"room For All Levels Of Belief" Sacrament Meeting Talk

[Duncan]

Those are covered by that ever so nebulous last question.

 

well, hahahahhaha! it should be but do we actually do it is another matter

[Damien the Leper]

That would seem a little hard to defend.   And you are not universal in the LDS definition so neener neener

The LDS has never claimed to be catholic. Let alone one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

[Mystery Meat]

I find it interesting that the first three (if my numbering is correct ) uses the word "testimony". Come #4 it changes to the word "sustain" in regards to the presiding leadership of the church.

 

Do you feel that a "do you have a testimony of" is implied in Q4?

 

Yes. 

[Senator]

Yes. 

 

Do you think there is a reason for the abrupt change in wording?

 

Why not continue with the "do you have a testimony of" in addition to "do you sustain" inQ4?

[Mystery Meat]

Do you think there is a reason for the abrupt change in wording?

 

Why not continue with the "do you have a testimony of" in addition to "do you sustain" inQ4?

 

I have no idea. I am sure it can be interpreted as significant, I just don't see it that way. Perhaps the distinction is in the fact that we are asked to sustain the current prophet in our day. I also think sustaining implies testimony.

[Senator]

I have no idea. I am sure it can be interpreted as significant, I just don't see it that way. Perhaps the distinction is in the fact that we are asked to sustain the current prophet in our day. I also think sustaining implies testimony.

 

Hmm

 

I'm not sure it does.

[mfbukowski]

The LDS has never claimed to be catholic. Let alone one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

Sounds a bit circular to me, but I suppose it's not going to change. 

[mfbukowski]

I appreciate our temple rituals and glean much value from them, but I don’t see it as a strict requirement for salvation.  The endowment has gone through a vast evolution from early Mormonism and I anticipate that it will continue to evolve.

 

I’m pretty new to this board, but I have read through a few of your posts and found very thoughtful discussions taking place.  Would you care to elaborate on what you find unique about the Mormon endowment that is qualitatively superior to other religious practices?  

Well one could argue that ordinances only have "pragmatic" effect, in the sense that they only help us because we believe that they will.

 

That is actually superstition unless one has a reason to believe.  It's like diverting your path because a black cat just walked across it.  You believe that a bad thing will happen if you cross it's path.  That is similar to getting baptized because you think it is good luck to do so, or that you will get a blessing of some sort.

 

On the other hand, if one has a "testimony" of the "truth" of an ordinance (in other words, after prayer and contemplation, you have a spiritual experience of sufficient power to convince you that God has indeed led you to receive the ordinance) we have a whole different state of affairs.

 

Could that be an "illusion"?  That is what people argue in some circles, but obviously that idea is itself non-falsifiable.  No one can prove either way that such experiences are illusions or not,

 

So at the very least, now we have a "genuine" reason to believe that God has authorized the ordinance.  Again, it could be only a "pragmatic" reason- that it will help us because we think it will help us.   That's fine with me.   That is analogous to the so-called "placebo effect" which is just another name for an "unknown phenomenon" which for me could just as easily be called "God".

 

So the bottom line is at this point we have an individual who has a belief confirmed by an experience that the ordinance has positive effect.

 

Now to the endowment.

 

The endowment is essentially an ordinance that purports to give one the blessings necessary to achieve godhood perhaps thousands of years in the future after which time one has constantly striven for perfection in this life and the afterlife.

 

In direct answer to your question, no other denomination that I know of has such an ordinance or sacrament, so that makes us unique.   So one cannot compare the endowment to any other ordinance in any other denomination.   It is not like arguing over who's baptism is better.

 

So now you have an individual who has a spiritual confirmation that God wants him to receive this incredible blessing.  At the very least, such a belief and experience is life-changing, or at least it could be if one is a thinking individual who truly believes the implications found in the endowment.

 

That gives one an incredible sense of closeness with God that cannot be achieved anywhere else.  Even if one to insist that God does not exist, the "pragmatic effects" alone can be life changing.  Our minds create our realities.  Regardless of what "really happens" in the eternities, if such a phrase even has meaning, the pragmatic effect gives one a sense of peace and no fear of death.

 

It has the power to erase all the concerns of this life, all the trials, all the pain, all the usual .....stuff..... that happens in human life.  Placebo effect?  What does that mean?

 

It works, that is all that matters.   And that is one of the reasons I am Mormon.

