Why I Argue That Throwing Out 132 Has Precident

[ALarson]

Sure with a date of 1843, I can see that misunderstanding from a member. He died in 1844. Little does the revelation or unread member know that many of his polygamous unions occurred before 1843.

This.  Add to that, nothing is taught about Joseph's polygamy at church (Sunday lessons such as RS, Priesthood, Gospel Doctrine) even when the topic is about Joseph Smith and his life.  They just omit any mention of his polygamy.  

 

I think most members (at least until recently) just had a vague idea that maybe Joseph married some older widows, but weren't even real sure about that.  Finally it's being discussed a bit more. But polygamy is still not a welcome topic on Sunday either in talks from the pulpit or in lessons taught.

 

It's unfair to blame members for not knowing about Joseph's polygamy.  Even most who knew he was married to other women are just now starting to learn the details of his polygamy and polyandry.

 

It's also confusing that Joseph received the revelation back in 1843, but then Brigham Young did not go public with it until many years later out in Utah.  So members know Joseph received the revelation but are unsure if he ever lived polygamy (without much further study outside of Sunday curriculum). 

Edited April 29, 2015 by ALarson

[carbon dioxide]

I knew Joseph Smith and others practiced polygamy as a teenager.  If a member is not aware of this, they have had their heads buried in the sand.    I would say that if the reason to get rid of D&C 132 is due to polygamy, I think on should also want to remove all references to polygamy in the scriptures completely.  Then nobody who dislikes the practice will feel uncomfortable.  They should also stop referring to the "house of Israel" since it was only through polygamy that it came to be.  In fact all patriarchal blessings should be eliminated since they usually tell a person's lineage.  Do you really want your lineage to be traced back to polygamy? 

Edited April 29, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[thesometimesaint]

You failed on both. First, nothing in scripture particularly to JS, second reference too late, not there on the onset of most people's first learning outside of church curriculum. Where are the details of JS' s living polygamy in church curriculam before 2014?

How appropiate that we discuss this, I believe today or tomorrow, the lesson in seminaries all over, will be on D & C 132.

 

Look; I understand you don't like polygamy. I don't care for it either, but that is not the issue.

 

JS translated the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon contains polygamy at Gods' command.

SEE Jacob 2: 24-30.

 

Also JS was well aware of fact that the Bible contains lots of polygamy.

 

Polygamy is inseparable from Mormonism.

 

Personally I don't need the details of anyone's marriage to know that they are married. It is none of my business.

 

Section 132 has been in our Scriptures for a long time now, along with OD1. Seems to me that if polygamy wasn't practiced there would be little, to no, need for OD1.

[JulieM]

Of course members know that polygamy was practiced in the early days of the church. They also know that Joseph received the revelation about it. But from there it gets hazey without more research. It's absolutely true that how Joseph lived polygamy is an avoided topic in church. I remember the year we studied the teachings of Joseph Smith in relief society. There are specific instructions in the preface of that lesson manual to NOT discuss polygamy. Why? Wasn't polygamy a teaching of Joseph Smith's? He received the revelation! Thus, the confusion of members on this topic even today.

Edited April 29, 2015 by JulieM

[SmileyMcGee]

This is usually the response that is given by people in order to lessen the spiritual experience of the lds. And as we know the lds church depends on the spiritual experiences of its members. Take away the importance of these experiences, then one can take away the truth claims in Moroni. Take away that truth claim, give equal precedence to other faiths, then one puts the lds church on the level of other churches and make the spiritual experiences of the lds church members meaningless. I suppose that we can call it spiritual relativism and it is a wonderful gimmick to get the lds to question their own spiritual experience importance. In fact, critics use such logic all the time. I am amazed that when I ask an exmember about their spiritual experiences they had in the lds church and how they would testify of them as a member and now they left the fold...how do they reconcile their former spiritual experiences, they always respond: People in other faiths have the same experiences and so, what then? They are meaningless as to the truth claims of the lds church since everybody has them, muslims, hindus, jews, other christians, even attending a baseball game can give someone such an experience.

However we all know that members can receive quite a few spiritual exeriences that are directed by the holy ghost. It is one of the foundations of the lds church: the holy ghost testifying of its truth and allowing members to have its guidence. And yes, I do think that this is a lds happening. Much less so in other faiths. But that is just my perspective. I have met with many members of other faiths and it does not seem to be shared as with the lds. When one prays about the book of mormon and receives a spiritual experience that it is true it can be quite convincing...

I have never heard a muslim make such a claim nor do the muslims claim that by reading the koran one can get a spiritual experience from god that it is true. Likewise for other faiths. They make no so claim or promise. But it is just my humble opinion.

