Excommunicated: Carson And Marisa Calderwood

[ERayR]

Yes, heresy is on the books as an excommunicatible offense. I'm just having trouble finding an example of it actually happening to a non-priest or nun in, say, the last two centuries.

 

And what does that mean to the present conversation?  Simply a red herring.

[mormonnewb]

And the Catholics and the Baptists and the Methodists and (fill in the blank) are free to run their Church however they see fit. You are a sharp guy and know that so why the comparison.

Because the assertion was that NO church can withstand dissent from within. Yet, the truth is that 99% of the Christian churches survive just fine. So what is it about Mormonism that makes us so frail that the least expression of doubt or disbelief will bring down the whole church?

[rockpond]

I can see it as a process but excommunication is not for beliefs but for actions. 

 

True... but for the Calderwoods they were publicly expressing themselves throughout the process.  As we've discussed here, publicly expressing doubt is okay.  Publicly expressing disbelief seems to be when you get into the realm of needing church discipline.  So while their actions remained consistent (public expression through blogging & social media) it was their shift from doubt to disbelief that seems to have got them into trouble.

[ERayR]

True... but for the Calderwoods they were publicly expressing themselves throughout the process.  As we've discussed here, publicly expressing doubt is okay.  Publicly expressing disbelief seems to be when you get into the realm of needing church discipline.  So while their actions remained consistent (public expression through blogging & social media) it was their shift from doubt to disbelief that seems to have got them into trouble.

 

I don't know about the Calderwoods.  We have no real information as to what their actions were so we are left with speculation only.  If the decide to make the determination letter public like KK or Dehlin?

[rockpond]

A second person has been a member of the church for many years, return missionary, offered countless hours of service in multiple callings during their lifetime, and has born testimony many times. This person has recently learned information that challenged their paradigm, threw them into a faith crisis and now feels hurt and lied to by the church. This person now questions about what is real, what is false and in this process of questioning he/she says some things that denounce the earlier paradigm and simple correlated narrative that the church had taught him/her earlier in life.

 

I think we'll continue to see examples of this "second person".  To some degree this describes the Calderwoods, the Van Allens, Dehlin, and others.  I am seeing this in local members around me and in some close friends who are church leaders.

[ERayR]

Because the assertion was that NO church can withstand dissent from within. Yet, the truth is that 99% of the Christian churches survive just fine. So what is it about Mormonism that makes us so frail that the least expression of doubt or disbelief will bring down the whole church?

 

This seems to cast some doubt on your premise.

 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-decline-of-decline-alarming-rate-of-mainline-protestants-leaving-church-may-be-slowing-down-128360/

[ERayR]

I think we'll continue to see examples of this "second person".  To some degree this describes the Calderwoods, the Van Allens, Dehlin, and others.  I am seeing this in local members around me and in some close friends who are church leaders.

 

I think you are right.  It is amazing the attraction exerted by the great and spacious building.

[ttribe]

I think you are right.  It is amazing the attraction exerted by the great and spacious building.

This post exemplifies the damaging judgmentalism in our culture.

[Tacenda]

This post exemplifies the damaging judgmentalism in our culture.

Almost as bad as saying the LDS temple is a great and spacious building.

[mormonnewb]

This seems to cast some doubt on your premise.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-decline-of-decline-alarming-rate-of-mainline-protestants-leaving-church-may-be-slowing-down-128360/

No heresy excommunications but the Protestants still seem to be holding on by a "thread" (ie, 30 times our membership here in America). How do they do it?

And no, I don't have the temerity to suggest that we learn from others. I know that isn't quite "our thang."

[Teancum]

A number of scholars who have written on the subject have agreed that the true legacy of anti-Mormons Jerald & Sandra Tanner was to strengthen the LDS Church by their work.  That was, of course, not their intention.  However, by publishing early LDS documents and through wide-ranging fault-finding, they helped many faithful LDS Church members and scholars see the power and genuine nature of early Mormonism.  It was as though the Lord had raised them up in order to stimulate the Restoration to move forward with energy and grace.

 

Naturally, along the way there have been casualties, but it has been worth the challenge and effort.  The same applies to FARMS and FAIR.  It can sometimes be difficult to confront new information, new paradigms, but they are essential to growth.

