"room For All Levels Of Belief" Sacrament Meeting Talk

[mfbukowski]

Sounds like I struck a nerve with that statement.  I’m new here, and you’re a seasoned member.  I meant no arrogance or disrespect with that statement.  I do try to understand the perspectives of others, and I was trying to acknowledge the validity of the other while also sharing my thoughts.  I meant no judgment about the other person’s ability to have nuanced or well thought out beliefs.  I guess I was simply trying to state that I can sympathize with this POV.

Never underestimate Calmoriah. She is a wellspring

of both knowledge and wisdom, and is a virtual encyclopedia of gospel knowledge.

[mfbukowski]

Why would I be indignant? I have been told that multiple times. That is my point. Why do people have such thin skin?

I find a hearty chuckle a good response to that one.

[mfbukowski]

Sounds like we're on the same page regarding rituals

Good. Read on.

[mfbukowski]

Good question, I’m thinking because it allows a person to focus on goals and desires.  It reminds us of our commitments and lets us think about our place in the eternal scheme of things.

Well I was puzzling over this for a while.  Rituals seldom remind me of goals and desires, or allow me to focus on them.  When I say the pledge of allegiance, a ritual, I have never thought of anything other than getting it over with, and wondering why I have to stand up and say it, especially at church.   I guess that goes back to us wanting to make it clear that we were good citizens even though we were thousands of miles from the United States, and for a time, breaking their laws.  But that is another discussion.

 

Clearly rituals have a social/ community function stating "we are all in this together" as you mention, more on that in a minute.

On the other hand, by re-stating the covenants we have made so long ago, upon thought, I can see how it would remind one of what I WANT to become and how far away I am from achieving that goal.   I find that part a little discomforting, actually.

I’m not too familiar with eastern religious practices of meditation, but I kind of think there is something meaningful about physically going through a ritual and how that centers a person’s mind and body.

Hmmmm- meh.

 

Having been both Catholic and Buddhist in the past, I don't know that I agree with you.   I practice meditation every day, and find it about as much a "ritual" as brushing my teeth, though of course that IS a ritual I suppose.  It's like taking your morning walk, just a necessity of life that one does along with prayer and a shower.   That does not mean of course that prayer OR meditation is not "meaningful"- the reason we do them is because they ARE.

 

The repetition itself is meaningful.   Consider that word "RE- PETITION" which, like prayer itself, makes the act a repeating process of petition to God or the universe, according to your beliefs.   Of course petitioning a non-personal universe only has meaning if one is communing with some vague "force" a la Star Wars, I suppose.

 

But meditation is not exactly "relaxing"- any more than walking a couple of miles is.  One has to concentrate and it is not always easy.  More precisely one has to concentrate every minute on NOT concentrating even though your mind is constantly coming up with distractions.  The leaf blower next door. Who's got the radio blasting?  My foot's falling asleep.   I forgot to get the milk.   Like exercise the peace and benefits come AFTER the effort.

 

My point is that effort is at the base of effective rituals, not sitting back and putting your mind on cruise control.   It is the INVOLVEMENT that makes them work, and the more important they are to you, the more you are involved.

 

Don't get me wrong- like everyone else, sometimes when I go to the temple, I am just not "there".   Hard day, not much sleep etc etc- snoozola time

 

But I enjoy the stimulation of contemplating all the layers of symbolism and seeing where they lead my mind.  I strive to be involved in every step.   I nearly have the endowment memorized now and I find that very beneficial, because I can just do it in my mind- go through all those amazing ordinances that clearly come straight from God- no man could ever have thought that stuff up.

 

And as I have said from the start, I don't see how you could possibly think that any other church has anything like it.   We clearly take upon ourselves different levels of consciousness as we progress through the levels of the plan of salvation, culminating in "theosis" or exaltation.

 

I did a lot of study in philosophy before I found this church, and I joined it not because it was like all the others, but because it was TOTALLY DIFFERENT than the others.  TOTALLY DIFFERENT.   No one believes God is a Man.  No one believes that Christ is our brother.  No one believes that we share divine nature with God in the same way HE has divine nature.   No one believes that Christ visited anyone except those in Jerusalem and environs.  No one believes we can become like God Himself!!  No one believes we have a Heavenly Mother who is God's partner.  No one believes that God resides in a family structure just as we do, and is a social being who is our "friend".

 

I believed every one of these points before I even found Mormonism, as well as that fact that I had lived before coming to this earth.  I had had experiences indicating to me that that was the case.   Then HERE IT WAS ALL IN ONE PLACE and that was also confirmed itself by an incredible spiritual experience that confirmed to my spirit that indeed God wanted me here.

 

He didn't want me to be a Buddhist, or a Catholic, or a Presbyterian or a Zoroastrian.  He wanted me to be a Mormon!   When that happens, one cannot say that "we are just like everyone else".   I have direct personal evidence that that is not the case- because He told me.

 

I also think there is a group and community element to these ordinances, commitments to others providing a sense of belonging.

No question at all- that is one of the most powerful features of rituals and ordinances.  It is a part of a socially created reality in which we all live as LDS.

