"room For All Levels Of Belief" Sacrament Meeting Talk

[ALarson]

I just got home from attending our Sacrament meeting and from hearing one of the best talks I've ever heard!

 

The speaker (on direction from our Bishop) spoke on the theme that "All Are Welcome Here".  It was based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and his love for all mankind.  At one point the Bishop even looked directly at me with a sort of "wink and a smile".  He and I are great friends and he knows that I am not longer a literal believer in the Mormon Church but that I still have a great love for the church and for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

The speaker also brought up the "new" church essays and how we will be discussing them in the coming joint sessions (5th Sundays) in our ward under direction from the Stake President who is implementing this in the wards within our stake.  Again, great news.

 

I spoke with the Bishop after the meeting and he said that with so many members coming to him with questions and doubts, he wants to do all he can to keep them attending and to let them know they are loved.  We already have an informal group that discusses the essays that I'm involved in (along with one of the counselors in the bishopric).

 

Anyway, I love my Bishop, love my ward, and love the gospel of Jesus Christ!!!  It was a good day at church for me

Edited May 3, 2015 by ALarson

[JulieM]

It sounds like you have an awesome ward and bishop (and stake president too). I hope this catches on across the church as I don't see this in my ward yet. I do hope the fifth Sunday messages will begin to center around the essays and issues surrounding them. Lucky you for being in the ward you're in. I'm a bit jealous! But it gives me hope to hear things like this.

Edited May 3, 2015 by JulieM

[Teancum]

Great! Just don't tell some here about this.......!

[JulieM]

Great! Just don't tell some here about this.......!

Really? Why? I would think the more who feel welcome at church the better. If we truly are the church of Jesus Christ, isn't that what He would want and the way He treat everyone?

Edited May 3, 2015 by JulieM

[The Nehor]

Great! Just don't tell some here about this.......!

 

Exactly, I am going to go find a church that treats heretics the way they deserve to be treated.

 

[Teancum]

Really? Why? I would think the more who feel welcome at church the better. If we truly are the church of Jesus Christ, isn't that what He would want and the way He treat everyone?

I was just kidding around.....

[Teancum]

Exactly, I am going to go find a church that treats heretics the way they deserve to be treated.

 

Pretty funny!

[JulieM]

I was just kidding around.....

Got it.

[Mystery Meat]

I definitely think we as members should do everything we can to make everyone feel welcome. We are all at different stages of faith. However, I think everyone needs to understand that the full blessings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are available to those who do accept and believe certain things. Attending the temple is a sacred experience. One that I want every one to experience. However, if you do not believe in the restoration of the Gospel, you don't qualify. I still want such a person to come to church with me on Sunday until they have such a testimony. But I don't think that person should be surprised, or angry, or whiney when/if they are deprived of going to the temple (even for a family occasion) because they do not qualify.

 

I think it is stupid I have to qualify with the above, but I do. Otherwise I think what your bishop and stake president are doing is great!

[readstoomuch]

In our testimony meeting several people including primary boy talked about doubt. The little boy said that believing doesn't come easy to him and he likes to find out for himself. He said he believes he is in the right place and with the right people. It was very sweet and it was better to be there and feel his sincerity.

Another brother who is struggling said that the Lord told him that "the Church was true, but not all of it." Then it was about 12 minutes of explaining what he meant. I (and my wife) could agree somewhat with what he said, but he went too far. I thought he was saying that Church history has not always been covered completely. My wife thought he meant history and doctrine.

There was actually a great spirit there and I felt like I should share Genesis 32 about Jacob wrestling with the Lord. I think our meeting reflected us individually wrestling with the Lord on these issues.

Edited May 4, 2015 by readstoomuch

[ALarson]

I definitely think we as members should do everything we can to make everyone feel welcome. We are all at different stages of faith. However, I think everyone needs to understand that the full blessings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are available to those who do accept and believe certain things. Attending the temple is a sacred experience. One that I want every one to experience. However, if you do not believe in the restoration of the Gospel, you don't qualify. I still want such a person to come to church with me on Sunday until they have such a testimony. But I don't think that person should be surprised, or angry, or whiney when/if they are deprived of going to the temple (even for a family occasion) because they do not qualify.

 

I think it is stupid I have to qualify with the above, but I do. Otherwise I think what your bishop and stake president are doing is great!

I agree that attending the temple is a sacred experience and I attend regularly.  It's something that is very important to my wife and I love the peace and quiet there.  I especially love sitting in the Celestial Room with her.

 

I've also attended each of my kid's temple weddings (those who are married) and I do understand the hurt that many feel when they aren't able to attend.