I have heard this claim but have not seen anything to back it up. So I am respectfully skeptical of it. Can you point me to some sources?

[Teancum]

In all sincerity and humility, I ask the following questions with respect: Where and how does one in your position draw the line between being a member with quietly held doubts and being an apostate wolf in sheeps clothing? For example, in church situations do you sometimes find yourself having to put up a false front or be a little dishonest from time to time in order to remain "in the closet" with your doubts? If your covering up is successful enough to have most in your ward assume you're a believing member in good standing, does it make you feel uneasy having members think you're something you're not. I could go on, but I'll stop here.

Please do understand that though I don't know you personally I do care about your welfare as a fellow child of God. I deeply sympathize with you in your predicament. I'm sure you wish things could be otherwise.

Honestly I am not comfortable discussing this in detail other than to say it can be tough at times. I am not sure of your motives either. My bishop and SP know where I stand. Isn't that the preferred path to discuss concerns? Really the more I think about your post the more it bugs me. I can't win. Be vocal and get kicked out. Be quiet and do the best I can and be considered dishonest or a wolf in sheets clothing. No win here.

Sure there are days I want to just not go at all. There are days I want to take a stand and maybe even resign. But for me it is complex and many things to consider. And among them is still acknowledging that my current conclusions could be wrong.

Last of all I am a member in good standing, I may have issues with some of the core beliefs and historical claims. But I tithe and do all the other do's and don'ts quite well.

What do you think members like me should do? Would you prefer we pack up and leave?

[carbon dioxide]

I have heard this claim but have not seen anything to back it up. So I am respectfully skeptical of it. Can you point me to some sources?

I don't know about the church being stronger but It has made me stronger.  If I want to really learn and grow in the Church, I would rather pick up a Tanner book than an Ensign.  The Ensign has good articles but nothing that presents a challenge to me to want to search deeper.  Critical sources can either cause one to stumble or make one stronger.  I sort of view it as a vaccination or developing resistance like a bacteria develops resistance to an antibiotic.   I have seen enough false information in critical sources that I really don't take any of it seriously now.

[SmileyMcGee]

They clearly fall under #1 and #2.

I can think of a few modern prophets who, according to the current regime, would also be guilty of #2.

Personally, I think the church is free to do what it wants, but excommunicating people over expressing doubts or even criticizing church leaders just seems silly. I know some will say "but excommunication is meant to help these people," but expressing concerns, even publicly is not a sin. Honest criticism is not evil speaking. Disciplining members for this stuff just seems more like a relic of the 15th century than an approach that Jesus would take. Excommunication is more like a scarlet letter in these cases than a sincere effort to help these people. Why do we get so upset with doubts and criticism?

Edited May 24, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[Bobbieaware]

Honestly I am not comfortable discussing this in detail other than to say it can be tough at times. I am not sure of your motives either. My bishop and SP know where I stand. Isn't that the preferred path to discuss concerns? Really the more I think about your post the more it bugs me. I can't win. Be vocal and get kicked out. Be quiet and do the best I can and be considered dishonest or a wolf in sheets clothing. No win here.

Sure there are days I want to just not go at all. There are days I want to take a stand and maybe even resign. But for me it is complex and many things to consider. And among them is still acknowledging that my current conclusions could be wrong.

Last of all I am a member in good standing, I may have issues with some of the core beliefs and historical claims. But I tithe and do all the other do's and don'ts quite well.

What do you think members like me should do? Would you prefer we pack up and leave?

As I've already stated, I deeply sympathize with you plight. My motive is that I have an enquiring mind and I'm fascinated to learn and know about many things. And now, thanks to the candor of your post, I see you with new respect and even admiration. I think it's likely you have more residual faith and testimony than you realize. It could be that deep within your spirit, beyond the reach of your flesh and blood mind, the glowing embers of testimony still burn brightly. I have deep respect for your integrity and can only wish you the best in all things.

[Tacenda]

I can think of a few modern prophets who, according to the current regime, would also be guilty of #2.

