Members Excommunicated Who Enter Same-Sex Marriages?

[rockpond]

I agree.

 

But it also doesn't mean that God's will isn't identical.  It's the idea that because people are born gay that means that God supports homosexual relationships that i struggle with.  I'm born with all sorts of things that I know God does not support.  

 

I guess i just really don't like the 'you were perfect just the way God made you' message that we get inundated with these days.  It's such baloney, regardless of whether we are gay or straight.  

 

I agree.  "Born that way" on its own is not a good argument to make in support of homosexual relationships.

[ERayR]

I can't speak for the person who used the comparison in this thread, but i think that for most people, they use it only because it is one of those behaviors that people universally agree on as being bad.  

 

It's hard to say 'look, people are born with *this* and acting on it is a sin so just being born a certain way doesn't mean anything' when the people you are talking to don't think that particular behavior you chose to illustrate is a sin at all.  Thus, the tendency to go to the worst case scenario.  

 

When i have seen it used in the past it was not to suggest that pedophiles and homosexuals were committing equal sins or were 'the same'.  It's not a great comparison to use because it's so emotionally charged though.  To much baggage, to horrible...

 

One could simply say everyone's sins are bad and wrong except my own.

[Calm]

Definitely.  But because there is an inborn desire (pedophilia) that God doesn't want us to act on doesn't mean that God's will is identical for another inborn desire (homosexual orientation).  I think we ought to take it one step further and ask "why would/wouldn't God want us to act on that inborn desire?"

The heterosexuals in his example also have the inborn desire to be with someone and it is church policy for them not to be as long as they are not married and they have expectations they will not get married in this lifetime.

[JLHPROF]

Definitely.  But because there is an inborn desire (pedophilia) that God doesn't want us to act on doesn't mean that God's will is identical for another inborn desire (homosexual orientation).  I think we ought to take it one step further and ask "why would/wouldn't God want us to act on that inborn desire?"

 

Inborn desire.  Sounds very mortal/fallen to me.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Definitely.  But because there is an inborn desire (pedophilia) that God doesn't want us to act on doesn't mean that God's will is identical for another inborn desire (homosexual orientation).  I think we ought to take it one step further and ask "why would/wouldn't God want us to act on that inborn desire?"

What is the purpose for male and female?

[rockpond]

Inborn desire. Sounds very mortal/fallen to me.

Agreed. That's why I said that "inborn desire" is not, in my opinion, and argument in favor of homosexual relationships/marriages.

[rockpond]

What is the purpose for male and female?

I think there are many. The most obvious being the creation of life via mortal bodies.

[rockpond]

What is the purpose for male and female?

I think there are many. The most obvious being the creation of life via mortal bodies.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think there are many. The most obvious being the creation of life via mortal bodies.

Very good. So, there is a purpose on the plan God laid out includes male and female together? In what purpose is 2 guys or 2 girls being together serve? What is the plan there?

[rockpond]

Very good. So, there is a purpose on the plan God laid out includes male and female together? In what purpose is 2 guys or 2 girls being together serve? What is the plan there?

Aside from independently creating mortal life, I believe that gay couples are capable of everything else that OSA couples are capable of.

[Mystery Meat]

Steve only cited one person/example with an inborn desire the he could not act on (pedophilia) and acting on that desire creates a victim.

 

All of the others are prevented from marriage by external forces rather than church policy.  We'd rejoice if any of them had the opportunity to marry.

 

I think you are missing the point. No one is saying that homosexuality is the same as pedophilia on the scale of sin/wrong and thus there was no comparison to the nature of the acts themselves. Every single person has seemingly unjust circumstances into which they were born. That is the nature of mortality. Some are born with SSM, some are born with ambiguous genitalia, some are born with physical or mental limitations, some are born with hyperactive hormones. All are expected to live by the Lord's standard.

 

Had the poster you are criticizing actually compared the two acts I would be with you.

[rockpond]

I think you are missing the point. No one is saying that homosexuality is the same as pedophilia on the scale of sin/wrong and thus there was no comparison to the nature of the acts themselves. Every single person has seemingly unjust circumstances into which they were born. That is the nature of mortality. Some are born with SSM, some are born with ambiguous genitalia, some are born with physical or mental limitations, some are born with hyperactive hormones. All are expected to live by the Lord's standard.

Had the poster you are criticizing actually compared the two acts I would be with you.

Nope, I didn't miss that point. Regardless of what conditions we may be born with, we are all expected to live the Lord's standard.

