ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) If this is already being discussed on another thread, I haven't seen it (I apologize for the double post if it is). But is it true that the church is excommunicating gay members who are getting married? (Same-sex marriage.) There's a podcast about it by John Dehlin (I rarely listen to any of his podcasts, but this caught my eye when I was searching for something). Here's a quote: Taylor Knuth-Bishop was an active LDS Church member and seminary graduate who considered himself “heterosexual with same-sex attraction” until he met the love of his life, Sean Knuth-Bishop. Taylor and Sean fell in love and were eventually legally married during the now-famous 2014 Grammy performance wherein Macklemore, Madonna, and Queen Latifa married 33 same-sex couples during the performance of “Same Love.”Taylor and Sean have been living a happy life in New York City in the theatre industry, but recently (after moving home for the summer) Taylor was contacted by his LDS bishop and informed that he will be tried in a disciplinary council for the simple act of being legally same-sex married to Sean. (Note: I have been informed this week of two other gay couples who are facing LDS Church discipline for the same reason.) Edited May 7, 2015 by ALarson
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 If this is already being discussed on another thread, I haven't seen it (I apologize for the double post if it is). But is it true that the church is excommunicating gay members who are getting married? (Same-sex marriage.) There's a podcast about it by John Dehlin (I rarely listen to any of his podcasts, but this caught my eye when I was searching for something). Here's a quote:Would this be surprising if they were? 4
Popular Post ksfisher Posted May 7, 2015 Popular Post Posted May 7, 2015 Would anyone expect to not be excommunicated for entering into a same-sex marriage? 7
ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 Would this be surprising if they were?Not really. I just hadn't realized this was happening and that couples were being formally disciplined or excommunicated.
ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 I know of so many who have had extramarital affairs, broken up temple marriages, etc., who have not faced any type of discipline. Just a couple of years ago, a wife from one family in our ward and a husband of another family (both in leadership positions, married in the temple with many children), had an affair, left their respective spouses and are now married to each other. Neither one of them were disciplined (they moved to another ward and are now back in our ward). I know of others as well. Is entering a same-sex marriage more serious than that? I know many will say that it depends on the ward and stake leaders and I get that. Just thinking out loud here as I know this shouldn't surprise me! 1
Popular Post ksfisher Posted May 7, 2015 Popular Post Posted May 7, 2015 I know of so many who have had extramarital affairs, broken up temple marriages, etc., who have not faced any type of discipline. Just a couple of years ago, a wife from one family in our ward and a husband of another family (both in leadership positions, married in the temple with many children), had an affair, left their respective spouses and are now married to each other. Neither one of them were disciplined (they moved to another ward and are now back in our ward). I know of others as well. This scenario seems difficult to believe. Perhaps you're just unaware of the church discipline that resulted from what you described. That would not be surprising as church disciplinary proceedings are confidential. 7
Boanerges Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I bet General Handbook 1 addresses it. Anyone with access care to share?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I know of so many who have had extramarital affairs, broken up temple marriages, etc., who have not faced any type of discipline. Just a couple of years ago, a wife from one family in our ward and a husband of another family (both in leadership positions, married in the temple with many children), had an affair, left their respective spouses and are now married to each other. Neither one of them were disciplined (they moved to another ward and are now back in our ward). I know of others as well. Is entering a same-sex marriage more serious than that? I know many will say that it depends on the ward and stake leaders and I get that. Just thinking out loud here as I know this shouldn't surprise me!Not that you would actually know if they were ex'ed or not. As far as the doctrine of the church is concerned the above is an act that should get you excommunicated. I have heard of people getting ex'ed just for cheating. So, I'll raise your anecdotal evidence with my one anecdotal evidence.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 This scenario seems difficult to believe. Perhaps you're just unaware of the church discipline that resulted from what you described. That would not be surprising as church disciplinary proceedings are confidential.Exactly. 1
ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 This scenario seems difficult to believe. Perhaps you're just unaware of the church discipline that resulted from what you described. That would not be surprising as church disciplinary proceedings are confidential.Nope, I know all involved and they were not disciplined. I was actually friends with both couples and had no idea the affair was going on (for years). Our Bishop did call their new Bishop to fill him in after they moved, but he never took any action against them and none was taken when they returned to our ward. It caused a lot of bad feelings and was horrible for the children. Many were left wondering why no discipline. I just figure it's between them and God.