Personally, I think the church is free to do what it wants, but excommunicating people over expressing doubts or even criticizing church leaders just seems silly. I know some will say "but excommunication is meant to help these people," but expressing concerns, even publicly is not a sin. Honest criticism is not evil speaking. Disciplining members for this stuff just seems more like a relic of the 15th century than an approach that Jesus would take. Excommunication is more like a scarlet letter in these cases than a sincere effort to help these people. Why do we get so upset with doubts and criticism?

This made me think, after we're told a ward is a ward family, or like a family and we call each other brother or sister so and so. Now does a family do what the church has done? More or less shaming them through ex'ing. I see how some who've been ex'd for a serious sin could benefit by way of going through a repentance process. But someone who doubts/disbelieves and talks about it in public or disagrees with certain doctrine. Could be like a family member disagreeing with set rules in the house. Usually they would just be grounded or something. Edited May 24, 2015 by Tacenda

[Mystery Meat]

Honestly I am not comfortable discussing this in detail other than to say it can be tough at times. I am not sure of your motives either. My bishop and SP know where I stand. Isn't that the preferred path to discuss concerns? Really the more I think about your post the more it bugs me. I can't win. Be vocal and get kicked out. Be quiet and do the best I can and be considered dishonest or a wolf in sheets clothing. No win here.

Sure there are days I want to just not go at all. There are days I want to take a stand and maybe even resign. But for me it is complex and many things to consider. And among them is still acknowledging that my current conclusions could be wrong.

Last of all I am a member in good standing, I may have issues with some of the core beliefs and historical claims. But I tithe and do all the other do's and don'ts quite well.

What do you think members like me should do? Would you prefer we pack up and leave?

 

You are doing good Teancum. Just keep trying,embrace the positive and the Lord will provide in His time.

[why me]

This made me think, after we're told a ward is a ward family, or like a family and we call each other brother or sister so and so. Now does a family do what the church has done? More or less shaming them through ex'ing. I see how some who've been ex'd for a serious sin could benefit by way of going through a repentance process. But someone who doubts/disbelieves and talks about it in public or disagrees with certain doctrine. Could be like a family member disagreeing with set rules in the house. Usually they would just be grounded or something.

Maybe I am misunderstanding but it seems that you are all over the place on this issue. Do you really think that a ward can survive with many disbelieving members in it? And these disbelieving members are actively spreading their disbelief? I don't think that such a 'family' would make a happy ward family. No church could tolerate disbelieving members spreading their disbelief in their churches. Too much discord and possible distruction inside the church. Paul warned that the early saints needed to be of one mind. Why?

 

And families do break up when there is confusion inside it. And it can take only one wayward family member to sow discord inside the entire family. And to preserve the peace of the family, sometimes it may be good to ask a family member to leave.

[DonBradley]

Maybe I am misunderstanding but it seems that you are all over the place on this issue. Do you really think that a ward can survive with many disbelieving members in it? And these disbelieving members are actively spreading their disbelief? 

 

So, sincere questions about this: How contagious do you think disbelief is? More contagious than belief itself? 

[DonBradley]

I'm sorry if you don't see a difference between expressing the possibility that people may be breaking/have already broken their covenants and directly assuming that they have done so without knowing all the details of their lives.  Seems a pretty obvious distinction to me.

 

 

You are not accurately characterizing what you said above. It was not expressing a "possibility" but a conclusion of what you thought must be the case--that they had broken their temple covenants. And then you claimed to not be judging them.

 

If you'd like to change to more charitable views, that sounds great, but it seems silly to misrepresent what you said before.

 

Don

[Avatar4321]

Because the assertion was that NO church can withstand dissent from within. Yet, the truth is that 99% of the Christian churches survive just fine. So what is it about Mormonism that makes us so frail that the least expression of doubt or disbelief will bring down the whole church?

The recent pew research polls we've been discussing don't seem to indicate that those churches are doing as well you claim.

[why me]

So, sincere questions about this: How contagious do you think disbelief is? More contagious than belief itself? 

I think that it is very contagious. Mainly because with faith there is usually doubt. It may not take much to shake the faith of believers. How often have extremely faithful members left the church because of the interpretations from critics on the internet? No one has testimonies of steel. And this is why I believe that Paul warned the early church about discord.

[Avatar4321]

No heresy excommunications but the Protestants still seem to be holding on by a "thread" (ie, 30 times our membership here in America). How do they do it?