 

But unless you were born a member, and just go to church because your mommy and daddy told you to, and you go because you are Fifth Generation Mormon and flip out on pioneer day because you hear stories about your ancestors, unless all that, YOU JOINED BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO.  YOU PICKED THIS COMMUNITY FOR A REASON.  Hopefully we are all "converts" in that each has their own testimony and are members because the actually BELIEVE they should be here.

 

Obviously, that is not the case.

 

So it is not just a "sense of belonging".   It is not like Cheers where "everybody knows your name" so you end up on the same barstool or pew every week.

 

We SHOULD be here because we are COMMITTED TO A CAUSE we chose to join, even if we were born in the church.  That's one more way we are different!

 

And the REASON we are committed is because we each have a "testimony" meaning that God has told us individually that this is where he wants us.

 

So how are we different from the JW's or other committed groups, who have a "testimony"?  How are we different than "save the whales" or PETA?

 

From the perspective of others, perhaps they just don't see it, but from my perspective I do.  For me, this church gives me a perspective on my life and my future that I have never even thought possible.   It is all here- I don't need anything more.

 

It is like the theory of evolution or quantum theory.  It may not be the absolute perfect rendition of the way things "really are"- but guess what- NOTHING is!

 

It is the BEST possible explanation which fits perfectly with all my experiences- spiritual and otherwise.  It explains "all the data" I have in the most perfect way.

 

This is why I can say "I know the church is true" while not even knowing what "true" means because for me it means "I know this is the best possible explanation that I can find for why I am here and where I am going"  after a LOT of study.   That's the best any of us can do.  And I believe that God has confirmed that to me.

 

God can bless me without the ritual, I agree. I can’t make a definitive case that ritual is absolutely necessary, but I do find value in ritual and its part of my tradition. I enjoy the temple for how it gets me out of my every day worries and gets me to contemplate eternity. I also enjoy the connection I feel with my ancestors and the human family.

Not bad. 

 

 

Actually, yes, that’s a start. 

Right back at you.

 

But it IS absolutely necessary for most of us because we know it is.

Edited May 7, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

Well I was puzzling over this for a while. Rituals seldom remind me of goals and desires, or allow me to focus on them. When I say the pledge of allegiance, a ritual, I have never thought of anything other than getting it over with, and wondering why I have to stand up and say it, especially at church. I guess that goes back to us wanting to make it clear that we were good citizens even though we were thousands of miles from the United States, and for a time, breaking their laws. But that is another discussion.

Clearly rituals have a social/ community function stating "we are all in this together" as you mention, more on that in a minute.

On the other hand, by re-stating the covenants we have made so long ago, upon thought, I can see how it would remind one of what I WANT to become and how far away I am from achieving that goal. I find that part a little discomforting, actually.

Hmmmm- meh.

Having been both Catholic and Buddhist in the past, I don't know that I agree with you. I practice meditation every day, and find it about as much a "ritual" as brushing my teeth, though of course that IS a ritual I suppose. It's like taking your morning walk, just a necessity of life that one does along with prayer and a shower. That does not mean of course that prayer OR meditation is not "meaningful"- the reason we do them is because they ARE.

The repetition itself is meaningful. Consider that word "RE- PETITION" which, like prayer itself, makes the act a repeating process of petition to God or the universe, according to your beliefs. Of course petitioning a non-personal universe only has meaning if one is communing with some vague "force" a la Star Wars, I suppose.

But meditation is not exactly "relaxing"- any more than walking a couple of miles is. One has to concentrate and it is not always easy. More precisely one has to concentrate every minute on NOT concentrating even though your mind is constantly coming up with distractions. The leaf blower next door. Who's got the radio blasting? My foot's falling asleep. I forgot to get the milk. Like exercise the peace and benefits come AFTER the effort.

My point is that effort is at the base of effective rituals, not sitting back and putting your mind on cruise control. It is the INVOLVEMENT that makes them work, and the more important they are to you, the more you are involved.

Don't get me wrong- like everyone else, sometimes when I go to the temple, I am just not "there". Hard day, not much sleep etc etc- snoozola time

But I enjoy the stimulation of contemplating all the layers of symbolism and seeing where they lead my mind. I strive to be involved in every step. I nearly have the endowment memorized now and I find that very beneficial, because I can just do it in my mind- go through all those amazing ordinances that clearly come straight from God- no man could ever have thought that stuff up.

And as I have said from the start, I don't see how you could possibly think that any other church has anything like it. We clearly take upon ourselves different levels of consciousness as we progress through the levels of the plan of salvation, culminating in "theosis" or exaltation.

I did a lot of study in philosophy before I found this church, and I joined it not because it was like all the others, but because it was TOTALLY DIFFERENT than the others. TOTALLY DIFFERENT. No one believes God is a Man. No one believes that Christ is our brother. No one believes that we share divine nature with God in the same way HE has divine nature. No one believes that Christ visited anyone except those in Jerusalem and environs. No one believes we can become like God Himself!! No one believes we have a Heavenly Mother who is God's partner. No one believes that God resides in a family structure just as we do, and is a social being who is our "friend".