 

Are they all the same?  Not if you don't believe they are.  And no one else has the audacity to even have an equivalent to the endowment.

Edited May 5, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Gray]

I never said they were. I offered as my opinion that they could be without conflicting with Joseph Smith's statement on creeds.

 

I also offer it as my opinion (and MINE only, therefore not binding on anyone) that many of the points I covered above are implied in the questions as they stand now.

 

Fair enough, thanks

[Garden Girl]

I don't get this fear at all. NOt a little bit, to be honest. Sorry to sound so dismissive, but help me understand.

If the doctrines need tweaking, amending, editing, in order to align our thinking more closely with God's, what's to fear? It might be good for us to be open enough to accept that we need more light and more light may come from outside--afterall God loves all and works with anyone potentially.

 

Hello stemelbow...

Not fear... I'm perfectly fine with more light and knowledge for the Church if it comes from the right source, from the FP and Qof12... not from some "outside" source... of course this is because I have a testimony of the Church as the restored gospel, and of our prophet who has the authority to "tweak, amend, or edit" according to revelation and inspiration... and the "keys" that he holds. Those that do not have this testimony will undoubtedly differ in this.  I do know that God loves all his children, and believe that there is much truth to be found in other faiths as long as they strive to follow the teachings of Christ...  but I'm trying to think of just what "outside" sources I would be open enough to receive "tweaking" from... Benny Hinn?  Jimmy Swaggert?  the Baptists?  the Methodists? 

I believe in and sustain our prophets, and the Church as the "complete" restored gospel, that will be given additional light and knowledge as God deems necessary...this of course is based on my own testimony...

 

GG

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Hello stemelbow...

Not fear... I'm perfectly fine with more light and knowledge for the Church if it comes from the right source, from the FP and Qof12... not from some "outside" source... of course this is because I have a testimony of the Church as the restored gospel, and of our prophet who has the authority to "tweak, amend, or edit" according to revelation and inspiration... and the "keys" that he holds. Those that do not have this testimony will undoubtedly differ in this.  I do know that God loves all his children, and believe that there is much truth to be found in other faiths as long as they strive to follow the teachings of Christ...  but I'm trying to think of just what "outside" sources I would be open enough to receive "tweaking" from... Benny Hinn?  Jimmy Swaggert?  the Baptists?  the Methodists? 

I believe in and sustain our prophets, and the Church as the "complete" restored gospel, that will be given additional light and knowledge as God deems necessary...this of course is based on my own testimony...

 

GG

Interesting perspective...

However, Joseph often received a precept upon precept moment when someone came into the church and shared some insight from the teachings of a previous organization they were involved in. He would pray about it and sometimes receive inspiration that it was correct or mostly correct that needed some tweaking. So I believe we can receive true, new knowledge apart from those who posses the "button".

Point being... it was a true principle even before Joseph got a hold of it.

Edited May 5, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[hope_for_things]

In direct answer to your question, no other denomination that I know of has such an ordinance or sacrament, so that makes us unique.   So one cannot compare the endowment to any other ordinance in any other denomination.   It is not like arguing over who's baptism is better.

This may be true, I’m not an expert on world religions.  But what about the endowment ordinance is so uniquely different, is it the promise of future God status?  I think you can find the principle of theosis in scripture and even in Joseph’s earlier teachings pre – endowment. 

 

The history of the endowment as I’ve researched was originally for the purpose of endowing missionaries with power to preach the gospel, not for the purpose of exalting humans to Godhood.  The earlier purpose of endowment got a bit jumbled up in Nauvoo with the doctrines of celestial marriage and sealing all getting mixed together.  

 

 

That gives one an incredible sense of closeness with God that cannot be achieved anywhere else.  Even if one to insist that God does not exist, the "pragmatic effects" alone can be life changing.  Our minds create our realities.  Regardless of what "really happens" in the eternities, if such a phrase even has meaning, the pragmatic effect gives one a sense of peace and no fear of death.

 

It has the power to erase all the concerns of this life, all the trials, all the pain, all the usual .....stuff..... that happens in human life.  Placebo effect?  What does that mean?

 

I think I’ve had a vastly different experience from my temple observations.  I don’t see how the endowment gives closeness to God that cannot be achieved anywhere else.  I have felt peace and comfort in the temple, but I have felt that in other places as well, and don’t think it’s fair to claim the Mormon temple ritual is better than other religious rites unless you’ve first experienced the rest and can compare, and I personally can’t make that claim. 