And no, I don't have the temerity to suggest that we learn from others. I know that isn't quite "our thang."

Having a 300 year head start probably factors in that a bit. Doesn't change the fact that they are declining

[why me]

Yes, heresy is on the books as an excommunicatible offense. I'm just having trouble finding an example of it actually happening to a non-priest or nun in, say, the last two centuries.

I believe that in the catholic faith, it happens automatically. Many have been excommunicated for remarrying after divorcing a fellow catholic. These people cannot take communion.

[Tacenda]

Don, I listened to the 5 part FairMormon podcast on faith the other day, and loved it. I think I know where you were going with all this on the thread you started, I accidentally posted here. Not too good with memory and words, but I think in the podcast you were putting across a belief that is similar to Stage 6 in Fowler's stages of belief. Or a faith that can't be harmed by things like no evidence, or problems with history or being influenced by dissenters.

In the c/p below, a good deal of what is mentioned in your thread and this thread are discussed in the conference. Wish I could listen to it vs. read all of it. But what you said on the panel seems to show what I thought you meant. I hope you don't mind me posting it!

2013 CONFERENCE

Maxine Hanks, Don Bradley, Janet L. Eyring, Bill Reel

August 1, 2013

The Loss and Rekindling of Faith

Bill Reel: First off all the speakers today have been, as they’ve been giving their presentations, been looking out over at you which I’m trying to do the same thing but we can’t see you because the spotlight is in our eyes so it’s all a mirage that we actually are looking into your eyes and talking to you.

My name is Bill Reel. I am the host of Mormon Discussion Podcast. It is a podcast that deals with those struggling with faith and faith crisis and I’m grateful for the opportunity to moderate this panel discussion. We have three panelists today, and I hope to participate a little as well, but we have to my immediate right is Janet Eyring. Next to her is Don Bradley who you’ve already heard from, and to his right is Maxine Hanks who just got done speaking to us.

I’m going to turn the time over to each of them to share a brief bio of themselves so that you can get a feel for them, and then we’ll go from there. Janet Eyring, the time is yours.

Janet Eyring: Ok, to give a little background on my family, I’m a niece of Spencer W. Kimball and a cousin of Henry Eyring. I went to elementary school in Berkeley, California, and junior high and high school in Moraga, across the hill. I graduated from Brigham Young University in 1976 with a major in Spanish and a minor in English as a second language. I went on a mission to Toronto, Canada and when I returned taught ESL for five years in Utah, and then went back to California to the Los Angeles area and after completing my masters and doctoral degrees at UCLA I trained ESL teachers at Cal State Fullerton for the past twenty-four years.

My crisis of faith began as a child and it was not resolved until I was about forty-six years old.

Don Bradley: I’m Don Bradley, I’m a writer and editor and completing a masters in history at Utah State. I have a bachelors in history from BYU. I did my first church history at the LDS archives when I was seventeen, and I was for some reason the only seventeen year old there, I don’t know [audience laughter]. I sort of gradually accumulated a lot of things that I had found that were different that I had started with and eventually that, to oversimplify greatly, caused a rupture in my faith. I spent about five years in the church still active most of the time but not believing, and then I left the church officially. I had my name removed from the records, was out of the church for five years, and then through a combination of things that I’ll say a little bit more about later I was re-baptized three years ago. Maxine actually led the music at my baptism even though she was at the time not a member of the church. I asked the ward mission leader, I said, “Does the person who leads the music have to be a member of the church?” and he said “No”, so I didn’t mention that she was excommunicated [audience laughter] and I was able to participate in her baptism as well so we’re great friend.

Maxine Hanks: Let’s see you’ve already heard from me but I thought I would just add that I was inactive for about ten years then I was excommunicated for twenty so I was kind of out of the church for about twenty-eight years. I was an active believing member for about twenty-eight years, so half of my life was in and half of my life was out and I happened to come back right at the point when they were perfectly equal so I feel like I have the perspective of both: a lifetime member, a descendant of eighteen Mormon pioneers, and I also have the perspective of a convert. I like that, I mean I truly feel like both, I “lifer” and a convert and it’s a nice perspective to have.