I believed every one of these points before I even found Mormonism, as well as that fact that I had lived before coming to this earth. I had had experiences indicating to me that that was the case. Then HERE IT WAS ALL IN ONE PLACE and that was also confirmed itself by an incredible spiritual experience that confirmed to my spirit that indeed God wanted me here.

He didn't want me to be a Buddhist, or a Catholic, or a Presbyterian or a Zoroastrian. He wanted me to be a Mormon! When that happens, one cannot say that "we are just like everyone else". I have direct personal evidence that that is not the case- because He told me.

No question at all- that is one of the most powerful features of rituals and ordinances. It is a part of a socially created reality in which we all live as LDS.

But unless you were born a member, and just go to church because your mommy and daddy told you to, and you go because you are Fifth Generation Mormon and flip out on pioneer day because you hear stories about your ancestors, unless all that, YOU JOINED BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO. YOU PICKED THIS COMMUNITY FOR A REASON. Hopefully we are all "converts" in that each has their own testimony and are members because the actually BELIEVE they should be here.

Obviously, that is not the case.

So it is not just a "sense of belonging". It is not like Cheers where "everybody knows your name" so you end up on the same barstool or pew every week.

We SHOULD be here because we are COMMITTED TO A CAUSE we chose to join, even if we were born in the church. That's one more way we are different!

And the REASON we are committed is because we each have a "testimony" meaning that God has told us individually that this is where he wants us.

So how are we different from the JW's or other committed groups, who have a "testimony"? How are we different than "save the whales" or PETA?

From the perspective of others, perhaps they just don't see it, but from my perspective I do. For me, this church gives me a perspective on my life and my future that I have never even thought possible. It is all here- I don't need anything more.

It is like the theory of evolution or quantum theory. It may not be the absolute perfect rendition of the way things "really are"- but guess what- NOTHING is!

It is the BEST possible explanation which fits perfectly with all my experiences- spiritual and otherwise. It explains "all the data" I have in the most perfect way.

This is why I can say "I know the church is true" while not even knowing what "true" means because for me it means "I know this is the best possible explanation that I can find for why I am here and where I am going" after a LOT of study. That's the best any of us can do. And I believe that God has confirmed that to me.

Not bad.

Right back at you.

But it IS absolutely necessary for most of us because we know it is.

Nice post MF. I guess that's why many times I was struck with how strong a converts testimony seemed. And converts were looked up to as someone to spotlight etc. Have them share their story etc. I've often heard them say how the minute they heard the LDS gospel and it's unique doctrine they knew it was true. Or the meat. But that meat is maybe what Satan wanted us to believe. ..that we'll be Gods...and Eve partook. Non LDS Christians believe that Eve was wrong to partake, we weren't suppose to try to be Gods. Satan deceived Eve supposedly. So who's right Satan or God? Why is He so important in the temple movie? Why are we wearing an apron like he wears? Why is the ceremony so much like Masonry? It wouldn't be difficult to tweak it, a man can do that. It's main purpose is to better one self, and to many in Masonry, a secret society that tries to attain Godhood. Something blasphemous to the rest of Christendom. Where in the bible does it say those specific words? It never does. Mormonism tweaks it to mean that. This is where I am stuck. I'm stuck in that I don't want to be Eve and be deceived. Yet in our church she did exactly what God wanted her to do but told her not to. That is messed up in my mind. I want to think the church is true. But then I see how that contradicts the rest of Christian belief...I'm left to wonder who's right? I wish He would help me out, help me to decide once and for all. Maybe one day, and hopefully I won't end up in the looney bin still in limbo land.

[teddyaware]

Nice post MF. I guess that's why many times I was struck with how strong a converts testimony seemed. And converts were looked up to as someone to spotlight etc. Have them share their story etc. I've often heard them say how the minute they heard the LDS gospel and it's unique doctrine they knew it was true. Or the meat. But that meat is maybe what Satan wanted us to believe. ..that we'll be Gods...and Eve partook. Non LDS Christians believe that Eve was wrong to partake, we weren't suppose to try to be Gods. Satan deceived Eve supposedly. So who's right Satan or God? Why is He so important in the temple movie? Why are we wearing an apron like he wears? Why is the ceremony so much like Masonry? It wouldn't be difficult to tweak it, a man can do that. It's main purpose is to better one self, and to many in Masonry, a secret society that tries to attain Godhood. Something blasphemous to the rest of Christendom. Where in the bible does it say those specific words? It never does. Mormonism tweaks it to mean that. This is where I am stuck. I'm stuck in that I don't want to be Eve and be deceived. Yet in our church she did exactly what God wanted her to do but told her not to. That is messed up in my mind. I want to think the church is true. But then I see how that contradicts the rest of Christian belief...I'm left to wonder who's right? I wish He would help me out, help me to decide once and for all. Maybe one day, and hopefully I won't end up in the looney bin still in limbo land.

