Gray Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 What is God supposed to do with someone who refuses to repent? What if God never asked them to do so in the first place?
thesometimesaint Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 What if God never asked them to do so in the first place? We ALL need to repent if not then both of us are in the wrong religion.
Gray Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 We ALL need to repent if not then both of us are in the wrong religion. Do you need to repent of your marriage? Your affiliation with the church? Your military service? I don't think so.
thesometimesaint Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Do you need to repent of your marriage? Your affiliation with the church? Your military service? I don't think so. The Church gets to define what it considers a sin. If there were to come a time when I seriously disagree with the Church. Then I'm free to leave. So far I've never had that serious of a disagreement with the Church. BTW Nothing says I have agree with some individuals interpretation of what the Church says. In a slightly less serious vein. We do have the WoW, but we also have some members with the gospel hobby of telling others what it means. Edited May 12, 2015 by thesometimesaint 1
Gray Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) The Church gets to define what it considers a sin. But that's a different question than the question of what God might consider to be sinful Edited May 12, 2015 by Gray
thesometimesaint Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 But that's a different question than the question of what God might consider to be sinful Not really. The Church claims to speak for God. If it doesn't then both of us are in the wrong religion. 3
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Aside from independently creating mortal life, I believe that gay couples are capable of everything else that OSA couples are capable of.On what basis? Certainly not the scriptures or the prophets. Not even nature testifies to that position. I mean you don't have a foundation for that claim. There is none. 2
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Putting aside the holier then thou implications from this, what happens to gay people, who adhere to the Gospel plan here, what will happen to them in the next life? Really? Why would it be any different than anyone else? 4
HappyJackWagon Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 The same as it is for the rest of us. We are to change our lives at baptism and be reborn. Go and sin no more. This doesn't answer anything and completely dismisses the issue. Are gays supposed to be alone for eternity or will they exist in families? How/why? Will they still be gay in eternity or will they somehow change to hetero? How/why? How will they fulfill the measure of their creation? how/why? Do you know answers to these essential questions? I don't. 1
Gray Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Not really. The Church claims to speak for God. If it doesn't then both of us are in the wrong religion. The church has not claimed any such thing on this issue. And in any case, I think greater caution should be used in claiming that God thinks this or God thinks that. It's too cheap, too easy.
ERayR Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 This doesn't answer anything and completely dismisses the issue.Are gays supposed to be alone for eternity or will they exist in families? How/why?Will they still be gay in eternity or will they somehow change to hetero? How/why?How will they fulfill the measure of their creation? how/why?Do you know answers to these essential questions? I don't. What issue? It is only an issue if you don't trust in Christ. Unrevealed but the promise is all will attain a position that will maximize our happiness. It is called faith and trust in Christ, Unrevealed. Whatever it is it will be that which will allow us to will maximize our happiness. It is called faith and trust in Christ, How do you know what the measure of their creation is? There are other life circumstances that could elicit the same question. Nope I do not have the answer but I do have faith in Jesus Christ and his ability to solve the problems. 4
HappyJackWagon Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 What issue? It is only an issue if you don't trust in Christ. Unrevealed but the promise is all will attain a position that will maximize our happiness. It is called faith and trust in Christ, Unrevealed. Whatever it is it will be that which will allow us to will maximize our happiness. It is called faith and trust in Christ, How do you know what the measure of their creation is? There are other life circumstances that could elicit the same question. Nope I do not have the answer but I do have faith in Jesus Christ and his ability to solve the problems. It's always frustrating when people are incapable of even recognizing the struggle some people face. All the church is saying to gay people now is that they are not acceptable and that their families are counterfeit. That who they are at their core isn't good enough. If they are to accept the church's teachings they are required to accept a LOT more uncertainty than others of us face because we don't know anything about how it will work. OR the prophet could reveal something that would be useful. If prophets of old could receive revelation about where a nephite alter once stood, I think it's reasonable to hope they would seek and receive revelation about the eternal nature of the gay population of God's children. 4
rockpond Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 On what basis? Certainly not the scriptures or the prophets. Not even nature testifies to that position. I mean you don't have a foundation for that claim. There is none. On what basis? Just life. Other than procreation, what can heterosexual couples do that gay couples cannot?
Maestrophil Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 On what basis? Just life. Other than procreation, what can heterosexual couples do that gay couples cannot? Have non-homosexual intercourse?