Another thing that really helped me was my friendship with Don because in our journey’s, which were parallel, and we met each other when we were both kind of out there doing a lot of critical inquiry, we began the intensive discussions about Joseph Smith and about Mormonism in order to wrestle with our own issues and concerns and questions and doubts. Through that wrestling that Don and I both did, which was very deep and very authentic, I can attest to the fact that his return and my return are absolutely sincere because we wrestled with everything and we did it for years. Don helped me to come back by being there and wrestling with me and he confirmed me when I was baptized.

Bill Reel: So, just a little bit about me. I’m thirty-four years old and I joined the church at seventeen and I’m the only member in my family. I live in Sandusky, Ohio which is next to Cedar Point, America’s biggest roller-coaster park. Her is the thing, All three of them, and me, we’ve all had a major faith crisis, and I had mine while serving as a bishop for the church which is kind of unique. It was after that faith crisis and coming through it that I began the podcast. Hopefully today we can talk a little bit about the journey of a faith crisis. I know in the two days that I have been here no less than five people among you have shared with me that you have a son, or a daughter, or a brother or a sister who has left the church over challenges, and I think the problem is prevalent.

I would say that while FAIR’s responsibility is to defend the Church, I would remind each of us that are members of the Church we are to strengthen the feeble knees and lift the hands that hang down. And with that let’s begin

Let me start off with Don Bradley and then if anybody wants to add to this, please feel free. How would you describe your faith and testimony prior to your faith crisis?

Don: Well, this answer might be surprising: My loss of faith was very gradual, it was piecemeal. Before that began, I would say I had a strong testimony. I had spiritual experiences, which were quite strong. What happened over time was I came to not trust my own experiences, and I came to reinterpret them as being from me, perhaps being some illusion, rather than from God.

Bill: Either of you two? If not I would just add to that, very much like Don, and I would add something too. Each of our journeys are different. So I hope you don’t see faith crisis as this little box that we could go and just write a handbook for and fix. I would add that when I joined the Church at 17, I encountered Fawn Brodie’s “No Man Knows My History”, before I joined the Church, and had answered all my questions (about the book). But I had come up with a very dogmatic, very black and white way of seeing the world, and it was at that point years later that the pieces no longer fit in my puzzle, so things crashed, and I had to kind of put things back together.

Maxine maybe you could start us off and tell us what caused your faith crisis, maybe initially, what sent it in that direction?

Maxine: I was a very devoted believing member and I served a LDS Mission. I think the first crack in that picture was when serving as a missionary and encountering sexist attitude towards the sister missionaries. That was really hard on me. I came back a little disillusioned, even though I had a very successful mission, enjoyed myself, and made great friendships while I was out there, and I am still close to a number of those Elders and Sisters today. I came back from my mission troubled, really troubled, because I had grown up in a ward and stake where they sort of let me have every leadership position I wanted. In the mission field I encountered this brick wall kind of inequality, which I wasn’t used to. When I came back from my mission, I went to BYU, which is when I delved into all the historical problems and issues. I actually encountered my crisis of faith 10 years before sort of everyone else did in the 90’s.

From 1981 to 1983 I encountered all of the problems everybody is talking about, you know, historicity, things Joseph did, Polygamy, all of it, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, you name it. I lost faith in the institution and I lost faith in the Church. Then in 1983, I went through a series of a couple of really difficult surgeries for endometriosis. And I lost my faith in God. So I really went through a complete crisis of Faith in the early 80’s which is why I moved across the street (from the Utah Valley Convention Center) to be alone with my faith crisis.

Janet: My faith crisis was definitely not a behavioral thing, like “I really want to smoke” or that I had any social misgivings about the Bishop or someone in the ward that I didn’t like. Mine was more of an intellectual one and I don’t think there was any event per say that caused the crisis, but ultimately was from the fact that I was a seeker from a very early age. I was raised in Berkeley California, in the Berkeley 1st Ward. If you knew that era, people like Hugh Nibley, Richard Anderson, and Spencer Palmer were all in that Ward, and kind of set the tone for academic discussion. It seemed a natural part of things in the church to me. My mother was also a very inquisitive person, so critical thinking was always from a young age went hand in hand with spiritual matters. I guess one could say I was a doubter and a contrarian from a really early age. My husband has said a kind of Analysis paralysis is my problem, so I guess it has been with me since age 11 or 12. I remember asking my parents questions like, “Did Joseph Smith actually see God”, “Why is a true book like the Book of Mormon so boring, a true book, how can it be so boring?