 

The Bible is so full of scriptures that teach men can become like God that even some non-LDS denominations (the Orthodox Church, for instance) believe in the doctrine of "theosis" (men becoming like God by inheriting through Christ ALL that the Father possesses) is taught in the Bible. As far as the fall is concerned, does it really make any sense that an all-knowing and all-wise God, who knows the end from the beginning, would allow things to get so out of control in Eden that a tragic accident took place that produced the fall if the fall wasn't His design and plan in the first place? The New Testament teaches us that Christ was the 'Lamb of God who was SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.' That means God knew the fall was going to take place even before the earth was created, and it is for that reason He foreordained the Savior to redeem men from a fall that He perfectly well knew was going to occur. Or would you rather believe God bungles around in a haphazard fashion?

 

I'm truly sorry to see you floundering in so much confusion. Revelation is the only answer.

Edited May 7, 2015 by teddyaware

[Sanpitch]

"Revelation is the only answer."  And where does someone get reliable revelation?

[Mystery Meat]

"Revelation is the only answer."  And where does someone get reliable revelation?

 

God.

[Tacenda]

I hope more stakes provide this!  It would have been nice to have had my bishop turned stake president, give me this link instead of the cold shoulder when I emailed him and turned down a calling because of my findings on Joseph Smith's polygamy and struggling to believe afterwards.  But I got absolutely nothing from him.  Nothing.  Oh, I got a reply like this.  "I got your email" that's it.  I've been hanging ever since.  The most he said is something about my son in church basketball.  He was/is into sports.  And our boys played on some teams together.  It's like some leaders are not able to relate that this can happen to a person or something.  Why the silence?  

 

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6557&sid=eb95fdfb169c4d6ff82a6635317dab76

[ALarson]

I hope more stakes provide this!  It would have been nice to have had my bishop turned stake president, give me this link instead of the cold shoulder when I emailed him and turned down a calling because of my findings on Joseph Smith's polygamy and struggling to believe afterwards.  But I got absolutely nothing from him.  Nothing.  Oh, I got a reply like this.  "I got your email" that's it.  I've been hanging ever since.  The most he said is something about my son in church basketball.  He was/is into sports.  And our boys played on some teams together.  It's like some leaders are not able to relate that this can happen to a person or something.  Why the silence?  

 

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6557&sid=eb95fdfb169c4d6ff82a6635317dab76

I wish you lived in our stake, Tacenda (and in my ward as I think we'd be good friends ).  When was the last time you tried to talk to your Bishop about some of the issues that are now covered in the essays?  Have you asked him if he's read them and if the two of you can discuss them (specifically the ones on polygamy)?  I see you now have a different Bishop, so maybe try again!

 

I do think that the essays will gradually get out there and more wards & stakes will realize it's important to discuss them in the right setting.

[Tacenda]

I wish you lived in our stake, Tacenda (and in my ward as I think we'd be good friends ).  When was the last time you tried to talk to your Bishop about some of the issues that are now covered in the essays?  Have you asked him if he's read them and if the two of you can discuss them (specifically the ones on polygamy)?  I see you now have a different Bishop, so maybe try again!

 

I do think that the essays will gradually get out there and more wards & stakes will realize it's important to discuss them in the right setting.

I've wanted to for so long.  In all my years as a LDS I've never gone to the bishop with any concerns, call me miss independent, well in person, not on these boards, lol.  I'm tempted to call my bishop and home teacher!  Yep, we must be on the radar if he's our bishop and home teacher!  I'll consider it and possibly share the info & this letter to the SP.  But it's terribly difficult sometimes when you don't want to disappoint.     

[Sanpitch]

God.

[Sanpitch]

If it's that simple, why are there so much confusion about doctrine and beliefs?  I've gone to LDStalk and other boards for a couple of decades and the same issues are argued and discussed with no solid answers and nothing has changed. 

 

I have JWs in the family and if there's a question about doctrine or beliefs they will find the answer in the Bible.  Whether they're are wrong or not is beside the point, they can answer the question and every JW on Earth has the same answer generally.

[mfbukowski]

The Bible is so full of scriptures that teach men can become like God that even some non-LDS denominations (the Orthodox Church, for instance) believe in the doctrine of "theosis" (men becoming like God by inheriting through Christ ALL that the Father possesses) is taught in the Bible. As far as the fall is concerned, does it really make any sense that an all-knowing and all-wise God, who knows the end from the beginning, would allow things to get so out of control in Eden that a tragic accident took place that produced the fall if the fall wasn't His design and plan in the first place? The New Testament teaches us that Christ was the 'Lamb of God who was SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.' That means God knew the fall was going to take place even before the earth was created, and it is for that reason He foreordained the Savior to redeem men from a fall that He perfectly well knew was going to occur. Or would you rather believe God bungles around in a haphazard fashion?

 

I'm truly sorry to see you floundering in so much confusion. Revelation is the only answer.

And that's another one for my list of what makes us unique- we believe that the fall was actually necessary for the progression of mankind.

Mom and dad have to kick the kids out eventually so they can grow. I think we all understand that principle without making a theological conundrum out of something that is common sense. The chick has to peck its way out of the shell to develop enough strength to survive on its own- "help" the chick by breaking the shell and it dies!