teddyaware Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) I know of so many who have had extramarital affairs, broken up temple marriages, etc., who have not faced any type of discipline. Just a couple of years ago, a wife from one family in our ward and a husband of another family (both in leadership positions, married in the temple with many children), had an affair, left their respective spouses and are now married to each other. Neither one of them were disciplined (they moved to another ward and are now back in our ward). I know of others as well. Is entering a same-sex marriage more serious than that? I know many will say that it depends on the ward and stake leaders and I get that. Just thinking out loud here as I know this shouldn't surprise me! I'm surprised to hear some heterosexual adulterers have not had to face any kind of Church discipline. I wonder what that's all about? I'm curious to know if others on the board have heard of similar cases of adulterers who have faced no Church discipline. As most know, the scriptures teach adultery is second only to murder on the list of serious sins. Edited May 7, 2015 by teddyaware 1
ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Not that you would actually know if they were ex'ed or not. As far as the doctrine of the church is concerned the above is an act that should get you excommunicated. I have heard of people getting ex'ed just for cheating. So, I'll raise your anecdotal evidence with my one anecdotal evidence.Yes, I do know. Read my post above yours. (And, mine is not anecdotal as I'm personally acquainted with all involved.) It happened, but I don't know why. Again, it's between them and God now. Edited May 7, 2015 by ALarson
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 If this is already being discussed on another thread, I haven't seen it (I apologize for the double post if it is). But is it true that the church is excommunicating gay members who are getting married? (Same-sex marriage.) There's a podcast about it by John Dehlin (I rarely listen to any of his podcasts, but this caught my eye when I was searching for something). Here's a quote:As they should be. Why is John even surprised? Oh yeah, he thinks the guys at church head quarters are just CEO's of a corporation. No real authority. God doesn't really exist. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Nope, I know all involved and they were not disciplined. I was actually friends with both couples and had no idea the affair was going on (for years). Our Bishop did call their new Bishop to fill him in after they moved, but he never took any action against them and none was taken when they returned to our ward. It caused a lot of bad feelings and was horrible for the children. Many were left wondering why no discipline. I just figure it's between them and God.Bad on the bishop then. Of course we are just left taking your word on it. So dunno were to go from here. I find it really hard to believe the bishop was like "Ok so you cheated on your temple covenants and you are leaving your wife. Welp, big gulps huh? See you later." Edited May 7, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 2
ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 I'm surprised to hear some heterosexual adulterers have not had to face any kind of Church discipline. I wonder what that's all about? I'm curious to know if others on the board have heard of similar cases of adulterers who have faced no Church discipline. As most know, the scriptures teach adultery is second only to murder on the list of serious sins.I completely agree. But, it happens.
ksfisher Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I have heard of people getting ex'ed just for cheating. I've sat on disciplinary councils where a person has been excommunicated for "cheating," others where the person was disfellowshipped. The difference seems to be in the desire to repent that the person has as well as the guidance of the Holy Spirit (mostly the latter). 2
ksfisher Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Nope, I know all involved and they were not disciplined. I was actually friends with both couples and had no idea the affair was going on (for years). Our Bishop did call their new Bishop to fill him in after they moved, but he never took any action against them and none was taken when they returned to our ward. It caused a lot of bad feelings and was horrible for the children. Many were left wondering why no discipline. I just figure it's between them and God. It sounds like your ward/stake is running off a different handbook than mine. With the man who was involved being a Melchizedek Priesthood holder it falls under the stewardship of the Stake President to hold the disciplinary council. I'm having a hard time imagining a bishopric and a stake presidency both saying what you've described is ok. Edited May 7, 2015 by ksfisher 2
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 It sound like your ward/stake is running off a different handbook than mine.One possibility is the bishop just doesn't care to get involved. He does have his agency to do the wrong thing.
ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 As they should be. Why is John even surprised? I'm not saying I disagree. I just didn't know it had happened. I also didn't know they were searching out and disciplining inactive members who had entered a same-sex marriage. (But that's within their rights of course.)
Gray Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) I'm wondering, are they excommunicating inactive members who enter into gay marriages? Because that would be odd - normally excommunications are reserved for active members of the church, or people who challenge the church publicly. Otherwise I'm sure there are millions of inactive straight members who might also be excommunicated or disfellowshipped, if we're tracking them down now and punishing them for their sins. Edited May 7, 2015 by Gray 1
ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 One possibility is the bishop just doesn't care to get involved. He does have his agency to do the wrong thing.Actually our Bishop at the time was a pretty timid guy and I think he just tried to pass it off onto their new Bishop (my opinion). Their new Bishop never took action either and when they moved back, we had a new Bishop. I have no idea what on between them and all the Bishops involved. I just know they never denied having an affair even to their children and they were never disciplined.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) I'm not saying I disagree. I just didn't know it had happened. I also didn't know they were searching out and disciplining inactive members who had entered a same-sex marriage. (But that's within their rights of course.) I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact, I would like to see the church a little more proactively ex'ing those that have no desire to live the gospel specific to temple covenants. Edited May 7, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
ALarson Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) I'm wondering, are they excommunicating inactive members who enter into gay marriages? Because that would be odd - normally excommunications are reserved for active members of the church. Otherwise I'm sure there are millions of inactive members who might also be excommunicated, if we're tracking them down now and punishing them for their sins. According to what I read (I haven't read everything about it yet), they were inactive. Edited to add (and if you read above):It states he moved back home for the summer and was contacted by his Bishop there. I don't know if he'd started attending again when he was home? Edited May 7, 2015 by ALarson
ksfisher Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I'm not saying I disagree. I just didn't know it had happened. I also didn't know they were searching out and disciplining inactive members who had entered a same-sex marriage. (But that's within their rights of course.) If the marriage took place on TV I don't think the bishop had to do much searching.
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