Why does it include identical sections to the Bible??

How can uncle Spencer Kimball be a prophet when he seems normal like you and me?

I ended up going to BYU majoring in Spanish and I remember being asked by my BYU Bishop to come out of the audience to bear my testimony and I know he was anticipating a very strong testimony from an Eyring. An honest person, that I was, stood up and said “I thought the Church was true but I wasn’t sure. Before I could say much more, I was pulled away from the podium, like a stage actor with the Vaudeville hook, probably to keep me from doing any further damage that day.

I went on a mission to Toronto Canada, in hopes of securing a real testimony. I put my whole heart and soul into it, sincerely loving the Canadians and even the anti-Mormon one who packed me with information about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon that I had never heard before. There I felt I’d received an answer to prayer that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that the Church was not true. I asked my Mission President to allow me go home three months early, because I was really feeling like a hypocrite. He persuaded me to stay, and I am very grateful for that, but that was the beginning of my journey of 20 years outside the Church.

Bill: Don, any thoughts you want to add beyond what the two of them have said?

Don: It was in my history research, making new findings, that were different from what I had understood what I thought the things should be, and not knowing how to reconcile all of this, and also as I mentioned earlier, just basically losing faith in revelations so that I thought that there was basically one way of knowing and that way was intellectual analysis. If I couldn’t show that something was true in that way then I felt like I had no reason to believe that.

Bill: I want to ask the next question, which is a neat insight into what made you susceptible to a faith crisis, and the reason I want to ask this, there are lots of people, I’m sure in this room even, having talked to several members of FAIR who are aware of all the difficult issues, but never ever run into a faith crisis. For me, and maybe for you three as well, I found that very strange to hear. How can you encounter these things and never struggle over them? I wonder if any of you three could add any insight into what made you susceptible to it?

Jan: I don’t think I was any different than any other Mormon, other then maybe a little more earnest, a little more analytical, a little less emotional. I’d been taught the Glory of God is intelligence, and that we should seek for truth and the Mormon Church holds the Truth. Isn’t this the substance of every testimony meeting, someone saying they know the Church is true? To me it is no wonder an educated Mormon could lose her faith, if key points that have been taught, were modified and had to be rethought. It came later but at the time, maybe things were not so true as I had been taught them to be. It didn’t matter how nice Mormons were, I had always liked Mormons, that wasn’t the problem, or how strongly family members believed. That wouldn’t be enough to keep me in the Church. I needed my own knowledge. I was disturbed by discovery like the multiple first vision stories, Joseph Smith the Glass looker, and similarities of the Masonic Ceremonies and the Temple. I have to say I was invited to be on this panel, and I had never read Michael Ash’s book, but I read it before I got here, and I have to say that book “Shaken Faith Syndrome” does a very good job of describing the cognitive dissonance that I felt, and it details all of my problematic areas and actually more. Coincidentally I think he is right onto something for people like me.

Bill: Did you find that the common thread in most, not all as I think the lady earlier today (Rosalynde Welch ) spoke about a totally different type of doubting or journey, so I am not putting everybody in the same boat, but I would say a lot of faith crisis revolve around finding these historical issues. I’ll add one thought to that question, which is a lot of time we make the assumption that people who have a faith crisis, they start off very naive to the issues, and then when they encounter any of this history, they struggle, but just to throw a contradiction to that, having read “No Man Knows my History”, having spent time on “Book of Mormon Answerman” on the New Jerusalem web site, if any of you remember that old site years ago. FAIR when it first started off, Jeff Lindsay, I was aware of all that stuff. It wasn’t until years later when all of a sudden the foundation I had built on, bad assumptions and expectations had fallen apart. Had I had somebody to talk to, I don’t think it would of happened. But here’s the problem, when I joined at 17, by the time I am even 18 or 19, I am the person everybody in the Ward is saying has the answers. People in the stake were coming to me, missionaries outside of our Ward were coming to me for answers on questions. I was throwing at them Chiasmus and writings on other metal plates and I had all that information, but I had nobody to talk to when I was struggling and I was afraid that One – I would hurt somebody’s feelings or open a can of worms for them. I was afraid that somebody would be over critical. I would say for those who are struggling, a lot of members are afraid to talk about it. They are sensitive to Church leaders being tough on them, and while I think most Church leaders are loving and kind, there are at time people who don’t know how to handle faith crisis when someone comes to them. The other thing is I don’t know who else knows these things so I am scared to death I am going to give them a faith crisis by going to them and asking them about polygamy or asking them the tough questions. So I think when we talk about historical issues be aware of that. People who are struggling need somebody to talk to.