I love this church!

[mfbukowski]

"Revelation is the only answer."  And where does someone get reliable revelation?

The only way you can possibly know anything is reliable is by personal revelation to your heart. Everything else is just someone telling you something.

THAT is where the confusion enters. Who to believe? Why believe the bible since it's only old legends? Why believe the BOM because Joseph dreamed it all up? Why believe what some old guys in Salt Lake say when they all conflict?

The only place you can get reliable revelation is inside yourself to know what path to take.

That necessitates the possibility that you will get a revelation differing from what someone else says. Oh well. God teaches us each individually and tells us what we individually need to do to grow closer to Him.

So get your own revelation and stick with it. That's the only thing you can trust anyway. "Go with your gut" or you will go with someone else's gut. Definitely a yucky idea !

[bluebell]

I've wanted to for so long.  In all my years as a LDS I've never gone to the bishop with any concerns, call me miss independent, well in person, not on these boards, lol.  I'm tempted to call my bishop and home teacher!  Yep, we must be on the radar if he's our bishop and home teacher!  I'll consider it and possibly share the info & this letter to the SP.  But it's terribly difficult sometimes when you don't want to disappoint.     

 

I think you definitely should go see your bishop Tacenda.  Why did you write to your stake president but not share your concerns with your bishop first?

[mfbukowski]

Nice post MF. I guess that's why many times I was struck with how strong a converts testimony seemed. And converts were looked up to as someone to spotlight etc. Have them share their story etc. I've often heard them say how the minute they heard the LDS gospel and it's unique doctrine they knew it was true. Or the meat. But that meat is maybe what Satan wanted us to believe. ..that we'll be Gods...and Eve partook. Non LDS Christians believe that Eve was wrong to partake, we weren't suppose to try to be Gods. Satan deceived Eve supposedly. So who's right Satan or God? Why is He so important in the temple movie? Why are we wearing an apron like he wears? Why is the ceremony so much like Masonry? It wouldn't be difficult to tweak it, a man can do that. It's main purpose is to better one self, and to many in Masonry, a secret society that tries to attain Godhood. Something blasphemous to the rest of Christendom. Where in the bible does it say those specific words? It never does. Mormonism tweaks it to mean that. This is where I am stuck. I'm stuck in that I don't want to be Eve and be deceived. Yet in our church she did exactly what God wanted her to do but told her not to. That is messed up in my mind. I want to think the church is true. But then I see how that contradicts the rest of Christian belief...I'm left to wonder who's right? I wish He would help me out, help me to decide once and for all. Maybe one day, and hopefully I won't end up in the looney bin still in limbo land.

Hi Tacenda

I know that I have not always been very gentle with you, not because I don't like you or sympathize with your position, but because I have thought that was what you needed. I know it is presumptuous to even think that way, that somehow I might help, but here I am, guilty as charged!

 

You have to understand that we live in a soup.  We are all just potatoes in this giant pot of stew, and meat and carrots and gravy and spices, all cooking on the stove.  And the flavors from the carrots get into us, and we bump into the meat that kind of abrades our skin, but those carrots give us some sweetness.  And the salt burns a bit, but helps us get better flavor.   Sometimes we are on top of the pot and can see the light, but mostly we are down there not even knowing which way is up or down.

 

You can't believe the Bible because it seems to be all old legends, and the Bom- well who knows about that.

 

The peas in the stew push us one way, and the steam bubbles push us another, and those dang meat pieces think they own the place.  All I know is that it's pretty hard to get out of the pot, and then when you do, someone eats you and it's all over.

 

Happy yet? 

 

But there is a way out of the pot without getting eaten!   Uh, at this point the silly analogy ends because I am not talented enough to carry it on!

 

The bottom line is that we are all in a stew of ideas and they are inescapable.  They permeate us.  The messages are like the radio waves from every source in the world that are constantly passing through us.

 

But at some point we have to stand up and be what Jewish people call a "Mensch" which is literally translated as "a person" but means much more.  It is a person who stands up for their beliefs because they HAVE beliefs.  They have taken in all the chaos around them and looked it all over and said to themselves, "I think THIS is right"

 

Then for us, we pray about it.  We have studied it out in our minds and have discovered that THAT DOES NOT HELP.  All that study does is bring in more gravy and peas into the equation.  There is no end of it. 

 

You can doubt anything, anytime.   I know because I have, and do, doubt everything everyone takes for granted.   Do I know that the sun is REALLY shining ?

What if I am just dreaming it?     Honestly those are the kinds of silly things I worry about.  I have spent most of my life worrying about those kind of silly things and answering, intellectually, every stupid question I could dream up!

 

But guess what?  It didn't do any good!!   All there are is questions and questions and

How do I get out of this soup?

 

The only answer is to "let go and let God" answer the questions for you!.   Drop it all in His lap in sincere prayer.   Turn off all the voices, doubting AND "believing", get on your knees and tell him that you are desperate and really want to know.!!

 

You can't expect perfection from human beings -- just from God.