 

I also don’t think the endowment or our temple ordinances have ever had the effect on my life or the lives of those I observe around me of erasing concerns, trials, pains, etc.  Maybe I’m not understanding your comment here.  I believe the grace of God has the power to lighten our burdens, I have felt that in my life, but not tied to the endowment or the temple.  While I will say God has granted me grace on many occasions, I won’t characterize that as eliminating or erasing these issues, I don’t see that sentiment as a very Mormon doctrine.  

[JLHPROF]

 

 

This may be true, I’m not an expert on world religions.  But what about the endowment ordinance is so uniquely different, is it the promise of future God status? 

 

 

The priesthood authority used in administering it and the priesthood blessings received from it.

They are 100% unique to Mormonism.

 

But perhaps you mean necessary, not unique.

[stemelbow]

Hello stemelbow...

Not fear... I'm perfectly fine with more light and knowledge for the Church if it comes from the right source, from the FP and Qof12... not from some "outside" source... of course this is because I have a testimony of the Church as the restored gospel, and of our prophet who has the authority to "tweak, amend, or edit" according to revelation and inspiration... and the "keys" that he holds. Those that do not have this testimony will undoubtedly differ in this.  I do know that God loves all his children, and believe that there is much truth to be found in other faiths as long as they strive to follow the teachings of Christ...  but I'm trying to think of just what "outside" sources I would be open enough to receive "tweaking" from... Benny Hinn?  Jimmy Swaggert?  the Baptists?  the Methodists? 

I believe in and sustain our prophets, and the Church as the "complete" restored gospel, that will be given additional light and knowledge as God deems necessary...this of course is based on my own testimony...

 

GG

Thanks GardenGirl. I appreciate your answer. I suppose I think much like BookofMormonLuvr expressed above. I think it too presumptuous to think God will never use an outside source to bring truth to His Church. I give Him freedom to do it however He wishes. We'll get too stuck, insular, and stagnant if not...and perhaps we are already in that place.

[mfbukowski]

This may be true, I’m not an expert on world religions.  But what about the endowment ordinance is so uniquely different, is it the promise of future God status?  I think you can find the principle of theosis in scripture and even in Joseph’s earlier teachings pre – endowment. 

 

The history of the endowment as I’ve researched was originally for the purpose of endowing missionaries with power to preach the gospel, not for the purpose of exalting humans to Godhood.  The earlier purpose of endowment got a bit jumbled up in Nauvoo with the doctrines of celestial marriage and sealing all getting mixed together.  

 

 

I think I’ve had a vastly different experience from my temple observations.  I don’t see how the endowment gives closeness to God that cannot be achieved anywhere else.  I have felt peace and comfort in the temple, but I have felt that in other places as well, and don’t think it’s fair to claim the Mormon temple ritual is better than other religious rites unless you’ve first experienced the rest and can compare, and I personally can’t make that claim. 

 

I also don’t think the endowment or our temple ordinances have ever had the effect on my life or the lives of those I observe around me of erasing concerns, trials, pains, etc.  Maybe I’m not understanding your comment here.  I believe the grace of God has the power to lighten our burdens, I have felt that in my life, but not tied to the endowment or the temple.  While I will say God has granted me grace on many occasions, I won’t characterize that as eliminating or erasing these issues, I don’t see that sentiment as a very Mormon doctrine.

Ok, well there is not much more to say then is there? I like green you like purple. Nothing to talk about.  Have a nice day.

[Boanerges]

I find it interesting that the first three (if my numbering is correct ) uses the word "testimony". Come #4 it changes to the word "sustain" in regards to the presiding leadership of the church.

 

Do you feel that a "do you have a testimony of" is implied in Q4?

 

No, becauseof the way other questions are worded. They directly ask if you have a testimony of... and in questions one and two add "faith in" (1) and "role of" (2). As stated earlier, I believe these questions are very carefully crafted by the highest levels of authority in the church (they who hold all the keys and the one who can use them) and if they meant to ask "Do you have a testimony of the President of the church as prophet,seer, and revelator and do you sustain him....?" that's what they would ask. In other words, they could word the question any way they want to get the response they desire. They have worded this question without testimony being a part of it.

[Boanerges]

Interesting perspective...