Tacenda Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 It's always frustrating when people are incapable of even recognizing the struggle some people face. All the church is saying to gay people now is that they are not acceptable and that their families are counterfeit. That who they are at their core isn't good enough. If they are to accept the church's teachings they are required to accept a LOT more uncertainty than others of us face because we don't know anything about how it will work. OR the prophet could reveal something that would be useful.If prophets of old could receive revelation about where a nephite alter once stood, I think it's reasonable to hope they would seek and receive revelation about the eternal nature of the gay population of God's children.Wells Fargo sure accepts them, maybe the church needs to close all their bank accounts and go back to Zions. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/wells-fargo-lesbian-couple-asl_n_7163254.html
Scott Lloyd Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) What issue? It is only an issue if you don't trust in Christ. Unrevealed but the promise is all will attain a position that will maximize our happiness. It is called faith and trust in Christ, Unrevealed. Whatever it is it will be that which will allow us to will maximize our happiness. It is called faith and trust in Christ, How do you know what the measure of their creation is? There are other life circumstances that could elicit the same question. Nope I do not have the answer but I do have faith in Jesus Christ and his ability to solve the problems. It's always frustrating when people are incapable of even recognizing the struggle some people face. All the church is saying to gay people now is that they are not acceptable and that their families are counterfeit. That who they are at their core isn't good enough. If they are to accept the church's teachings they are required to accept a LOT more uncertainty than others of us face because we don't know anything about how it will work. OR the prophet could reveal something that would be useful.If prophets of old could receive revelation about where a nephite alter once stood, I think it's reasonable to hope they would seek and receive revelation about the eternal nature of the gay population of God's children.I've understood Elder Lance B. Wickman to have expressed the position of the Church when he said this: ELDER WICKMAN: One question that might be asked by somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is, “Is this something I’m stuck with forever? What bearing does this have on eternal life? If I can somehow make it through this life, when I appear on the other side, what will I be like?”Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course.(Emphasis mine) For what it's worth, this is what I wholeheartedly believe. Edited May 12, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 4
thesometimesaint Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) The church has not claimed any such thing on this issue. And in any case, I think greater caution should be used in claiming that God thinks this or God thinks that. It's too cheap, too easy. HUH? Did the Church not issue The Proclamation on the Family? I'm all in favor of being more cautious in most claims. But the Truth Claims of the Church isn't one of them. Sure its cheap and easy. We are all free to decide if we will follow what the Church says. But what is the alternative? Does everyone get to decide for themselves what the Church teaches? Do we not affirm, and support, our leaders as representatives of God? Edited May 12, 2015 by thesometimesaint 1
rockpond Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Have non-homosexual intercourse? True. Circular, but true.
Gray Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 HUH? Did the Church not issue The Proclamation on the Family? I'm all in favor of being more cautious in most claims. But the Truth Claims of the Church isn't one of them. Sure its cheap and easy. We are all free to decide if we will follow what the Church says. But what is the alternative? Does everyone get to decide for themselves what the Church teaches? Do we not affirm, and support, our leaders as representatives of God? The church has not claimed that the POTF represents a revelation from God. If supporting your leaders means you must agree with them on all things, then you will quickly find yourself wrapped up in untenable contradictions. So yes, at the end of the day, we must all decide for ourselves. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 The church has not claimed that the POTF represents a revelation from God. Bonnie L. Oscarson in the recent general conference called it a "revelatory document." It does not contain new revelation, but it does amount to revelation from God. And the issuance of the proclamation, and the concomitant emphasis of its content, is inspired. 1
rockpond Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Bonnie L. Oscarson in the recent general conference called it a "revelatory document." It does not contain new revelation, but it does amount to revelation from God. And the issuance of the proclamation, and the concomitant emphasis of its content, is inspired. And you understand her to be saying that it was revealed from God? On what basis would Sister Oscarson make such a claim? And if you are right that it was a revelation from God, you should ask the Brethen who signed it to stop taking credit as its authors.
Gray Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Bonnie L. Oscarson in the recent general conference called it a "revelatory document." It does not contain new revelation, but it does amount to revelation from God. And the issuance of the proclamation, and the concomitant emphasis of its content, is inspired. Yes, like I said, the church has not claimed that the POTF represents a revelation from God. Bonnie Oscarson may feel differently.
Duncan Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Really? Why would it be any different than anyone else? are they still gay in the next life? why be gay here then? would they be fixed? I just want to see policies reflect doctrine, not personal views, like i've heard someone in leadership say "new First Presidency, new policy"-that was in regards to no divorced man will ever be called to serve as a YSA Bishop and apparently you have to be divorced 20 years before being called as a Bishop (now, who wants to be a Bishop is beyond me) Like God cares about that and revealed that? all these other actual, big issues he seems to be silent or indifferent to
thesometimesaint Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) The church has not claimed that the POTF represents a revelation from God. If supporting your leaders means you must agree with them on all things, then you will quickly find yourself wrapped up in untenable contradictions. So yes, at the end of the day, we must all decide for ourselves. Yes it does. The very first sentence in it says: "We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children". I never said I always agree with anyone, because I don't. The only person I always agree with is myself, and I'm entitled to change my mind. I said I agree with the Truth Claims of the Church. The PotF is one such Truth Claim. We individually, for ourselves, don't get to decide what the Church teaches. We do individually, for ourselves, get to decide if we individually, for ourselves, will follow that teaching. IE; If I were to teach in my HP Group that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet of God. It wouldn't be too long before I had a nice talk with my Bishop. Edited May 12, 2015 by thesometimesaint
Gray Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Yes it does. The very first sentence in it says: "We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children". I don't see the word revelation in there. I never said I always agree with anyone, because I don't. The only person I always agree with is myself, and I'm entitled to change my mind. I said I agree with the Truth Claims of the Church. The PotF is one such Truth Claim. We individually, for ourselves, don't get to decide what the Church teaches. We do individually, for ourselves, get to decide if we individually, for ourselves, will follow that teaching. IE; If I were to teach in my HP Group that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet of God. It wouldn't be too long before I had a nice talk with my Bishop. I don't disagree that this is what the church teaches. But that's a different question from whether or not it's right, or whether or not it has a revelatory basis. The church teaches a global flood too. I doubt you agree with it. My responses in blue, thanks
Recommended Posts