Any Awesome Insights On D&c 86

[JulieM]

Nothing is to be gained by pretending the "tares" won't end up exactly where God has said.

And, only God can see into the hearts of all and judge or determine who the tares are. And of course, this doesn't just apply to members of the Mormon church, but to everyone.

[JLHPROF]

And, only God can see into the hearts of all and judge or determine who the tares are. And of course, this doesn't just apply to members of the Mormon church, but to everyone.

 

Of course.  Only God (and his angels) get to differentiate between the wheat and the tares.  But stating that the tares will be burned is scripture, not mean spiritedness.

[Mormonmaniac]

I was asked to lead a study discussion on D&C 86 in the near future.

 

Anybody have any really interesting insights on D&C 86 that I may not have thought of/heard of?

I am particularly interested in any ideas on verses 8-10.  The wheat and the tares stuff is pretty self explanatory (although any insights on that would also be welcome).

 

I know what I know.  I know what I can google/reference.  But board members frequently provide me new insights.  I'd love some input.

Having done some searching and praying concerning the wheat and the teares. Reference it to section 101

64 That the work of the gathering together of my saints may continue, that I may build them up unto my name upon holy places; for the time of harvest is come, and my word must needs be fulfilled.

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;

66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.

Celestial glory and the Kingdom of the Father do not happen until after the millennium at the great judgment. The harvest has already begun according to scripture because the names are now being recorded upon holy places (temples) and thus the wheat are being stored as names in the garners which are temples. This gathering and separating will take place until the end of the millennium of Christ's reign when he shall have gathered in perfected, and saved all those the Father gave unto him to save. Then shall the wicked (the tares) remain to be burned and sentenced to an everlasting hell.

[teddyaware]

Wow. That's pretty harsh.

 

The hymn "Though in the Outward Church Below" was written by Eliza R. Snow. Sister Snow lived through those turbulent early days of the Restoration and knew from bitter personal experience the destructive havoc caused by the duplicitous Church members of her day who went over to the dark side. Though in today's politically correct environment her words may seem harsh, they are no more harsh than the words of the scriptures when they speak on the same theme.

 

Like it or not, pleasant to contemplate or not, the word of God lays out the facts pertaining to the wheat and tares of the Church in a straightforward, no-nonsense manner, and He does so because He loves and worries about us. When the Lord chooses to testify to us that the repentant "wheat" will be gathered into the garners and the unrepentant "tares" will be bundled and burned, who am I to exclaim that the Saviour shouldn't be so harsh-sounding in his assessment of reality.

 

As of this very moment, because the Lord has made us free to decide for ourselves, it's within your power and within my power to come unto the Lord with meekness, humility and full purpose of heart so that we might escape His mighty judgments when, as the scriptures abundantly testify, they are poured out upon the wicked without measure.  And like it or not, some will be assigned to the celestial kingdom, some to the terrestrial kingdom, some to the telestial kingdom and some to outer darkness. As the Lord said, "It must needs be that offenses come, but woe be unto him by which they come." This is reality -- the choice is ours.

Edited May 7, 2015 by teddyaware

[CV75]

 These principles behind these passages seem inconsistent. I recognize they exist, I just find them inconsistent. I think a person would need to privilege one principle over the other even though both can be backed up with scripture.

What inconsistency? The parable isn’t about excommunication. Mosiah 26 is very clear and straightforward on how to regulate the affairs of the Church with regards to unrepentant members. Due to the nature of parables on the other hand, some proper insight and interpretation are required, which D&C 86 provides.

 

The case of the wheat and the tares has to do with the Great Apostasy, the Restoration and the Last or Judgement Day and not with the regulation of the affairs of the Church. The wheat and tares are teachings, not people. Members of the Church are people, not ideas. People’s behaviors, not their ideas, are subject to Church discipline. This is why those with apostate ideas may not display behavior that is subject to Church discipline, and why those without apostate ideas may still display behavior that is subject to Church discipline. The regulation of the Church allows improper behavior to be disciplined when it can be identified, but the Church cannot regulate people’s ideas (see D&C 134:4). Thus apostate ideas that are not divulged through sinful behavior grow together with true and correct ideas until the Lord separates the false from the true (as well as the goats from the sheep), in the Last Day or the Day of Judgement.

[ksfisher]

. The wheat and tares are teachings, not people. Members of the Church are people, not ideas.

