Any Awesome Insights On D&c 86

[JLHPROF]

I was asked to lead a study discussion on D&C 86 in the near future.

 

Anybody have any really interesting insights on D&C 86 that I may not have thought of/heard of?

I am particularly interested in any ideas on verses 8-10.  The wheat and the tares stuff is pretty self explanatory (although any insights on that would also be welcome).

 

I know what I know.  I know what I can google/reference.  But board members frequently provide me new insights.  I'd love some input.

[The Nehor]

What kind of study discussion?

[JLHPROF]

What kind of study discussion?

 

Just a study group.  Some friends and I take turns working our way through the scriptures (D&C right now) and share ideas.

[Darren10]

Therefore, blessed are ye if ye continue in my goodness, a light unto the Gentiles, and through this priesthood, a savior unto my people Israel. The Lord hath said it. Amen.

Here it's saying that priesthood holders serve as types of Christs, or representatives of Christ, bringing Lord's covenant people.

[Darren10]

Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth tbegging to be sentto earth (born as mortals) to work? Would Joseph Smith Jr. be one ofthem?o reap down the fields;

No doubt there's angels (immortal beings) working in the field (the world) for the gospel of Jesus Christ. But in these latter-day restoration, Would this also mean angels (beings in the presence of god the Father)

[bluebell]

I was asked to lead a study discussion on D&C 86 in the near future.

 

Anybody have any really interesting insights on D&C 86 that I may not have thought of/heard of?

I am particularly interested in any ideas on verses 8-10.  The wheat and the tares stuff is pretty self explanatory (although any insights on that would also be welcome).

 

I know what I know.  I know what I can google/reference.  But board members frequently provide me new insights.  I'd love some input.

 

Do you have a smart phone and if yes, do you have the citation index app?  

 

I have found that app to be awesome when trying to find information or teachings on certain scriptures.  All you do is put in the reference and it brings up everything (from talks to writings found in the JS papers) that refer to that reference.

[HappyJackWagon]

On the Wheat and Tares portion, I'm wondering if others feel church discipline compliments or contradicts the idea of allowing the tares to grow up in the wheat until sufficiently mature at harvest. If this harvest is referring to the 2nd coming or judgement in general, then it would seem that the judgement of discipline could be jumping the gun and hurting both wheat and tares. Thoughts?

[bluebell]

On the Wheat and Tares portion, I'm wondering if others feel church discipline compliments or contradicts the idea of allowing the tares to grow up in the wheat until sufficiently mature at harvest. If this harvest is referring to the 2nd coming or judgement in general, then it would seem that the judgement of discipline could be jumping the gun and hurting both wheat and tares. Thoughts?

 

My thoughts on it-Discipline is meant to help 'tares' become 'wheat'.   It is a chance for repentance.  

 

On the other hand, when the tares and wheat are separated in the scriptures, it is done so that the tares can be burned.  It is a final judgement for those who have refused to repent, and not about trying to save them anymore.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

My thoughts on it-Discipline is meant to help 'tares' become 'wheat'.   It is a chance for repentance.  

 

On the other hand, when the tares and wheat are separated in the scriptures, it is done so that the tares can be burned.  It is a final judgement for those who have refused to repent, and not about trying to save them anymore.

 

Sometimes it is about repentence. Sometimes it's about protecting the innocent and sometimes its about protecting the "good name of the church". Sometimes it's about punishment.

I agree that the tares will face the final judgement and they will be separated, but it seems presumptuous to think we should separate them before the final judgement when the scripture seems to indicate we should allow them to grow up together. Maybe being amidst the wheat will help them repent.

[ALarson]

 I agree that the tares will face the final judgement and they will be separated, but it seems presumptuous to think we should separate them before the final judgement when the scripture seems to indicate we should allow them to grow up together. Maybe being amidst the wheat will help them repent.

This is what I believe.  

 

I think it's interesting when I hear members say things like "Well, the sifting of the wheat and the tares is taking place."  Or something along those lines.  When, IIRC, it states in the parable that this won't take place until the final judgement and that the separating will be carried out by angels.

Edited May 7, 2015 by ALarson

[bluebell]

 

 

Sometimes it is about repentence. Sometimes it's about protecting the innocent and sometimes its about protecting the "good name of the church". Sometimes it's about punishment.

I agree that the tares will face the final judgement and they will be separated, but it seems presumptuous to think we should separate them before the final judgement when the scripture seems to indicate we should allow them to grow up together. Maybe being amidst the wheat will help them repent.

 

But even when its to protect the flock, repentance of the individual is still also the goal.  That isn't the case when the separation of the wheat and tares is spoken of in the scriptures.  

 

Also, separating people for apostasy and/or sin is also a part of scripture, so it doesn't seem valid to say that following one verse is correct but following the other is presumptuous.  

[CV75]

I was asked to lead a study discussion on D&C 86 in the near future.

