wanting to KNOW before he made the full effort to DO. But it is so often by the DOING that the KNOWING comes. When Will made the decision to be obedient, to move ahead and DO, the feeling of sure testimony followed soon after."EdYes, good point, Edither! Reminds me of something in the Bible:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?(James 2)Is it possible that faith with some works--but not many--is not dead, but might be dormant? Edited May 31, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Just to be clear, Will was a fictional character and his experience was entirely the creation of the author. He also could have flapped his arms and flown to Mars and back if the author had wanted him to.Cinepro: Yes, I suppose you and I could fly to Mars if God wanted us to. But please tell me: What does The fact that Will is a fictional character have to do with the nature, essence or meaning of faith? Edited May 31, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Edither Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 Is it possible that faith with some works--but not many--is not dead, but might be dormant? Good question...I think speaks to maybe degrees of dormancy?? Maybe, our faith could be less and less dormant the more we nourish it. Does make me thinkEd
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Yes, Edither, it makes me wonder, too--in a good way. It sounds to me, then that option (2) is something to be avoided. For the more active our faith, the further from death it is. But the less active our faith, the closer to death it is. So we don't want our faith to become dormat. sounds like it seems the same to you. Edited May 31, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Kenngo1969 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) As Alma said, when we know something, we have no cause merely to believe it: therefore, our faith is dormant because it has been supplanted by knowledge. (And Cinepro, I'll look forward to The Work and The Glory: Mars Edition at a bookstore near me. Personally, while never forgetting that they are fictional characters, still, I've learned a lot from those I've read about in books and seen in movies. I regularly gain insights that are useful in my real life. Your mileage may vary. ) Edited May 31, 2015 by Kenngo1969
cinepro Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 Cinepro: Yes, I suppose you and I could fly to Mars if God wanted us to. But please tell me: What does The fact that Will is a fictional character have to do with the nature, essence or meaning of faith? We can learn as much about "faith" from Will as we can magic from Harry Potter. If you are talking about "real" faith, you should probably stick to real people and experiences.
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 As Alma said, when we know something, we have no cause merely to believe it: therefore, our faith is dormant because it has been supplanted by knowledge. (And Cinepro, I'll look forward to The Work and The Glory: Mars Edition at a bookstore near me. Personally, while never forgetting that they are fictional characters, still, I've learned a lot from those I've seen in books and movies. I regularly gain insights that are useful in my real life. Your mileage may vary. )Hi Kenngo. So it sounds like you are liking option (2), and a dormant faith is a good thing. This is good, I think. We're comparing different views to see what one is most likely true. What you say reminds me of another passage of the Bible:Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.(Hebrews 11:1)So are you thinking faith can only be in an object that is unseen, and once it is seen, one can no longer have faith in it?
Kenngo1969 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 Faith that is dormant because it has never been acted upon is a bad thing. Such faith eventually withers away and dies. Faith that is dormant because it has been acted upon to such an extent that it has been supplanted by knowledge is a good thing. )
Kenngo1969 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 ... So are you thinking faith can only be in an object that is unseen, and once it is seen, one can no longer have faith in it?I prefer to say that, generally, once something has been seen, perceived, or experienced, one need no longer have faith in it because faith has been supplanted by knowledge borne of sight, perception, and experience. As an example, elsewhere in the Book of Mormon, the brother of Jared had such great faith in the Lord that the Lord showed Himself to the brother of Jared: the faith of the brother of Jared was supplanted by knowledge.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 We can learn as much about "faith" from Will as we can magic from Harry Potter. If you are talking about "real" faith, you should probably stick to real people and experiences.Carried to an extreme, this view might require us to discard much of the Holy Bible. Was Job a real person? Beats me. Is he an example of great faith, from whom I can learn a great deal? Doubtless!
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Faith that is dormant because it has never been acted upon is a bad thing. Such faith eventually withers away and dies. Faith that is dormant because it has been acted upon to such an extent that it has been supplanted by knowledge is a good thing. )Well said! So (1) would be a bad thing but (2) would not. Would you say Saul refusing to accept the truth about Christ was a bad thing, but Paul after seeing the resurrected Christ knew the truth, which was a good thing? That is, keeping his faith dormant before he met Christ was bad, but having a dormant faith after he met Christ was good? Edited May 31, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) I prefer to say that, generally, once something has been seen, perceived, or experienced, one need no longer have faith in it because faith has been supplanted by knowledge borne of sight, perception, and experience. As an example, elsewhere in the Book of Mormon, the brother of Jared had such great faith in the Lord that the Lord showed Himself to the brother of Jared: the faith of the brother of Jared was supplanted by knowledge.Sorry for editing my post. Yes, I think I understand. But still don't know why it is true. Are you saying Paul and Joseph Smith and Brother Jared--since they all met Christ--ceased to have active faith in Christ? Edited May 31, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 We can learn as much about "faith" from Will as we can magic from Harry Potter. If you are talking about "real" faith, you should probably stick to real people and experiences.Do you have a real person in mind?
