Russell C McGregor Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 You believe a church should be required to keep members who publicly teach (not just personally believe) the below?: "the LDS church is not God’s one true church as it states," "the church isn’t true," the Church " is just plain wrong on so many issues," the LDS Church " is not, and never has been, God’s one and only true church on the earth," it teaches "too much philosophy of men to truly be from God," church leaders have "twisted, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized and straight-up lied about (the truth)," Not only that, but she believes that those who energetically teach such things are the "the best in their religion." 1
Russell C McGregor Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 News flash: publicly proselytizing opponents of the Church get excommunicated. Non-news flash: their ideological bedfellows disapprove. 3
smac97 Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 You believe a church should be required to keep members who publicly teach (not just personally believe) the below?: "the LDS church is not God’s one true church as it states," "the church isn’t true," the Church "is just plain wrong on so many issues," the LDS Church "is not, and never has been, God’s one and only true church on the earth," it teaches "too much philosophy of men to truly be from God," church leaders have "twisted, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized and straight-up lied about (the truth),"Not only that, but she believes that those who energetically teach such things are the "the best in their religion." The thing I don't get is the nigh-unto-orwellian description of the foregoing statements by the Calderwoods as merely expressions of "doubt." "I am not sure if the LDS Church is true" would be an expression of doubt. In contrast, "The church isn't true" is a statement of disbelief. Thanks, -Smac 4
Bobbieaware Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) Again thank you for your kind words. But I know at times here I can be strident as others can be as well. There are a few that seem almost always kind and patient who post here and I admire that. I don't mind challenging posts. Yours are full of faith and knowledge of the scriptures. My faith and testimony has been like that in the past. Whether it will return to that is yet to be seen. But well thought out posts from all positions make me think and ponder and want to search. I do feel like Mother Theresa who talks about a long period of spiritual darkness in her journey whether she felt the heavens were closed to her. Eventually she journeyed through that. What it will be for me personally I do not know.Now, sorry for getting more personal as this thread is not about me!Stridency and frustration is much more understandable and forgivable when it comes to you when, with empathy, one tries to really understand what you're going through. When I stop and put myself in your place, I see things in a new light and my heart can't help but go out to you. Don't give up on the possibility what you"re going through is your great test of faith, something you knew you would experience before you came to earth. Don't give up because God is patient and full of surprises. Edited May 25, 2015 by Bobbieaware 2
DonBradley Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Stridency and frustration is much more understandable and forgivable when it comes you when, with empathy, one tries to really understand what you're going through. When I stop and put myself in your place, I see things in a new light and my heart can't help but go out to you. Don't give up on the possibility what you"re going through is your great test of faith, something you knew you would experience before you came to earth. Don't give up because God is patient and full of surprises. Bobbie, This is truly beautiful. I'm certain I gave you waaay too much of a hard time earlier. Please accept my apologies. Don
Bobbieaware Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) Bobbie,This is truly beautiful.I'm certain I gave you waaay too much of a hard time earlier. Please accept my apologies.DonNo apology necessary, Don. If you'll remember, I started things down the wrong path when I couldn't resist the temptation to start my first post in response to one of yours by saying "nice try." As they say, "them's fighting words," or at very least an unwarranted and Ill-mannered attempt at invalidation. How true it is that starting off on a journey by even the slightest of wrong degrees might end up with one being plunged into a pit of quicksand instead of the peace and safety of grandma's house. My apologies to you. Edited May 25, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
readstoomuch Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Don, Bobbieaware and Teancum. I am very impressed by what you have all said and it is a model of how we need to treat each other and our doubts and tender souls. I see it happening more at Church on the local level. We talk about doubts and nobody seems to explode or if they do there are others to balance the impact. Now as far as the Calderwoods, they look and sound like if they could get through their doubts they would be a powerful force for good. I don`t think the Church could move as fast or as far as they would want in such a short time. It does feel like they were pushing the envelope and testing the boundaries. It will help us set the boundaries and help us learn how to handle the conversation. For example I go to groups/podcasts online that I am comfortable with. I go on RationalFaiths every once in awhile. I like the conversation occasionally, but it often pushes against my sensibilities in a way that reminds me of the Calderwoods. Maybe a little bit more orthodox. Pretty much the same with AThoughtfulFaith. Then there is MormonMatters which I usually appreciate, but which can push against my sensibilities. Pretty much the same with MormonDIscussionsPodcast. Then there is here, where I get along the best, but not perfectly with others. Maybe the boundaries can be set according to the tenor of the online conversation. The online actions of the member usually seem to be what gets them into trouble. So a ranking of online sights? Who would rank them? 1