 

Anybody have any really interesting insights on D&C 86 that I may not have thought of/heard of?

I am particularly interested in any ideas on verses 8-10.  The wheat and the tares stuff is pretty self explanatory (although any insights on that would also be welcome).

 

I know what I know.  I know what I can google/reference.  But board members frequently provide me new insights.  I'd love some input.

I see verses 8-11 as a sort of link between D&C 27:9 (2 years earlier) and 110:12-16 (4 years later), and this all led to D&C 131 and 132.

[JLHPROF]

This is what I believe.  

 

I think it's interesting when I hear members say things like "Well, the sifting of the wheat and the tares is taking place."  Or something along those lines.  When, IIRC, it states in the parable that this won't take place until the final judgement and that the separating will be carried out by angels.

 

Wilford Woodruff said the following in 1894:

 

"God has held the angels of destruction for many years, lest they should reap down the wheat with the tares. But I want to tell you now, that those angels have left the portals of heaven, and they stand over this people and this nation now, and are hovering over the earth waiting to pour out the judgments. And from this very day they shall be poured out."

[ALarson]

Wilford Woodruff said the following in 1894:

 

"God has held the angels of destruction for many years, lest they should reap down the wheat with the tares. But I want to tell you now, that those angels have left the portals of heaven, and they stand over this people and this nation now, and are hovering over the earth waiting to pour out the judgments. And from this very day they shall be poured out."

 

And Joseph Smith taught:

“We learn by this parable [of the tares], not only the setting up of the Kingdom in the days of the Savior, which is represented by the good seed, which produced fruit, but also the corruptions of the Church, which are represented by the tares, which were sown by the enemy, which His disciples would fain have plucked up, or cleansed the Church of, if their views had been favored by the Savior. But He, knowing all things, says, Not so. As much as to say, your views are not correct, the Church is in its infancy, and if you take this rash step, you will destroy the wheat, or the Church, with the tares; therefore it is better to let them grow together until the harvest, or the end of the world, which means the destruction of the wicked, which is not yet fulfilled” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 97–98).

 

 

What does President Monson say about this?  Any quotes from him?

Edited May 7, 2015 by ALarson

[CV75]

 Sometimes it is about repentence. Sometimes it's about protecting the innocent and sometimes its about protecting the "good name of the church". Sometimes it's about punishment.

I agree that the tares will face the final judgement and they will be separated, but it seems presumptuous to think we should separate them before the final judgement when the scripture seems to indicate we should allow them to grow up together. Maybe being amidst the wheat will help them repent.

Sometimes it is about not repenting and so having one's name blotted out of the Church records, or using excommunication as a means of repentance for those who will not repent as members. Alma found out what to do when he was troubled over what to do with the unrepentant among them and Mosiah instructed to pray about what to do. the Lord then revealed to him this means of disciplinary process.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Sometimes it is about not repenting and so having one's name blotted out of the Church records, or using excommunication as a means of repentance for those who will not repent as members. Alma found out what to do when he was troubled over what to do with the unrepentant among them and Mosiah instructed to pray about what to do. the Lord then revealed to him this means of disciplinary process.

 

These principles behind these passages seem inconsistent. I recognize they exist, I just find them inconsistent. I think a person would need to privilege one principle over the other even though both can be backed up with scripture.

[JLHPROF]

And Joseph Smith taught:

 

What does President Monson say about this?  Any quotes from him?

 

So who gets to define when the end of the world starts?  Both Joseph and Wilford can still be right.  

[bluebell]

And Joseph Smith taught:

 

What does President Monson say about this?  Any quotes from him?

Since JS had to specifically tell people that it wasn't the 'end of the world' yet ("which is not yet fulfilled"), that seems to imply that this sifting will occur as the end draws nigh, and not exactly the day the world ends or after the end becomes obvious.  Otherwise JS would not have to tell people 'this is happening yet.'

 

 

If that's the case then the quote by WW and this quote by JS are complimentary and not contradictory.  We could very well be in the harvest period right now, which JS said was coming and which WW said was finally here.

[ALarson]

So who gets to define when the end of the world starts?  Both Joseph and Wilford can still be right.  

I guess.  Thus, the confusion and discussion.

 

Again, what has President Monson taught regarding this?

 

I need to read again what Christ specifically taught when he gave this parable, but IIRC, he said this would take place during the final judgment.

Edited May 7, 2015 by ALarson

[teddyaware]

I was asked to lead a study discussion on D&C 86 in the near future.

 

Anybody have any really interesting insights on D&C 86 that I may not have thought of/heard of?

I am particularly interested in any ideas on verses 8-10.  The wheat and the tares stuff is pretty self explanatory (although any insights on that would also be welcome).

 

I know what I know.  I know what I can google/reference.  But board members frequently provide me new insights.  I'd love some input.

 

In Apostle Ezra Taft Benson's April 1969 General Conference address are found some nuggets pertaining to the wheat and tares that will exist within the Restored Church of Christ in the last days.