[ALarson]

In our testimony meeting several people including primary boy talked about doubt. The little boy said that believing doesn't come easy to him and he likes to find out for himself. He said he believes he is in the right place and with the right people. It was very sweet and it was better to be there and feel his sincerity.

Another brother who is struggling said that the Lord told him that "the Church was true, but not all of it." Then it was about 12 minutes of explaining what he meant. I (and my wife) could agree somewhat with what he said, but he went too far. I thought he was saying that Church history has not always been covered completely. My wife thought he meant history and doctrine.

There was actually a great spirit there and I felt like I should share Genesis 32 about Jacob wrestling with the Lord. I think our meeting reflected us individually wrestling with the Lord on these issues.

That's very cool and I love how people feel more comfortable opening up and expressing some of the real emotions they are feeling.  It's ok that everyone doesn't agree (they never have, but it's starting to be more out in the open now).  Hopefully the result of this is that members won't feel so alone who may be questioning and struggling and they'll continue attending.

[bluebell]

I agree that attending the temple is a sacred experience and I attend regularly. It's something that is very important to my wife and I love the peace and quiet there. I especially love sitting in the Celestial Room with her.

I've also attended each of my kid's temple weddings (those who are married) and I do understand the hurt that many feel when they aren't able to attend.

So you still sustain the prophet even though you don't believe in the Mormon church?

[ALarson]

So you still sustain the prophet even though you don't believe in the Mormon church?

Yes.  And when you say that I don't believe in "the Mormon church", that's not true.  It's not an "all or nothing".

 

I believe that the church does a great deal of good today and I also believe in many of their teachings.  I just don't believe it is the one and only "true" church.  There are many churches on earth that are based on the teachings of Jesus Christ (community churches and otherwise), but I'm a multi-generational Mormon (from both sides), my wife and many members of my family are active members.  I am Mormon.

 

What does it even mean when members say "I know this church is true"?  Yes, it contains truths, but many of the teachings even from past Prophets are not considered to be true.  I do have issues with many of the past teachings and practices, and I believe that past leaders have made mistakes.  That doesn't mean that I think they were bad men or that I "don't believe in the Mormon church".

[Senator]

Yes.  And when you say that I don't believe in "the Mormon church", that's not true.  It's not an "all or nothing".

 

I believe that the church does a great deal of good today and I also believe in many of their teachings.  I just don't believe it is the one and only "true" church. 

 

The second temple recommend question specifically addresses the "onlyness" claim. What is your understanding in that regard?

[stemelbow]

Sounds cool. But how did you get a speaker assigned on fast Sunday? My sacrament meeting included: A kid who was baptized the day before telling us he knows families are forever, his mom telling his us great her kid is, an older gentleman recounting his conversion story back when he was 28 and in the military, an old lady who gets up every month reporting to us the cool things she does and how her grandkids are doing, among plenty of others.

[ALarson]

The second temple recommend question specifically addresses the "onlyness" claim. What is your understanding in that regard?

My Bishop and I (and also my Stake President) have discussed all of the temple recommend questions and they believe I am fully temple worthy.  And yes (again), I do sustain President Monson.

[Storm Rider]

Somehow this idea that becoming a believer equates to somehow being better than nonbelievers.  It is as if as soon as we become a person of faith that we lose our humanity.  The Church has always been a congregation of sinners that also happens to believe in Jesus Christ as a Redeemer and Savior.  

 

This dissonance is carried by both those who are believers and those who are not.  Those who are believers are condemned for being judgmental and those who are not believers are viewed as unconcerned with eternal matters.  Obviously, I consider both positions to be wrong and miss the mark.  

 

What can I do about it?  I can always remember that I am a broken, imperfect man and that through Christ I am made whole and may join him as an heir and son of God.  In addition, I can withhold judgment of the actions of others and, specifically, view all others as fellow sons and daughters of God regardless of their own personal shortcomings and actions. 

Edited May 5, 2015 by Storm Rider

[ALarson]

Sounds cool. But how did you get a speaker assigned on fast Sunday? My sacrament meeting included: A kid who was baptized the day before telling us he knows families are forever, his mom telling his us great her kid is, an older gentleman recounting his conversion story back when he was 28 and in the military, an old lady who gets up every month reporting to us the cool things she does and how her grandkids are doing, among plenty of others.

We had fast Sunday on April 26th since it was our Ward Conference yesterday (and Stake Conference on the 19th).  This is to be the overall theme for every Ward Conference from our SP ("All Are Welcome Here").  I didn't stay for the other meetings, but I've now heard that they were excellent too (I do wish I'd stayed).  I'd also love to know how this theme is being discussed in other wards, but according to our Bishop, we're one of the first. 