 

I think that the parable can be read in this way, but, like many parables, can have alternate readings.  In this case I believe that the reading that the wheat and the tares represent people can be correct.  The Lord does not destroy the sinner/tare when he sins, but instead allows him to remain in this life among the wheat, giving the sinner an opportunity to repent and become wheat. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by ksfisher

[HappyJackWagon]

 

What inconsistency? The parable isn’t about excommunication. Mosiah 26 is very clear and straightforward on how to regulate the affairs of the Church with regards to unrepentant members. Due to the nature of parables on the other hand, some proper insight and interpretation are required, which D&C 86 provides.

 

The case of the wheat and the tares has to do with the Great Apostasy, the Restoration and the Last or Judgement Day and not with the regulation of the affairs of the Church. The wheat and tares are teachings, not people. Members of the Church are people, not ideas. People’s behaviors, not their ideas, are subject to Church discipline. This is why those with apostate ideas may not display behavior that is subject to Church discipline, and why those without apostate ideas may still display behavior that is subject to Church discipline. The regulation of the Church allows improper behavior to be disciplined when it can be identified, but the Church cannot regulate people’s ideas (see D&C 134:4). Thus apostate ideas that are not divulged through sinful behavior grow together with true and correct ideas until the Lord separates the false from the true (as well as the goats from the sheep), in the Last Day or the Day of Judgement.

CV75- thanks for that response. What percentage of members would agree with your definition of wheat and tares, ie. ideas/teachings not people? I like that concept but I don't think it is the commonly held view in the church. The inconsistency I see is in the charge on one hand to separate the wicked, and on the other to allow the wheat and tares to grow up together, without separation until the final judgement.

Regarding discipline- behaviors cannot be disciplined. People are disciplined for their behaviors, whether they be immoral sins or sharing "apostate" ideas.

[CV75]

I think that the parable can be read in this way, but, like many parables, can have alternate readings.  In this case I believe that the reading that the wheat and the tares represent people can be correct.  The Lord does not destroy the sinner/tare when he sins, but instead allows him to remain in this life among the wheat, giving the sinner an opportunity to repent and become wheat. 

 

CV75- thanks for that response. What percentage of members would agree with your definition of wheat and tares, ie. ideas/teachings not people? I like that concept but I don't think it is the commonly held view in the church. The inconsistency I see is in the charge on one hand to separate the wicked, and on the other to allow the wheat and tares to grow up together, without separation until the final judgement.

Regarding discipline- behaviors cannot be disciplined. People are disciplined for their behaviors, whether they be immoral sins or sharing "apostate" ideas.

That is why, with regards to the specifics of regulating the affairs of the Church, we are given more explicit scriptural instruction, such as the two references I mentioned already and also D&C 102 and 107. These concepts are followed in the modern Handbooks. Because of the nature of parables and those who take what they will from them, of course people use them as inconsistencies with other scripture, but as I have demonstrated, they really are not. Let’s not quibble over whether we can discipline our behaviors, receive discipline for them, etc. I think we both know what I mean (I hope!).

[JLHPROF]

CV75, on 07 May 2015 - 2:42 PM, said:

. The wheat and tares are teachings, not people. Members of the Church are people, not ideas.

 

I think that the parable can be read in this way, but, like many parables, can have alternate readings.  In this case I believe that the reading that the wheat and the tares represent people can be correct.  The Lord does not destroy the sinner/tare when he sins, but instead allows him to remain in this life among the wheat, giving the sinner an opportunity to repent and become wheat. 

 

So based on this would you compare the wheat and tares to sheep and wolves or sheep and goats.

 

 

Matthew 7:15

Matthew 10:16

- Those who come among the sheep as wolves (false prophets, false teachings, evil intent)

 

Matthew 25:31-33

- Chosen nations/groups separated from the righteous.

 

Which would you say more closely relate to the tares?  Are they wolves or goats?

[ksfisher]

 

CV75, on 07 May 2015 - 2:42 PM, said:

 

 

So based on this would you compare the wheat and tares to sheep and wolves or sheep and goats.

 

 

Matthew 7:15

Matthew 10:16

- Those who come among the sheep as wolves (false prophets, false teachings, evil intent)

 

Matthew 25:31-33

- Chosen nations/groups separated from the righteous.

 

Which would you say more closely relate to the tares?  Are they wolves or goats?

 

 

I would think that the tares and goats are equivalent in scripture. 