rockpond Posted May 25, 2015 Author Posted May 25, 2015 Does this count? http://ordainwomen.org/project/hi-im-carson/ Carson wrote: "Reading how women used to give blessings makes me want women to be ordained. Knowing that it only would allow them to give more love to the world makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing the gender inequality in the Church makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing how the Church used to lead on gender issues but now lags behind the world also makes me want women to be ordained. All of this together makes me unequivocally feel that I believe women should be ordained." If that's the standard for excommunicating someone, we've got a lot of church discipline to get started. 2
carbon dioxide Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Carson wrote: "Reading how women used to give blessings makes me want women to be ordained. Knowing that it only would allow them to give more love to the world makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing the gender inequality in the Church makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing how the Church used to lead on gender issues but now lags behind the world also makes me want women to be ordained. All of this together makes me unequivocally feel that I believe women should be ordained." If that's the standard for excommunicating someone, we've got a lot of church discipline to get started.The best part argument for ordination of women is the one that he ignores and is the most important. That being whether the Lord himself wants women to be ordained. The Lord view just does not seem to matter to anyone who supports this movement. It is as though he gets no say on the issue. 4
Gray Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) So I gather that leading people out of the church in droves is bad, but leading just a few out should be ok. Prop 8 is probably responsible for leading thousands out of the church. Is leading people out of the church tantamount to apostasy? Edited May 25, 2015 by Gray
Popular Post bluebell Posted May 25, 2015 Popular Post Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) Carson wrote: "Reading how women used to give blessings makes me want women to be ordained. Knowing that it only would allow them to give more love to the world makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing the gender inequality in the Church makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing how the Church used to lead on gender issues but now lags behind the world also makes me want women to be ordained. All of this together makes me unequivocally feel that I believe women should be ordained." If that's the standard for excommunicating someone, we've got a lot of church discipline to get started. That statement annoyed me so bad when i read it. Did he not notice that women used to give blessings without being ordained? Did he not notice that when the church 'lead on gender issues' women were not ordained? I don't know if he's just really bad at logic or purposefully ignoring the obvious because it's the only way to make his arguments make any sense, but either way- Edited May 25, 2015 by bluebell 8
Storm Rider Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Bluebell, I agree with you. I found Carson's statements on why he supports ordaining women to be shallow and unconvincing. Anytime someone leads with "....allow them to give more love in to the world" will raise my wariness of them. Are the women of today not sources of love in the world? What about the men? Are they deficient or they is great need of being better sources of love? This is the kind of emotional drivel that irritates me. It attempts to blackmail people into following because it leads to a world of rainbows, cotton candy, and puppy dog tails. Your point is even better; women laid their hands on the heads of those in need without being ordained. In emergencies that can be done today; it point is that it is an emergency. 2
JLHPROF Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Prop 8 is probably responsible for leading thousands out of the church. Is leading people out of the church tantamount to apostasy? I think what you might be asking is "does something that creates apostates qualify as an item of apostasy itself?"And the answer would be no. Many things that are true and correct have led people to become apostates. 3
JLHPROF Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Carson wrote: "Reading how women used to give blessings makes me want women to be ordained. Knowing that it only would allow them to give more love to the world makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing the gender inequality in the Church makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing how the Church used to lead on gender issues but now lags behind the world also makes me want women to be ordained. All of this together makes me unequivocally feel that I believe women should be ordained." If that's the standard for excommunicating someone, we've got a lot of church discipline to get started. The standard for excommunicating is pretty simple. It's the opposite of the standard for baptism.To be baptized a missionary/Bishop asks the following questions: Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world? Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you? What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions? Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship? You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them? The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman? The law of tithing. The Word of Wisdom. The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to fellow members. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it? If a person cannot honestly answer yes to number two they have already walked away from a membership qualification.If they can honestly answer yes then they shouldn't be publicly arguing against elements of Joseph's restoration or the current Prophet's responses to other issues (like ordaining women). That IS opposition. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Carson wrote: "Reading how women used to give blessings makes me want women to be ordained. Knowing that it only would allow them to give more love to the world makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing the gender inequality in the Church makes me want women to be ordained. Seeing how the Church used to lead on gender issues but now lags behind the world also makes me want women to be ordained. All of this together makes me unequivocally feel that I believe women should be ordained." If that's the standard for excommunicating someone, we've got a lot of church discipline to get started.That seems like a nice Straw Man. While it's certainly possible that this is the only thing he's written or said on the matter, and while it's possible that he's never written or said anything regarding anything else that sets him in opposition to the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, personally, I'm skeptical. 1
Gray Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 The standard for excommunicating is pretty simple. It's the opposite of the standard for baptism.To be baptized a missionary/Bishop asks the following questions: If a person cannot honestly answer yes to number two they have already walked away from a membership qualification.If they can honestly answer yes then they shouldn't be publicly arguing against elements of Joseph's restoration or the current Prophet's responses to other issues (like ordaining women). That IS opposition.I think that's the standard for granting/withholding temple recommends. Simply not believing is not normally grounds for excommunication.
JLHPROF Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 I think that's the standard for granting/withholding temple recommends. Simply not believing is not normally grounds for excommunication. Agreed. It's about what is publicly proclaimed. People don't get ex'd for losing their belief. They don't even get ex'd for believing differing doctrines. They get ex'd for publicly claiming the Church is out of order in some way or teaching beliefs contrary to the Church. And they always will. 1
rockpond Posted May 25, 2015 Author Posted May 25, 2015 The standard for excommunicating is pretty simple. It's the opposite of the standard for baptism.To be baptized a missionary/Bishop asks the following questions:If a person cannot honestly answer yes to number two they have already walked away from a membership qualification.If they can honestly answer yes then they shouldn't be publicly arguing against elements of Joseph's restoration or the current Prophet's responses to other issues (like ordaining women). That IS opposition.Your definition is not consistent with the Church Handbook definition.
rockpond Posted May 25, 2015 Author Posted May 25, 2015 That seems like a nice Straw Man. While it's certainly possible that this is the only thing he's written or said on the matter, and while it's possible that he's never written or said anything regarding anything else that sets him in opposition to the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, personally, I'm skeptical. I asked for an example, this was the one that was given.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Seems that many have added to the doctrine of baptism and declared it as doctrine.
rockpond Posted May 25, 2015 Author Posted May 25, 2015 Also, when you choose to go public with your doubts, you have crossed the line between sincere inquiry and open opposition.This really speaks to the point of my OP... Is public expression of one's doubts the same as public opposition to the church (which is grounds for excommunication). Or does it need to be something beyond just expression of doubts? (I do agree, BTW, that the Calderwoods went beyond just publicly expressing doubts, I'm just responding to this point.) 1
jwhitlock Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Are you talking about their blog posts? I'm talking about what Smac posted as quotes from them, and what rockpond is trying desperately to misrepresent as taken out of context.
jwhitlock Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Prop 8 is probably responsible for leading thousands out of the church. Is leading people out of the church tantamount to apostasy? I doubt you're accurate about "thousands". You're also inaccurate about it "leading" them out of the church. Leading people out of the church is what apostates and anti-Mormons do by actively denigrating the church. It's probably more accurate to say that Prop 8's effect was to separate the wheat from the tares. 2
ERayR Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Prop 8 is probably responsible for leading thousands out of the church. Is leading people out of the church tantamount to apostasy? Irrelevant to current conversation.
Damien the Leper Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 This remark distorts the fact that, if anything, the Church errs on the side of leniency in administering discipline for infractions.When are you going to learn that freedom of speech is a concept that pertains to the relationship between a government and its constituency and that, in a free and democratic state, private organizations have every right to establish and enforce certain standards of behavior -- including speech -- as a condition for membership in said organizations.Good ole Stalinism at work. Suppression of voice due to disagreement with discipline being the consequence is a form of fascism.To be clear, I'm NOT calling the LDS church fascist but there are those who act in such a manner.
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