Sp0ckrates Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) So it looks like there are now at least three possibilities:1. The faith one possesses always has been dormant and never has been active. 2. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through a lack of good deeds it becomes dormant, which is a bad thing (James 2:20). 3. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through seeing the object of the faith, it becomes dormant and is replaced by certainty, which is a good thing (Hebrews 11:1). Edited May 31, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Bobbieaware Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 So it looks like there are now at least three possibilities:1. The faith one possesses always has been dormant and never has been active. 2. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through a lack of good deeds it becomes dormant, which is a bad thing (James 2:20). 3. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through seeing the object of the faith, it becomes dormant and is replaced by certainty, which is a good thing (Hebrews 11:1).Does anyone know why (1) might possibly be true?I just reread Alma chapter 32 and all the answers you're seeking are right there in easy to understand language. The word "dormant" is used just once and it refers to what happens to one"s understanding of reality when a specific spiritual.truth he believes to be true is proven to actually be true. A trained runner may believe he will one day be capable of running a four minute mile, but when he actually accomplishes that goal his faith will culminate in knowledge. So now he knows and not just believes he is capable of running a four minute mile. His faith is answered by knowledge and that knowledge sets the stage for greater acts of faith. The expression "dormant" doesn't mean faith dies with knowledge but that faith will constantly be resummoned and rfocusef on new challenges.
CV75 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.(Alma 32:34)Hi. I'm new here. A Mormon friend of mine at another forum suggested I ask about this verse, here. I'm wondering what the words, "your faith is dormant" mean. I guess there are at least two possibilities:1. The faith they have was never active or used, so it had always been inactive or unused or dormant.2. The faith they have was at one time active or used, but it is now inactive or unused or dormant.I suppose possibility (1) might mean we are all born with faith, which is unknow to us until it is somehow awakened. Possibility (2) might mean the goal of every Christian is to make his or her faith about everything dormant or inactive.Both possibilities are something new to me and promise to make for some fascinating discoveries. Please tell me your thoughts on whether (1) or (2) or some other is true and explain why. Also feel free--but not obligated--to answer follow up questions, as I'm sure I'll have some. This series of verses in Alma 32 touches upon the interrelationship between a person's faith and knowledge. His faith becomes dormant when the object or point of that faith is fulfilled by knowledge about that same point, and when it comes time to expand his knowledge on that point, he must awaken and exercsie his faith again.
CV75 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 So it looks like there are now at least three possibilities:1. The faith one possesses always has been dormant and never has been active.2. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through a lack of good deeds it becomes dormant, which is a bad thing (James 2:20).3. The faith one possesses was at one time active, but through seeing the object of the faith, it becomes dormant and is replaced by certainty, which is a good thing (Hebrews 11:1).Yes, I think Alma 32 speaks to #3.
Tacenda Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Faith that is dormant because it has never been acted upon is a bad thing. Such faith eventually withers away and dies. Faith that is dormant because it has been acted upon to such an extent that it has been supplanted by knowledge is a good thing. )Talked to someone today that struggles to believe in the LDS church yet she is active, holds a calling etc. But has a sister that is full of faith, believes the church is true etc., but rarely attends. Which is the better way and which is dormant or are they both? Edited June 1, 2015 by Tacenda
Sp0ckrates Posted June 1, 2015 Author Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) I just reread Alma chapter 32 and all the answers you're seeking are right there in easy to understand language. The word "dormant" is used just once and it refers to what happens to one"s understanding of reality when a specific spiritual.truth he believes to be true is proven to actually be true. A trained runner may believe he will one day be capable of running a four minute mile, but when he actually accomplishes that goal his faith will culminate in knowledge. So now he knows and not just believes he is capable of running a four minute mile. His faith is answered by knowledge and that knowledge sets the stage for greater acts of faith. The expression "dormant" doesn't mean faith dies with knowledge but that faith will constantly be resummoned and rfocusef on new challenges.Thanks Bobbieaware. Please point out the verse in Alma 32 that explains what a dormant faith is. Edited June 1, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted June 1, 2015 Author Posted June 1, 2015 Yes, I think Alma 32 speaks to #3.Hi CV75. Please tell me why you are liking (3). I'm wondering why I should believe it and not, say (1).
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