[teddyaware]

I would think that the tares and goats are equivalent in scripture. 

 

Not really. The goats have the additional problems of poor personal hygiene and strange eating habits.

Edited May 7, 2015 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Wow. That's pretty harsh.

Would that not depend on what kind of people the tares actually are and what hell is for them?

 

If tares are thieves and murderers, con men, abusers, others that take advantage of those who care for them with no thought of the harm they do others and if hell gives them a chance to repent and heal the harm they have done, not so harsh by my view.

[ksfisher]

Not really. The goats have the additional problems of poor personal hygiene and strange eating habits.

 

Would the goats eat the tares?  Probably, and the wheat as well.

[CV75]

 

So based on this would you compare the wheat and tares to sheep and wolves or sheep and goats.

 

Matthew 7:15

Matthew 10:16

- Those who come among the sheep as wolves (false prophets, false teachings, evil intent)

 

Matthew 25:31-33

- Chosen nations/groups separated from the righteous.

 

Which would you say more closely relate to the tares?  Are they wolves or goats?

 

 

I would think that the tares and goats are equivalent in scripture. 

Taking D&C 86 as my guide, I would say that the wheat in the parable is the word that was sown by the original apostles and tares are the lies that were sown by Satan. I think sheep and goats are not relevant to the story as it is about the condition of the Church, not the condition of the people as they shall be judged. Throughout the circumstances covered by the parable, there were/are both faithful and unfaithful people on the earth, according to the light they possessed and the intents of their hearts, and we know the Lord judges them (D&C 137:7-9), but this is not what that parable is about.

 

The parable gives us an idea of the Lord’s strategy and longsuffering along His timetable. As the Restoration rolls out, we see that many of Satan’s lies are to be alive and well throughout the last days. 1 Nephi 14:12-17 teaches this, and I think this is consistent with the parable.

 

The designation of sheep and goats according to our works seems to be reserved for the Lord to make when He comes in His glory, which I construe to be the Second Coming and/or the Final Judgement. I think we can say that those who came among the sheep as wolves during the period leading to the Great Apostasy may well have carried “tares” and those who do so today also sow “tares,” but I do not think the message as explained in D&C 86 is about sheep, goats or wolves but rather about the Lord’s process and intentions.

 

I don’t see the scriptures about the handling of the affairs of the Church having much to do with either the parable or the metaphors. Instead, they are practical instructions for the legal administrator’s role in the repentance and excommunication processes. I think calling the recpients of discipline "goats" is premature and not our prerogative but he Lord's (according to the NT). Assigning wolfishness and blame for willfully partaking of and sowing tares is an awful responsibility, but the bishops are authorized to do that in line with regulating the affairs of the Church. But this is different than the Lord binding Satan and erradicating all false notions, and is not inconsistent with the Lord and His angels not binding him quite yet.

Edited May 8, 2015 by CV75

[Calm]

Don't forget that tares are not in any way useful as a food crop or anything else besides burning (at least in the parable) so these are not otherwise decent people that have lost belief or for some reason haven't had a spiritual witness or even the not so decent people that on lie for profit on occasion but don't go out of the way to hurt others intentionally.

 

From the parable, these are those who are there for no other reason but to cause harm or deprive others of spiritual life.

[Nevo]

Don't forget that tares are not in any way useful as a food crop or anything else besides burning (at least in the parable) so these are not otherwise decent people that have lost belief or for some reason haven't had a spiritual witness or even the not so decent people that on lie for profit on occasion but don't go out of the way to hurt others intentionally. From the parable, these are those who are there for no other reason but to cause harm or deprive others of spiritual life.

 

So you would define the tares as those Church members who go out of their way to harm others intentionally, who remain in the Church only to "cause harm or deprive others of spiritual life." That may be a valid reading of the parable, but I must say that I have never, in all my decades in the Church, encountered such a person. Or even heard of such a person. Perhaps such purely evil individuals do exist, but their numbers must be negligible (1 in a million? 1 in 10 million?).

 

Elder Benson, on the other hand, seemed to think of the tares in broader terms. In the talk quoted earlier in the thread, he described them as:

• "[Those] who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it."
• "Apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off."
• Those who have "professed to know" Christ but have not known him.
• "Wolves amongst [the] flock," now more "numerous and devious" than ever.
• "Faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques."