 

Any church has problems.  Martin Luther told his followers to "Sin boldly!"  Popes sold indulgences - free cards into heaven.  Christianity doesn't make sense- three Gods in one?  What does that mean?  Mormonism has all these weird beliefs- what do I do??

 

So you pray about it.

 

But wait a minute.   What if there is no God?  Why should I even pray to ..... WHAT??

 

In that case don't call it "praying".   Get down on your knees and ask the deepest part of yourself deep within you, what you are doing here in this crazy life.  Talk to the universe, talk to whatever you want- talk to YOURSELF if that's all that you can find down there.

 

If you do that, earnestly, I know you will find whatever there is down there or up there and It will speak to you.  You will feel an intelligence speaking back.  Maybe it is just you telling yourself what you need.   If that belief works for you, that is better than not having anything.

 

In my life I call that "God", because I have found that It responds to me and tells me what is important.  The Intelligence Out There Or In Here    guides my life.

 

I am now longer a potato in the stew, I am a Mensch.  I am a human being who has constructed my world from the chaotic stew in which we all live.

 

Now I can find those existing theories that put it all together, and I can add some of my own to those theories.  The theory which works the best overall for me is called "Mormonism" and the Intelligence Out There or In Here has told me it is the path I must follow to be happy in life.

 

But your intelligence might tell you something else.   That's ok- I suspect the Intelligence is intelligent enough to know what you need.

 

But you gotta do it.

 

You can't keep getting knocked around by peas and carrots and rubbing against the side of the pot.   That is a miserable way to live- I know!

[Tacenda]

I think you definitely should go see your bishop Tacenda. Why did you write to your stake president but not share your concerns with your bishop first?

He was my bishop first.

[hope_for_things]

 

The repetition itself is meaningful.   Consider that word "RE- PETITION" which, like prayer itself, makes the act a repeating process of petition to God or the universe, according to your beliefs.   

 

My point is that effort is at the base of effective rituals, not sitting back and putting your mind on cruise control.   It is the INVOLVEMENT that makes them work, and the more important they are to you, the more you are involved.

 

I love the use of the word RE-PETITION, very cool insight, I think I’ll steal that one.  :-)

 

And as I have said from the start, I don't see how you could possibly think that any other church has anything like it.   We clearly take upon ourselves different levels of consciousness as we progress through the levels of the plan of salvation, culminating in "theosis" or exaltation.

 

I did a lot of study in philosophy before I found this church, and I joined it not because it was like all the others, but because it was TOTALLY DIFFERENT than the others.  TOTALLY DIFFERENT.   No one believes God is a Man.  No one believes that Christ is our brother.  No one believes that we share divine nature with God in the same way HE has divine nature.   No one believes that Christ visited anyone except those in Jerusalem and environs.  No one believes we can become like God Himself!!  No one believes we have a Heavenly Mother who is God's partner.  No one believes that God resides in a family structure just as we do, and is a social being who is our "friend".

 

While I can totally affirm and validate your experience, what I personally still don’t feel comfortable doing is universalizing your experience.  I see the pain this causes those outside our group.  How can we find value and beauty and even salvation within Mormonism, without applying these virtues universally.  I think many people can find what you’ve found in Mormonism, but I don’t see taking this paradigm and applying it to everyone else as productive or fair.  I’m not saying that you are doing this applying of your views on everyone else per say, but many others do, and the one and only true church line becomes a weapon wielded against other beliefs and used to justify very poor behavior.

 

I’ve always identified as a Switzerland kind of personality.  I can remember multiple times in my childhood where I was the mediator in the fight with my friends or my siblings.  I was the person that tried to empathize with both sides and bring them together.  This is something engrained in me since an early age.  I’m sensitive to the other and their plight.  I don’t like divisive language and behavior. 

 

I am a member of this church, not because I believe it contains all truth, no church can, and God doesn’t work like that with humans.  I stay a member for many complex reasons, but I had to decide at one point whether this church with all the negative baggage, could still connect me with the divine.  I don’t believe it is the only church that could provide this service, there are many others that could as well, but the fact that this church does for me what I need in order to keep progressing and learning and growing as an individual, it satisfies this primary need that I have for the growth of my soul, and for that I am grateful and indebted and committed.  There is a lot of learning and growth needed for our community and I want to be part of that in my own little way. 

 

Also, I loved the insight into your conversion, thanks again for sharing that.  

[mfbukowski]

I love the use of the word RE-PETITION, very cool insight, I think I’ll steal that one.  :-)

 

 

While I can totally affirm and validate your experience, what I personally still don’t feel comfortable doing is universalizing your experience.  I see the pain this causes those outside our group.  How can we find value and beauty and even salvation within Mormonism, without applying these virtues universally.  I think many people can find what you’ve found in Mormonism, but I don’t see taking this paradigm and applying it to everyone else as productive or fair.  I’m not saying that you are doing this applying of your views on everyone else per say, but many others do, and the one and only true church line becomes a weapon wielded against other beliefs and used to justify very poor behavior.