 

Your description of testimonies at your meeting sounds interesting.  I happen to love fast & testimony meeting as some in our ward can be very entertaining.  You never know what you're going to get!!

Edited May 4, 2015 by ALarson

[Senator]

My Bishop and I (and also my Stake President) have discussed all of the temple recommend questions and they believe I am fully temple worthy.  And yes (again), I do sustain President Monson.

That's great, and I don't mean to make this personal. I have always been curious as to how individuals who claim to not believe this is only true church, square with the church's claim the president of the church is the only one to hold the keys of the priesthood and the exercise there of.

[ALarson]

Somehow this idea that being a believer equates to somehow being better than nonbelievers.  It is as if as soon as we become a person of faith that we are perceived to lose our humanity.  The Church has always been a congregation of sinners that also happen to believe in Jesus Christ as a Redeemer and Savior.  

 

This dissonance is carried by those who are believers and those who are not.  Those who are believers are condemned for being judgmental and those who are not believers are viewed as unconcerned with eternal matters.  Obviously, I consider both positions to be wrong and miss the mark.  

 

What can I do about it?  I can always remember that I am a broken, imperfect man and that through Christ I am made whole and join him as an heir and son of God.  In addition, I can withhold judgment of the actions of others and specifically them as fellow sons and daughters of God regardless of their own personal shortcomings and actions. 

Great post.

[bluebell]

Yes. And when you say that I don't believe in "the Mormon church", that's not true. It's not an "all or nothing".

I believe that the church does a great deal of good today and I also believe in many of their teachings. I just don't believe it is the one and only "true" church. There are many churches on earth that are based on the teachings of Jesus Christ (community churches and otherwise), but I'm a multi-generational Mormon (from both sides), my wife and many members of my family are active members. I am Mormon.

What does it even mean when members say "I know this church is true"? Yes, it contains truths, but many of the teachings even from past Prophets are not considered to be true. I do have issues with many of the past teachings and practices, and I believe that past leaders have made mistakes. That doesn't mean that I think they were bad men or that I "don't believe in the Mormon church".

Sorry, should have used your words and said since you don't literally believe in the Mormon church.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

That's great, and I don't mean to make this personal. I have always been curious as to how individuals who claim to not believe this is only true church, square with the church's claim the president of the church is the only one to hold the keys of the priesthood and the exercise there of.

 

I won't speak for ALarson but I can speak for myself as I've also had this discussion with my SP and he is comfortable with my level of belief.

"Do you sustain the President of the CoJCoLDS as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and as the only one who possesses and is authorized to exercize all priesthood keys."

We discussed this in terms of sustaining him a the President of an organization. As such, whether we call him prophet, seer, revelator, CEO, it is all simply a matter of title but it comes down to recognizing his authority to act on behalf of the church in any way he chooses. I don't have to agree with every decision the president makes or every action the church takes, but I recognize his authority to do it. Admittedly, this is very different than sustaining him as God's literal, 1 chosen mouthpiece holding the 1 priesthood etc, but it does acknowledge his authority to operate the priesthood organization within the church. In essence it recognizes his temporal authority to direct the affairs of the church. Whether or not that organization is an extension of God is a different question.

My SP was absolutely fine with this answer.

[ALarson]

Sorry, should have used your words and said since you don't literally believe in the Mormon church.

Hey, no problem.  I completely understand why you'd ask what you did.  

[Senator]

 

 

I won't speak for ALarson but I can speak for myself as I've also had this discussion with my SP and he is comfortable with my level of belief.

"Do you sustain the President of the CoJCoLDS as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and as the only one who possesses and is authorized to exercize all priesthood keys."

We discussed this in terms of sustaining him a the President of an organization. As such, whether we call him prophet, seer, revelator, CEO, it is all simply a matter of title but it comes down to recognizing his authority to act on behalf of the church in any way he chooses. I don't have to agree with every decision the president makes or every action the church takes, but I recognize his authority to do it. Admittedly, this is very different than sustaining him as God's literal, 1 chosen mouthpiece holding the 1 priesthood etc, but it does acknowledge his authority to operate the priesthood organization within the church. In essence it recognizes his temporal authority to direct the affairs of the church. Whether or not that organization is an extension of God is a different question.

My SP was absolutely fine with this answer.

So quite literally, if the Cathothic chuch asked the exact same questions, you would be justified in being a sustaining member of both?

 

This is confusing to me.