Maxine: It is a curious thing how somebody can encounter all of the same information faith destroying testimony, faith destroying information, and it’s not an issue for them at all, it doesn’t even take them to that place. Other people become consumed with that search. It is not easy to categorize because it doesn’t fall along the lines of sort of scholarly learned intellectual and non-scholarly. And it doesn’t fall along the lines of those who are inquisitive and driven versus people who take things more easily or care free. It’s really hard to figure out why some people are just not provoked and engaged by that permeation and others are. I just know that some people have to wrestle with it and sort of take them all the way down to the ground and wrestle until your spent and other people don’t and I don’t have an answer for that. I was someone who had to wrestle with that

Bill: We are all different

Don: Elder Oaks had spoken before about how our strengths can be our downfall. There’s a saying that to a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Having a good analytical hammer, I tried to apply it to basically everything. Also, I think one thing that often indicates that isn’t easily recognized, people who often have intellectual doubts, it isn’t that they haven’t taken the

Church seriously enough, but they’ve taken It so seriously they’ve been willing to dig deeper than people usually are so they encounter more difficult information then others have encountered.

I want to combine two questions together here. We talked about what initiated it, how we were before we run into these problems as far as our faith being structured, but now let’s start to work towards a turnaround. So the two questions are what initiated this turn around within each of you to begin moving back towards the Church, and then a second part to that question, who was a help in that process among maybe family, friends, or a church Leader?

Don: I must be a complex person as my journey was complex and it came in stages. The first step back towards the Church was just in recognizing the good, in having to acknowledge the good that it did in the lives of other people around me. For instance my friend Brian Hales, whom I think is out there signing books right now. I was doing work for him. He was just so generous and recognized how much the gospel gave him, peace in his life. I also started to take seriously again that there were other ways of knowing, then just analysis. That there might be spiritual ways of gaining truth. As I continued to dig deeper in Church History, I dug through all of these layers of difficult things and finally I got down to where the gold was. I found really beautiful, good things in Church History that helped me to return.

Maxine: It was bigger than me, it was larger forces in my life and recognizing them, it was God working in my life and my sense of destiny. I am very much aware of my life, and I try to encourage other people to look at their live this way, because I think it’s true of all of us. But I am very aware of my life as sort of something as destined, it has a pattern and a purpose to it. And I am always, always understand the current circumstances in light of the larger purpose and destiny. So every step of the way in my life when I was Mormon, and then when I was disillusioned, when I was inactive, and then when I was excommunicated, and then when I was pursuing ministry studies and interfaith studies and all of that. I was always seeking to understand? Path, is this where I am supposed to be, Is this my destiny. I have always felt guided, and led in that way. My return to the Church, I would have to say, was really prompted by God, and you know larger forces and my own sense of destiny. In recognizing the signs, in recognizing it was time to come back and recognizing the divine hand in directing me. That this was the next phase of my journey and destiny.

Janet: I wanted to fill in just a little bit after I decided the Church wasn’t true. I pretty much left cold turkey. I didn’t have many associations, there were a few Sunstone friends I kept in touch with. I was also a target of some born again evangelical missionaries that you may or may not know, but they are in Utah County looking for people just like us. I continued my spiritual search. I didn’t give up believing in God. I made associations with Jews, Hindus, and Muslims, and Protestants, wanting to learn what I could. I actively spoke against the Mormon Church, criticized the Leaders, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith. I believed that most Mormons were deluded, simple minded, and self-righteous. So you can see my arrogance here, I think. Who helped? I think that was your question. It wasn’t so much that I felt guilty about breaking commandments, cause In fact I felt I had received an answer to leave the Church but I do feel that just kind of living, experiencing things, I felt the natural effect of my poor choices. I missed opportunities for service, lost the chance to have children, experienced weakened ties.