Can you give a good reason, without appealing to you own bias, as to why the spiritual experiences of Mormons should not be on the same level as the experiences of members of other faiths?

Of course spirituality is relative. Do you know of some objective, absolute measure of the authenticity of spiritual experiences?

No, we don't "all know that members can receive quite a few experiences that are directed by the Holy Ghost." Not even the members having those experiences can know whether their experiences are directed by God, satan, personal bias, or some other method. They just believe they are directed by the Holy Ghost.

So you've never heard a member of another faith talk about an experience that confirm their religious beliefs? I would suggest venturing outside of this forum. You'll likely learn that you're not the only one who thinks the world revolves around your religious beliefs.

[thesometimesaint]

Of course members know that polygamy was practiced in the early days of the church. They also know that Joseph received the revelation about it. But from there it gets hazey without more research. It's absolutely true that how Joseph lived polygamy is an avoided topic in church. I remember the year we studied the teachings of Joseph Smith in relief society. There are specific instructions in the preface of that lesson manual to NOT discuss polygamy. Why? Wasn't polygamy a teaching of Joseph Smith's? He received the revelation! Thus, the confusion of members on this topic even today.

 

Probably because it is so very easy to get distracted by his polygamy that we neglect the rest of Restored Gospel. IE; How many wives did he have? Did he have sex with all those wives? How many children did it produce, and with whom? Was he a not to be trusted scoundrel because of it? Add to the list of questions as you wish.

[ttribe]

I dont know about the flds women. I have never asked them. I would think however that it is something that few have questioned never mind prayed over. I just know the stories of the lds women who prayed about the principle and received quite strong spiritual experiences confirming its truth. And then they accepted. Now were these women delusional? Were they going through a pyschotic experience or did they have a genuine spiritual experience from god? Likewise do church members who seem to have many spiritual  experiences as members are these experiences from god or are they from some delusional mental happenings? When one compares life in the lds church and life in other churches, it seems that the lds have quite a few spiritual confirmations and daily directions from the holy ghost. I just don't hear people from other faiths making such claims so often.

 

The issue of reconciling LDS faith-affirming spiritual experiences with those of other faiths is an ongoing issue.  That you don't seem willing to give them due consideration is problematic and is a head-buried-in-the-sand approach.  It's also puzzling given your dual Catholic and LDS memberships.

 

Back to my example - yes, there are documented instances of women in Mormon-splinter groups claiming spiritual confirmation of the current practice of polygamy; often using language almost identical to that used within the Church to describe confirmatory experiences.  Given OD1 and OD2, then, they would seem to be receiving "revelation" in direct contradiction to that received through approved, prophetic, channels.  Therefore, it is reasonable to infer that someone is wrong; us, them, or both.  Moreover, this further injures anyone's ability to appeal to the recorded instances of 19th century women who claim similar experiences led them to accept polygamy as evidence of its being sourced from God.  Why?  Because women are still claiming to receive such revelation and I'm quite sure you (and the Church) would reject its validity.

Edited April 29, 2015 by ttribe

[Tacenda]

Probably because it is so very easy to get distracted by his polygamy that we neglect the rest of Restored Gospel. IE; How many wives did he have? Did he have sex with all those wives? How many children did it produce, and with whom? Was he a not to be trusted scoundrel because of it? Add to the list of questions as you wish.

I agree.  Everyone knew BY lived polygamy.  There were family photos on the walls of his wives in the Lion House/Beehive House (?).  But they've been taken down.  So in my mind and probably a whole host of others minds, they believe it was a teaching lived primarily after Nauvoo.  Not a lot of us grew up with it taught in the home, a lot of us just learned some bits of history at church.  It would have been nice if there were photos in Nauvoo with JS's wives say when Nauvoo became a well known historical site.  But.it.never.happened!  Is that not a clue, to the clueless?  I didn't need details really.  I didn't care about BY's wives, felt fine.  Not so much now with all the details.  But at the very least the church can give more evidence of JS's polygamy like they did with BY.  I can say boldly that the church hid it.  It's obvious.  But for some reason some on here can't admit that.  Why?  Do you people understand that the church leaving that out is the cause of many people leaving the church?  And do you know it is the cause of people's marriages being harmed?  When will the church take responsibility?  Pres. Uchtdorf's comment in GC isn't enough, though much appreciated.  I think the white washing occurred with Joseph F. Smith.  He didn't want his family tarnished in any way.  But people's very lives, livelihoods, families, testimonies, even in God, were on the line.  I think the church will figure it out, it already has and they are trying to fix the problem.  It can't come soon enough.  End rant.  