My point with the comparison was that "being born with pedophilia" does not make acting it right or wrong. In the same way, being born with a homosexual orientation does not make acting on it right or wrong.

We've got to look a little deeper.

[JLHPROF]

Aside from independently creating mortal life, I believe that gay couples are capable of everything else that OSA couples are capable of.

 

And God's work is to further life.  By providing spirit children, and mortal bodies, and resurrections with eternal life.  God (being male and female) is all about creating life.  The one thing gay couples can't do.

[rockpond]

And God's work is to further life. By providing spirit children, and mortal bodies, and resurrections with eternal life. God (being male and female) is all about creating life. The one thing gay couples can't do.

God's work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, right? The procreative sexual act (the one thing gay couples can't do) is just one small piece of that. There is plenty that gay couples can do to contribute.

[Russell C McGregor]

God's work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, right? The procreative sexual act (the one thing gay couples can't do) is just one small piece of that. There is plenty that gay couples can do to contribute.

No, there is not.

Not according to the doctrine accepted by believing, and adhered to by faithful, Latter-day Saints.

According to that doctrine, "gay" individuals can indeed contribute.

But their participation needs to be on the same basis as everyone else's.

They need to have faith in the Lord, repent of their sins -- including, or especially, their favourite ones -- and obey the Gospel.

They need to put off the natural man and become saints through the atonement of Christ.

The Kingdom of God does not have privileged classes. They don't get to have special exemptions just for them.

Sorry.

 

[carbon dioxide]

God's work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, right? The procreative sexual act (the one thing gay couples can't do) is just one small piece of that. There is plenty that gay couples can do to contribute.

There are plenty of examples of loving, heterosexuals living together outside of marriage who can contribute as well.  The fact that they have not had a wedding is just one thing. 

[Duncan]

No, there is not.

Not according to the doctrine accepted by believing, and adhered to by faithful, Latter-day Saints.

According to that doctrine, "gay" individuals can indeed contribute.

But their participation needs to be on the same basis as everyone else's.

They need to have faith in the Lord, repent of their sins -- including, or especially, their favourite ones -- and obey the Gospel.

They need to put off the natural man and become saints through the atonement of Christ.

The Kingdom of God does not have privileged classes. They don't get to have special exemptions just for them.

Sorry.

 

 

 

Putting aside the holier then thou implications from this, what happens to gay people, who adhere to the Gospel plan here, what will happen to them in the next life? 

[Duncan]

There are plenty of examples of loving, heterosexuals living together outside of marriage who can contribute as well.  The fact that they have not had a wedding is just one thing. 

 

Pres. Monson and Elder Richard Scott are Single Adults, they like me have had a wedding at one point in their life, they like me are not currently married

[thesometimesaint]

God will reward everyone for what they did with what they had. Now some of us won't like what we're reward with, but it ours.

[Calm]

Putting aside the holier then thou implications from this, what happens to gay people, who adhere to the Gospel plan here, what will happen to them in the next life? 

We don't even know what will happen to heterosexual people in the next life, at least not much of it.

 

From JS:  

When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. 

 

If it will be a great while after we have died and the veil has been lifted/passed through before we have learned the principles of the Gospel up to and including all the principles of exaltation...which imo is about the nature of God and our ultimate relationship with him which will turn our nature into gods, it seems to me we have been given only the very basic idea, a few rungs so to speak, just enough perhaps to get us high enough to sort of see where the road is going for us up until death and that the road is one worth traveling.  Man must learn the nature of God, but I see no reason that we can even begin to learn what that is (and therefore what we are) beyond simple basics....he is a father...a perfect father and therefore he is one who loves and one we can trust.

 

Since it is continuing ed after death for everyone...not just those not exposed to the gospel in this life...but even a huge amount for those that were, one should look at the potential for change just brought about by the very basic principles we do know in the here and now and think about how much more change may be brought about.  If there is knowledge and then obviously experience as learning principles is about doing those principles the right way (or rejecting them) that is going to takes us "a great while" (1000 years perhaps?) to learn what being in God's family means, the final product is going to be a much more developed and layered picture of what divinity/humanity can become.  I don't think we will need much more learning right from wrong after mortality, but what we will be learning is what our true selves can be and developing those aspects so as to be able to walk with our Father as his children as well as his subjects.

 

Our mortal experience and everything we are obsessed with during these years, may end up being like the grain of sand at the core of a pearl...the necessary foundation one could say, but not something that is obviously tied to the beauty and marvel that comes about through our response to that mite.