 

I’ve always identified as a Switzerland kind of personality.  I can remember multiple times in my childhood where I was the mediator in the fight with my friends or my siblings.  I was the person that tried to empathize with both sides and bring them together.  This is something engrained in me since an early age.  I’m sensitive to the other and their plight.  I don’t like divisive language and behavior. 

 

I am a member of this church, not because I believe it contains all truth, no church can, and God doesn’t work like that with humans.  I stay a member for many complex reasons, but I had to decide at one point whether this church with all the negative baggage, could still connect me with the divine.  I don’t believe it is the only church that could provide this service, there are many others that could as well, but the fact that this church does for me what I need in order to keep progressing and learning and growing as an individual, it satisfies this primary need that I have for the growth of my soul, and for that I am grateful and indebted and committed.  There is a lot of learning and growth needed for our community and I want to be part of that in my own little way. 

 

Also, I loved the insight into your conversion, thanks again for sharing that.  

Well thanks for the thanks

 

I was not universalizing anything.

 

There is no such thing as an objective measure for "authority"- no little electric gizmo anyone has that you plug in and it says - OH- THIS church has "authority" but that one does not- look- you can see it right here!"

 

That means that our personal BELIEF in the authority of a church is what causes it to HAVE authority in our lives.

 

You don't realize it, but you have voluntarily accepted the "authority" of this church by attending- you have sustained that authority with your feet.  For whatever reason, tradition or because someone told you to do so- or because you have a testimony, you make a choice to attend this church and not that one.

 

THAT is authority.  If you felt that other churches were "just as good" REALLY you would attend the Baptists on one week and the Catholics the next, the Buddhists the next etc ad infinitum, all looking for that ineffable wisdom found in "all churches"

 

In constructing our individual worlds (also why I am Mormon- we all are godlets organizing worlds even today on this board) we create (give by voting with our feet) authority in our own "church" by believing its tenets, our tenets that we have found which work for us ("truth)

 

I happen to believe that if everyone saw this church the way I do, everyone in the world would believe as I believe.

 

But I am not crazy, I just think I am right and so does everyone else.   So no, I am not universalizing.  Find your own "one true church" and sustain its authority with your feet.

 

But go because YOU think it's "right", not because it's your "tradition" and your "community" that you were born into and which you have never questioned.  "An unexamined life is not worth living"- Socrates

 

Without believing you are "right" you have nothing but Namby pamby vanilla and white rice every day.  You accept everything and nothing, and stand for everything and nothing.

 

I am not saying YOU personally do that- I can tell that of course you are a very intelligent person.  But that is my view of authority.

[Tacenda]

 

Hi Tacenda

I know that I have not always been very gentle with you, not because I don't like you or sympathize with your position, but because I have thought that was what you needed. I know it is presumptuous to even think that way, that somehow I might help, but here I am, guilty as charged!

 

You have to understand that we live in a soup.  We are all just potatoes in this giant pot of stew, and meat and carrots and gravy and spices, all cooking on the stove.  And the flavors from the carrots get into us, and we bump into the meat that kind of abrades our skin, but those carrots give us some sweetness.  And the salt burns a bit, but helps us get better flavor.   Sometimes we are on top of the pot and can see the light, but mostly we are down there not even knowing which way is up or down.

 

You can't believe the Bible because it seems to be all old legends, and the Bom- well who knows about that.

 

The peas in the stew push us one way, and the steam bubbles push us another, and those dang meat pieces think they own the place.  All I know is that it's pretty hard to get out of the pot, and then when you do, someone eats you and it's all over.

 

Happy yet? 

 

But there is a way out of the pot without getting eaten!   Uh, at this point the silly analogy ends because I am not talented enough to carry it on!

 

The bottom line is that we are all in a stew of ideas and they are inescapable.  They permeate us.  The messages are like the radio waves from every source in the world that are constantly passing through us.

 

But at some point we have to stand up and be what Jewish people call a "Mensch" which is literally translated as "a person" but means much more.  It is a person who stands up for their beliefs because they HAVE beliefs.  They have taken in all the chaos around them and looked it all over and said to themselves, "I think THIS is right"

 

Then for us, we pray about it.  We have studied it out in our minds and have discovered that THAT DOES NOT HELP.  All that study does is bring in more gravy and peas into the equation.  There is no end of it. 

 

You can doubt anything, anytime.   I know because I have, and do, doubt everything everyone takes for granted.   Do I know that the sun is REALLY shining ?

What if I am just dreaming it?     Honestly those are the kinds of silly things I worry about.  I have spent most of my life worrying about those kind of silly things and answering, intellectually, every stupid question I could dream up!

 

But guess what?  It didn't do any good!!   All there are is questions and questions and

How do I get out of this soup?

 

The only answer is to "let go and let God" answer the questions for you!.   Drop it all in His lap in sincere prayer.   Turn off all the voices, doubting AND "believing", get on your knees and tell him that you are desperate and really want to know.!!

 

You can't expect perfection from human beings -- just from God.

 

Any church has problems.  Martin Luther told his followers to "Sin boldly!"  Popes sold indulgences - free cards into heaven.  Christianity doesn't make sense- three Gods in one?  What does that mean?  Mormonism has all these weird beliefs- what do I do??