 

"Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded.

 

It is well that our people understand this principle, so they will not be misled by those apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off. But there is a cleansing coming. The Lord says that his vengeance shall be poured out "upon the inhabitants of the earth . . . And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me" (D&C 112:24-26). I look forward to that cleansing; its need within the Church is becoming increasingly apparent.

 

The Lord strengthened the faith of the early apostles by pointing out Judas as a traitor, even before this apostle had completed his iniquitous work (John 13:21-30). So also in our day the Lord has told us of the tares within (!) the wheat that will eventually be hewn down when they are fully ripe. But until they are hewn down, they will be with us, amongst us (D&C 86:6-7). The hymn entitled "Though in the Outward Church Below" contains this thought:

 

"Though in the outward Church below

Both wheat and tares together grow,

Ere long will Jesus weed the crop

And pluck the tares in anger up . . .

We seem alike when here we meet; 

Strangers may think we are all wheat; 

But to the Lord's all-searching eyes,

Each heart appears without disguise.

The tares are spared for various ends,

Some for the sake of praying friends,

Others the Lord against their will,

Employs, his counsels to fulfill.

But though they grow so tall and strong,

His plan will not require them long; 

In harvest, when he saves his own,

The tares shall into hell be thrown."

    (Hymns, No. 102.)

 

Tares among the wheat

Yes, within the Church today there are tares among the wheat and wolves within the flock. As President Clark stated, "The ravening wolves are amongst us, from our own membership, and they, more than . . . We should be careful of them" (Era, May 1949, p. 268; see also Conference Report, April 1949, p. 163).

 

The wolves amongst our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made this statement.

President McKay has said that "the Church is little, if at all, injured by persecution and calumnies from ignorant, misinformed or malicious enemies. A greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques within its own ecclesiastical and quorum groups" (Era, December 1967, p. 35; see also, Conference Report, October 1967, p. 9)

 

Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: ". . . they have all gone astray save it a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Ne. 28:14)." (Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference Address, April 1969)

Edited May 7, 2015 by teddyaware

[ksfisher]

 

 

Sometimes it is about repentence. Sometimes it's about protecting the innocent and sometimes its about protecting the "good name of the church". Sometimes it's about punishment.

 

 

Having sat on disciplinary councils I can say that the ones I've been involved in have never been about punishment.  No mention of punishment is made in the instructions given by the church.  The three things a disciplinary council sets out to accomplish are, as you've stated above:

 

1) To save the soul of the sinner.

2) To protect the innocent.

3) To protect the good name of the church.

 

At every disciplinary council I've been involved in these three purposes have been reiterated.  Punishment is never mentioned.  Great care is taken to fully understand what has happened in the life of the person involved and to determine the best and quickest path that leads back into full fellowship in the church and an enjoyment of all the blessing that our Heavenly Father has promised to all his children.

 

As you can tell I have very strong feelings about the process.

[Nevo]

"Though in the outward Church below

Both wheat and tares together grow,

Ere long will Jesus weed the crop

And pluck the tares in anger up . . .

We seem alike when here we meet; 

Strangers may think we are all wheat; 

But to the Lord's all-searching eyes,

Each heart appears without disguise.

The tares are spared for various ends,

Some for the sake of praying friends,

Others the Lord against their will,

Employs, his counsels to fulfill.

But though they grow so tall and strong,

His plan will not require them long; 

In harvest, when he saves his own,

The tares shall into hell be thrown."

    (Hymns, No. 102.)

 

Wow. That's pretty harsh.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Wow. That's pretty harsh.

 

Throwing the tares into hell is hardly and uplifting message. Other than inspiring fear in people, what good is this type of message in the church? Does it help us come closer to God in some way? Or is it simply an attempt to scare us into obedience or make us feel prideful in our own righteousness?

[JLHPROF]

 

 

Throwing the tares into hell is hardly and uplifting message. Other than inspiring fear in people, what good is this type of message in the church? Does it help us come closer to God in some way? Or is it simply an attempt to scare us into obedience or make us feel prideful in our own righteousness?

 

Or maybe it's just a statement of fact/natural consequences.  I've never felt that God punished the wicked.  I've always felt that they punished themselves.

Nothing is to be gained by pretending the "tares" won't end up exactly where God has said.

[bluebell]

 

 

Throwing the tares into hell is hardly and uplifting message. Other than inspiring fear in people, what good is this type of message in the church? Does it help us come closer to God in some way? Or is it simply an attempt to scare us into obedience or make us feel prideful in our own righteousness?

 

In the same vein as what JLH said, perhaps there is value in recognizing that God is not only mercy-that He is also just.  The scriptures are constantly teaching that mercy cannot rob justice, and maybe they do that so that we really learn how incredibly important the Atonement is.  

 

When we separate ourselves from the power of the Atonement, the consequences are severe.   I think that's something very important to know.