Maybe I'm reacting as one of the guilty who take the truth to be hard, but I find the imagery of the Lord throwing "fault-finders, shirkers, commandment-breakers," and misguided "apostates" into hell—treating them like so much worthless trash, fit for nothing but burning—well, I find it rather off-putting and at odds with my sense of God's goodness and justice. I believe God wants to reform sinners, not destroy them. I don't think he looks on anyone as a complete write-off—even "apostates."

Edited May 8, 2015 by Nevo

[Mormonmaniac]

Plain and simply, the tares are the children of the devil and are sent to outer darkness with the devil and his angels.

[Calm]

So you would define the tares as those Church members who go out of their way to harm others intentionally, who remain in the Church only to "cause harm or deprive others of spiritual life." That may be a valid reading of the parable, but I must say that I have never, in all my decades in the Church, encountered such a person. Or even heard of such a person. Perhaps such purely evil individuals do exist, but their numbers must be negligible (1 in a million? 1 in 10 million?).

 

Elder Benson, on the other hand, seemed to think of the tares in broader terms. In the talk quoted earlier in the thread, he described them as:

• "[Those] who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it."
• "Apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off."
• Those who have "professed to know" Christ but have not known him.
• "Wolves amongst [the] flock," now more "numerous and devious" than ever.
• "Faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques."

Maybe I'm reacting as one of the guilty who take the truth to be hard, but I find the imagery of the Lord throwing "fault-finders, shirkers, commandment-breakers," and misguided "apostates" into hell—treating them like so much worthless trash, fit for nothing but burning—well, I find it rather off-putting and at odds with my sense of God's goodness and justice. I believe God wants to reform sinners, not destroy them. I don't think he looks on anyone as a complete write-off—even "apostates."

But don't all of us end up in hell until we actually repent of our sins? If we refuse to repent and instead hold on to them, refused to be purified, are we capable of existing anywhere else at that time?

[Bobbieaware]

So you would define the tares as those Church members who go out of their way to harm others intentionally, who remain in the Church only to "cause harm or deprive others of spiritual life." That may be a valid reading of the parable, but I must say that I have never, in all my decades in the Church, encountered such a person. Or even heard of such a person. Perhaps such purely evil individuals do exist, but their numbers must be negligible (1 in a million? 1 in 10 million?).

Elder Benson, on the other hand, seemed to think of the tares in broader terms. In the talk quoted earlier in the thread, he described them as:

• "[Those] who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it."
• "Apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off."
• Those who have "professed to know" Christ but have not known him.
• "Wolves amongst [the] flock," now more "numerous and devious" than ever.
• "Faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques."

Maybe I'm reacting as one of the guilty who take the truth to be hard, but I find the imagery of the Lord throwing "fault-finders, shirkers, commandment-breakers," and misguided "apostates" into hell—treating them like so much worthless trash, fit for nothing but burning—well, I find it rather off-putting and at odds with my sense of God's goodness and justice. I believe God wants to reform sinners, not destroy them. I don't think he looks on anyone as a complete write-off—even "apostates."

You misunderstand. God didn't throw Alma the younger into hell, and won't throw anyone else into hell because, as you put it, he thinks of them as being "like so much worthless trash" or "fit for nothing but burning." Quite the opposite. D&C 76, D&C 138 and Moses 7 all make it perfectly clear that God only SADLY casts some of his children into hell, and this because he loves them and has their eternal best interests at heart.

Hell is a place and state of mind where the rebellious and unrepentant are caused to suffer for their own sins with the hope that the experience will cause their hearts to soften so that they might eventually learn to come unto Christ with broken hearts and contrite spirits and seek spiritual healing through his forgiveness. For all except for the sons of perdition, hell is a temporary place of habitation where the spiritually dead are exposed to the bitter consequences of their own folly, without mitigation, so that they might learn how to prize and cherish the good and eschew the bad.

A well-read Lartter-day Saint should be aware of the fact that God takes no pleasure in thrusting his children into hell (it actually breaks his heart) but he does it because he knows true happiness and peace of mind can only come to those who are reconciled to God the Father through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. But it must also be understood that God and the prophets often use strong language when warning the saints to repent and remain steadfast, that they might take the warnings to heart and thereby avoid the need to be thrust into hell themselves and there have to learn life's most important lessons the hard way.