 

So you pray about it.

 

But wait a minute.   What if there is no God?  Why should I even pray to ..... WHAT??

 

In that case don't call it "praying".   Get down on your knees and ask the deepest part of yourself deep within you, what you are doing here in this crazy life.  Talk to the universe, talk to whatever you want- talk to YOURSELF if that's all that you can find down there.

 

If you do that, earnestly, I know you will find whatever there is down there or up there and It will speak to you.  You will feel an intelligence speaking back.  Maybe it is just you telling yourself what you need.   If that belief works for you, that is better than not having anything.

 

In my life I call that "God", because I have found that It responds to me and tells me what is important.  The Intelligence Out There Or In Here    guides my life.

 

I am now longer a potato in the stew, I am a Mensch.  I am a human being who has constructed my world from the chaotic stew in which we all live.

 

Now I can find those existing theories that put it all together, and I can add some of my own to those theories.  The theory which works the best overall for me is called "Mormonism" and the Intelligence Out There or In Here has told me it is the path I must follow to be happy in life.

 

But your intelligence might tell you something else.   That's ok- I suspect the Intelligence is intelligent enough to know what you need.

 

But you gotta do it.

 

You can't keep getting knocked around by peas and carrots and rubbing against the side of the pot.   That is a miserable way to live- I know!

 

It's going to take me awhile to eat this soup, I want to savor it.  So I'm replying without having done that just wanted to do this for taking all that time on a stinker like me.    Until then, thanks!  

[Gray]

Quick...let's edit all the scriptures to read "Thus we think the Lord means..."

 

David Bokovoy shared some interesting thoughts on that subject recently:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davidbokovoy/2015/04/macus-borg-on-how-to-save-the-bible/

Edited May 8, 2015 by Gray

[Gray]

Oh Gray, you and I know each other well enough at this point that I never assume offense.

 

Yes we do

 

Your first doesn't exactly get my position on salvation.  You are right that I believe an endowment is necessary for exaltation (as does the Church).  But of course I agree with Christ that all that is needed for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom is Baptism.

 

Our concept of afterlife seems decidedly more complex than the simple dichotomy of the NT, doesn't it?

 

Your second assumes I don't agree with all of Christ's commandments.  Where have I ever said that?  Christ said no divorce (except for specific reasons) and I would agree.  Same for swearing oaths.  I try not to disagree with my Savior.

 

And the oath and covenant of the priesthood? The endowment?

 

And your 3rd has been explained away by a million apologists so I see no reason to touch it.

 

The difference is I believe in doing what Christ is recorded as commanding.  That includes when he says ritual is needed.

 

I certainly respect that! Hope you have a great weekend

[mfbukowski]

David Bokovoy shared some interesting thoughts on that subject recently:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davidbokovoy/2015/04/macus-borg-on-how-to-save-the-bible/

David Bokovoy shared some interesting thoughts on that subject recently:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davidbokovoy/2015/04/macus-borg-on-how-to-save-the-bible/

Major problems with that approach, saying it IS human OR divine, because humans ARE divine.

It seems no one sees it both ways at once, and THAT is the problem. Either we believe that or we don't

[Robert F. Smith]

I definitely think we as members should do everything we can to make everyone feel welcome. We are all at different stages of faith. However, I think everyone needs to understand that the full blessings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are available to those who do accept and believe certain things. Attending the temple is a sacred experience. One that I want every one to experience. However, if you do not believe in the restoration of the Gospel, you don't qualify. I still want such a person to come to church with me on Sunday until they have such a testimony. But I don't think that person should be surprised, or angry, or whiney when/if they are deprived of going to the temple (even for a family occasion) because they do not qualify.

 

I think it is stupid I have to qualify with the above, but I do. Otherwise I think what your bishop and stake president are doing is great!

You are quite right.  As Elder Jeff Holland commented during his March 4, 2006, PBS-TV interview (http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html),

 

I think you'd be as aware as I am that that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to its origins, who have some other feeling about it that is not as committed to foundational statements and the premises of Mormonism. But we're not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction. ... We would say: "This is the way I see it, and this is the faith I have; this is the foundation on which I'm going forward. If I can help you work toward that I'd be glad to, but I don't love you less; I don't distance you more; I don't say you're unacceptable to me as a person or even as a Latter-day Saint if you can't make that step or move to the beat of that drum." ... We really don't want to sound smug. We don't want to seem uncompromising and insensitive.

* * * *

There are plenty of people who question the historicity of the Book of Mormon, and they are firmly in this church -- firmly, in their mind, in this church -- and the church isn't going to take action against that. [The church] probably will be genuinely disappointed, but there isn't going to be action against that, not until it starts to be advocacy: "Not only do I disbelieve in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, I want you to disbelieve." At that point, we're going to have a conversation. A little of that is more tolerated than I think a lot of people think it should be. But I think we want to be tolerant any way we can. ... "Patient" maybe is a better word than "tolerant." We want to be patient and charitable to the extent that we can, but there is a degree beyond which we can't go. ...