I think had many sins of omission, of which you’re aware of, not so much commission, things weren’t getting taken care of. I am just going to say there were four key people for me. A friend of mine who was involved with Sunstone was the only Mormon I felt I could contact, and he invited me to meet some other single friends who were Mormon. With him I had a glimmer of hope I could retrieve, rethink, and repair what had been seriously broken over time. I had a brother in Law who came to Southern California and he somehow suggested I go to a Church Dance. That seemed a lot easier than going to a three hour meeting. I did go there and I did discover some co-dependent and some mentally ill people, but more then that I saw some older singles like myself who also had experienced the pains and disappointments of life. Some never married, other divorced, widowed, others disabled, yet all seeking to find answers in the community of believers. And I felt deeply humbled by that experience. And believe it or not, I had a home teacher who would not give up. He and his wife came regularly for several years. The Church always finds you where you are. They gave me the courage to try sacrament meeting and have a place to sit. It was very, very uncomfortable. At that point, I began to see an opening that maybe I could become active, and I did make an appointment with my Bishop and tearfully repented and then reanalyzed to be immature, naive, and simplistic reaching beyond the mark view of the gospel of Christ.

Every question didn’t need to be tidally answered when seeing through a glass darkly when that is all most of us ever get. When I came to myself when you think of the prodigal son in Luke Chapter 15, that I sinned against heaven and was dead, and I was dead spiritually. I saw the light again because I was lost and now I was found. I assure you that those words during my anti Mormon days would never have crossed my lips. At age 48 I married a Mormon, a faithful Mormon, because I didn’t intend to ever leave the Church again. It is too painful to remember the old life and I am too happy in my new one learning to love people in the Church of all ethnic backgrounds, all ages, all walks of life. Church is a marvelous community

Bill: I just wanted to add one thing to that. I wasn’t much of one to go on discussion boards, I would use some internet sites. I was at my peak of serving faithfully as a Bishop, and I am angry and bitter and I feel like I have been deceived and the Church betrayed me. So I go online to a discussion board and I start asking discussions and I ask them in a tough way because I am angry and right away several people assume I am a critic of the Church trying to string them along with all of these question. But there was one person who private messaged me off to the side and said, “Hey I really want to understand where you’re coming from”. I think so often we want to jump to conclusions about people, but we ought to just slow down and really see what their motives are. The outward behavior may have nothing to do with what is going on in the heart, and we ought to slow down people.

I want to spend about 10 more minutes here trying to address a couple of important questions and at that point I can see there are a lot of questions you want to ask, which is wonderful.

What had to change in your framework, to allow for a return to faith?

Don: So one thing that has been mentioned already, is being open other ways of knowing, spiritual ways of knowing. In other ways, not trying to put God in my box. Not seeing that God has to operate in certain parameters. I am content now to let God be God and I’ll be Don. However he wants to work is up to him. So I am not setting up artificial boundaries that I used to say no, this can’t be God’s way. I was becoming open to new questions, questions. Each time you ask a question, it focuses your attention somewhere, and the questions I was asking weren’t getting anywhere and keeping me where I was. I was not very happy. They were giving me a view, like in my research, I was asking questions about Joseph Smith who was the primary object of my research. Like cynical questions like “What was in it for him?” about anything that he did. Think about it, if with anyone you know, if you were to always have the question in mind with everything that person did, “What’s in it for him,” or “What’s in it for her?” What would your relationship be like? How would you end up viewing that person by expanding out and ask different questions. Also essential for me was just, I think it’s remarkable, what can change as we become happier, like I am so much happier now then I was, when I lost my faith. Part of that has been the return and the place that I am at. Part of that change of my growing in happiness happened first, which I think was essential, because when we are unhappy, it focuses us on negative things. We get ourselves trapped. What happened is I worked on becoming a more grateful person, gravitated toward thinking about the people I was grateful to. As I became happier, I was able to think more clearly and see more possibilities in my life, including my faith. Things I hadn’t thought before could work, could work.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Tacenda