However, Joseph often received a precept upon precept moment when someone came into the church and shared some insight from the teachings of a previous organization they were involved in. He would pray about it and sometimes receive inspiration that it was correct or mostly correct that needed some tweaking. So I believe we can receive true, new knowledge apart from those who posses the "button".

Point being... it was a true principle even before Joseph got a hold of it.

 

I agree with this. Joseph took truth from wherever he found it, and there's a quote somewhere about it that I don't have time to look uo at the moment. Joseph was a restorer of truth, but I also believe he was a gatherer of truth and not all of the restored truths came directly from heaven.

[Garden Girl]

Interesting perspective...

However, Joseph often received a precept upon precept moment when someone came into the church and shared some insight from the teachings of a previous organization they were involved in. He would pray about it and sometimes receive inspiration that it was correct or mostly correct that needed some tweaking. So I believe we can receive true, new knowledge apart from those who posses the "button".

Point being... it was a true principle even before Joseph got a hold of it.

 

Good day, BoML...

Here is the key... Joseph would pray about it and then go from there... Joseph indeed said there was truth to be found... as the prophet, he would seek inspiration and revelation in such cases... and speak for the Church.  He did not say that so-and-so said such-and-such and so we'll go with him... he prayed and sought understanding and inspiration or revelation...

 

GG

Edited May 5, 2015 by Garden Girl

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Good day, BoML...

Here is the key... Joseph would pray about it and then go from there... Joseph indeed said there was truth to be found... as the prophet, he would seek inspiration and revelation in such cases... and speak for the Church.  He did not say that so-and-so said such-and-such and so we'll go with him... he prayed and sought understanding and inspiration or revelation...

 

GG

And again, the principle was true BEFORE Joseph got a hold of it.

This attitude being adopted by yourself and several members here scares the heck out of me. Basically, you are advocating just keeping your mouths, and minds closed, and only pondering deeper things if given permission by the man with the "button"- and if anyone dares to, they are off the mark and not true Saints.

That is not any type of Mormonism Joseph would recognize. The Saints took great delight in pondering the mysteries of eternity, and proffering their ideas.

Edited May 5, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[hope_for_things]

The priesthood authority used in administering it and the priesthood blessings received from it.

They are 100% unique to Mormonism.

 

But perhaps you mean necessary, not unique.

 

Lots of denominations have a type of priesthood.  I guess you’re saying that Mormon priesthood is uniquely Mormon, and Catholic priesthood is uniquely Catholic.  Also it sounds like you’re saying Mormon blessings are uniquely Mormon.  I’m grateful for any blessings I receive, Mormon or otherwise. 

[hope_for_things]

It works, that is all that matters.   And that is one of the reasons I am Mormon.

 

I agree with this too, but it sounds like we approach it differently.  The temple does work for me, and I find a lot of beauty and value to it, I just don't like it when our culture tries to compare our temple experiences to other religions in an effort to say, mine is better than yours, or mine has God’s blessing and yours is something less important and less blessed by God.

 

I appreciate your comments, thanks for responding to my inquiry.  

[Mystery Meat]

And again, the principle was true BEFORE Joseph got a hold of it.

This attitude being adopted by yourself and several members here scares the heck out of me. Basically, you are advocating just keeping your mouths, and minds closed, and only pondering deeper things if given permission by the man with the "button"- and if anyone dares to, they are off the mark and not true Saints.

That is not any type of Mormonism Joseph would recognize. The Saints took great delight in pondering the mysteries of eternity, and proffering their ideas.

 

CFR that anyone is adopting the keep your mind and mouth shut attitude you claim.

[Mystery Meat]

 The Saints took great delight in pondering the mysteries of eternity, and proffering their ideas.

 

I don't disagree, but that does not mean they were all counted worthy NOT TO MENTION READY to enter the temple and enter into sacred covenants.

[Mystery Meat]

Lots of denominations have a type of priesthood.  I guess you’re saying that Mormon priesthood is uniquely Mormon, and Catholic priesthood is uniquely Catholic.  Also it sounds like you’re saying Mormon blessings are uniquely Mormon.  I’m grateful for any blessings I receive, Mormon or otherwise. 

 

No, what he is saying is that there is no other priesthood that is sanctioned by God or that carries with it the authority to act in his name other the priesthoods that are found in Mormonism.

[Mystery Meat]

We have really turned into a generation and a society of wussies.