God is love.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Calm]

I do think the parable presents an all or nothing scenario of ideals (it doesn't talk about how some of the wheat stalks are probably less developed or producing minimal grain or maybe even none at all, which doesn't mean they are worthless since straw itseld can be used for many things).  I think it is about who we mean to align ourselves with, God or his enemy (which one can choose to mean many things) and the growth of the crop among the tares and the harvesting process itself will give us the time and chance to learn who we wish as individuals to be of value to, if it is God or something else.

[Calm]

According to wiki, "tares" is like the plant darnel given that there was a Roman law forbidding the sowing of darnel seeds among wheat.

 

According to this source, darnel can be useful, but its usefulness outweighs the negative impact of its inappropriate invasion of wheat fields:

 

http://keys.lucidcentral.org/keys/v3/eafrinet/weeds/key/weeds/Media/Html/Lolium_temulentum_(Darnel_Ryegrass).htm

 

Lolium temulentum grass can be used for fodder and for erosion control. However, these uses cannot compensate for this plant's overall negative impacts.

Environmental and other impacts

Lolium temulentum is a weed of wheat farmlands. Even a few grains of this plant will adversely affect crop quality. Its seeds are poisonous to people and livestock. It is very difficult to separate the seeds of L. temulentum from those of what and other small grain crops as they are similar in size and weight. L. temulentum can be a host to a variety of crop pests and diseases.

 

[Nevo]

D&C 76, D&C 138 and Moses 7 all make it perfectly clear that God only SADLY casts some of his children into hell, and this because he loves them and has their eternal best interests at heart. Hell is a place and state of mind where the rebellious and unrepentant are caused to suffer for their own sins with the hope that the experience will cause their hearts to soften so that they might eventually learn to come unto Christ with broken hearts and contrite spirits and seek spiritual healing through his forgiveness. For all except for the sons of perdition, hell is a temporary place of habitation where the spiritually dead are exposed to the bitter consequences of their own folly, without mitigation, so that they might learn how to prize and cherish the good and eschew the bad.

 

Okay, but I think you'll agree that this is a way more optimistic view of hell (and God) than what we find in the parable of the wheat and the tares and in the hymn "Though In the Outward Church Below." There, hell isn't portrayed as "a temporary place of habitation where the spiritually dead are exposed to the bitter consequences of their own folly . . . so that they might learn how to prize and cherish the good and eschew the bad." Rather, it's a place where refuse is burned. Hopefully, your understanding is the correct one.

[Bobbieaware]

Okay, but I think you'll agree that this is a way more optimistic view of hell (and God) than what we find in the parable of the wheat and the tares and in the hymn "Though In the Outward Church Below." There, hell isn't portrayed as "a temporary place of habitation where the spiritually dead are exposed to the bitter consequences of their own folly . . . so that they might learn how to prize and cherish the good and eschew the bad." Rather, it's a place where refuse is burned. Hopefully, your understanding is the correct one.

Mine is the correct perspective. The scriptures must be understood as a whole. Confusion and imbalanced perspectives prevail when we cherry-pick a cluster of passages that come from a single scriptural perspective. In D&C 19, the Lord reveals a secret that we Latter-day Saints always need to keep in mind: Therein the Lord teaches us he often presents gospel concepts in very strick, absolutist terms in the hope that the hearers will get enough wholesome godly fear driven into their hearts and minds that they won't commit serious sins that will destroy their earthly lives, ruin their chances for peace and happiness, and give God no choice but to cast their souls in hell so as to learn the hard way that "wickedness never was happiness."

Remember, in the end only the sons of perdition won't be saved. D&C 76 and 138 make it clear all others will sooner or later become heirs of salvation through Christ and will inherit a glorious existence in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions. All souls, including those who must temporarily be cast into hell, are of great worth to our loving Heavenly Fathet

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Mormonmaniac]

I do think the parable presents an all or nothing scenario of ideals (it doesn't talk about how some of the wheat stalks are probably less developed or producing minimal grain or maybe even none at all, which doesn't mean they are worthless since straw itseld can be used for many things).  I think it is about who we mean to align ourselves with, God or his enemy (which one can choose to mean many things) and the growth of the crop among the tares and the harvesting process itself will give us the time and chance to learn who we wish as individuals to be of value to, if it is God or something else.

But isn't Gods plan truly an all or nothing scenario?

[Calm]

Depends on what you're talking about.

 

Given the three kingdoms and the many mansions referred to in the scriptures, there does appear to be areas where different levels of commitment or involvement are expected.

Edited May 8, 2015 by calmoriah