 

All this goes back to me is that I think it is a waste of time to insist that exalted humanity is going be a certain way when even Joseph Smith said he was going to have to learn so much more after death to move to that point of existence.  We know what will get us to the door of the next stage and what we need to do be ready to pass through the door, what brings us through and what awaits us on the other side may be familiar given the 'rung' metaphor and we will be eased into that which we could never comprehend in our current state or it may be a culture shock and the adjustment will be like looking at a complicated math problem and only knowing addition...and having to go through all the work of learning the basics, slowing recognizing more and more of what is going on in the equations until, if we don't give up, get the final solution...which is probably the answer to life, the universe and everything.

 

In the here and now the solution comes across as rather simple---something along the lines of '42'---and that is fine because we only need to work on simple things like love and trust and understanding and faith and hope and charity, we need to learn what it means to be a caring family and then extend it to the world...the principles are simple here, the problems that makes it all so complicated are the obstacles we create for ourselves by our childish nature not wanted to grow up (the childish self fears being lost, but when we are childlike and trusting, our self is enhanced and developed while still always being there at the core so there isn't really anything to fear even if we have no clue what we will end up being.

[williamsmith]

I know of so many who have had extramarital affairs, broken up temple marriages, etc., who have not faced any type of discipline.  Just a couple of years ago, a wife from one family in our ward and a husband of another family (both in leadership positions, married in the temple with many children), had an affair, left their respective spouses and are now married to each other.  Neither one of them were disciplined (they moved to another ward and are now back in our ward).  I know of others as well.

 

Is entering a same-sex marriage more serious than that?

 

I know many will say that it depends on the ward and stake leaders and I get that.  

 

Just thinking out loud here as I know this shouldn't surprise me!

 

Sadly, when people move Wards nothing ends up happening and Bishop's don't care to do anything about sins that are in the past but have gone unpunished.

Unless one of the party's try's to pursue things, but even then many Bishop's don't care to do anything in relation to divorces.

They sadly just look at it as "sour grapes" and people should just move on, start over, live their own lives, the sins of spouses throwing away family and spouses don't matter to the Church for some reason.

 

Sure, it's not that some and many don't do things when they can, but unless they are directly involved, Bishop's for some reason don't wish to do anything.  It's like they've been instructed to not get involved in Marital issues.

To me that's a shame, something that should seriously change with the Church.  Many family's are being destroyed when they might be able to be saved, because many people aren't being held accountable for their actions and/or disciplined for their actions.

Some of it is related to them thinking that it's better to try not to drive them away so they can repent, but still, think it's been taken too far.

Edited May 12, 2015 by williamsmith

[Senator]

Sadly, when people move Wards nothing ends up happening and Bishop's don't care to do anything about sins that are in the past but have gone unpunished.

Unless one of the party's try's to pursue things, but even then many Bishop's don't care to do anything in relation to divorces.

They sadly just look at it as "sour grapes" and people should just move on, start over, live their own lives, the sins of spouses throwing away family and spouses don't matter to the Church for some reason.

 

Sure, it's not that some and many don't do things when they can, but unless they are directly involved, Bishop's for some reason don't wish to do anything.  It's like they've been instructed to not get involved in Marital issues.

To me that's a shame, something that should seriously change with the Church.  Many family's are being destroyed when they might be able to be saved, because many people aren't being held accountable for their actions and/or disciplined for their actions.

Some of it is related to them thinking that it's better to try not to drive them away so they can repent, but still, think it's been taken too far.

 

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

We don't even know what will happen to heterosexual people in the next life, at least not much of it.

 

It's true, there is very little that we know. I heard something this morning that applies here. I'll paraphrase-

"Sometimes in the church we become prideful for having all the answers to the questions no one is asking."

I find this to be true. We often act like we know have all the answers, like "where did the native americans come from?" The restoration has an answer for that. It was a big question and topic of conversation in the early 19th century as settlements were expanding westward into indian territory. But it's an answer to a question that doesn't necessarily speak to the needs and interests of people today.

I like this concept because it illustrates that there are questions that are pressing to us. Like "if gays don't fit the church's plan of happiness what is God's plan for them?" That's a pressing issue it would be nice to get some answers to.

[thesometimesaint]

What is God supposed to do with someone who refuses to repent?

[rodheadlee]

 

 . Like "if gays don't fit the church's plan of happiness what is God's plan for them?" That's a pressing issue it would be nice to get some answers to.

The same as it is for the rest of us. We are to change our lives at baptism and be reborn. Go and sin no more.