[JLHPROF]

You failed on both. First, nothing in scripture particularly to JS, second reference too late, not there on the onset of most people's first learning outside of church curriculum. Where are the details of JS' s living polygamy in church curriculum before 2014?

How appropiate that we discuss this, I believe today or tomorrow, the lesson in seminaries all over, will be on D & C 132.

 

I don't think Jacob 2 is any indication of Joseph living polygamy.

But how anyone can read D&C 132 from beginning to end and NOT know Joseph practiced polygamy is a mystery to me.

 

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

 

SUBJECT OF THE NEXT VERSES - The law of the priesthood as given by Christ and God defined in vs 34

 

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

 

Vs 29-30 - Promises made to Abraham for entering the law defined in vs 34

 

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

 

Vs 31-33 - 1st indication that Joseph commanded to enter the law defined in vs 34.

 

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

 

Vs 34 - Definition of this law of the priesthood = Plural Marriage / Vs 35 - Abraham commanded

 

36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

 

Vs. 37-39 Further explanation of the law identified as plural marriage as lived by Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, Moses etc. 

 

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

 

2nd allusion to Joseph entering the law - restoring these things.

 

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

 

3rd indication that Joseph lived plural marriage

 

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

 

4th indication that Joseph lived plural marriage

 

 

I don't know how hard that is to recognize.  Perhaps it should have been included in the lessons on D&C 132.

[Calm]

There are specific instructions in the preface of that lesson manual to NOT discuss polygamy. Why? Wasn't polygamy a teaching of Joseph Smith's? He received the revelation! Thus, the confusion of members on this topic even today.

Here is what is specifically said about polygamy in the introduction, it answers the "why" pretty clearly it seems to me:

  

Teachings for Our Day

This book deals with teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that have application to our day. For example, this book does not discuss such topics as the Prophet’s teachings regarding the law of consecration as applied to stewardship of property. The Lord withdrew this law from the Church because the Saints were not prepared to live it (see D&C 119, section heading). This book also does not discuss plural marriage. The doctrines and principles relating to plural marriage were revealed to Joseph Smith as early as 1831. The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime. Over the next several decades, under the direction of the Church Presidents who succeeded Joseph Smith, a significant number of Church members entered into plural marriages. In 1890, President Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto, which discontinued plural marriage in the Church (see Official Declaration 1). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no longer practices plural marriage.

 

Perhaps what you are confusing specific instructions about plural marriage with was this general instruction:

Help participants focus on Joseph Smith’s teachings. Have them read his words to generate discussion and to answer questions. If the discussion begins to stray from the topic or becomes speculative or contentious, redirect the discussion by referring back to an event, doctrine, or principle in the chapter.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/introduction?lang=eng

[JulieM]

Probably because it is so very easy to get distracted by his polygamy that we neglect the rest of Restored Gospel. IE; How many wives did he have? Did he have sex with all those wives? How many children did it produce, and with whom? Was he a not to be trusted scoundrel because of it? Add to the list of questions as you wish.

Hey, I get that. But if his polygamy had been discussed as part of his life and teachings all along, it wouldn't be such a hot topic or one with so many questions surrounding it. It would just be part of his life. I know people bristle when members say they feel Joseph Smith's polygamy was hidden but it should be understandable why we feel it was when teaching about it or speaking of it at church was strictly avoided and it was (and still is) very taboo to bring it up.

[Scott Lloyd]

Here is what is specifically said about polygamy in the introduction, it answers the "why" pretty clearly it seems to me:

  

 

Perhaps what you are confusing specific instructions about plural marriage with was this general instruction:

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/introduction?lang=eng

Moreover, the Teachings of Presidents of the Church manual is not strictly an instructor's manual. Rather, each and every member of the class (be it Relief Society or Melchizedek Priesthood) is to be provided a copy of the manual, and all are encouraged to read it on their own, preferably each chapter in advance of it being discussed in class.

 

I can understand and be tolerant of people not getting around to doing the reading; I'm neglectful myself in that regard.

 

What I find hard to accept is blame placed upon the Church for failing to teach what was provided all along in reading material. Every choice we make bears a consequence, and one should not try to shift blame to others for the consequences of one's own choices.

[Scott Lloyd]

Hey, I get that. But if his polygamy had been discussed as part of his life and teachings all along, it wouldn't be such a hot topic or one with so many questions surrounding it. It would just be part of his life. I know people bristle when members say they feel Joseph Smith's polygamy was hidden but it should be understandable why we feel it was when teaching about it or speaking of it at church was strictly avoided and it was (and still is) very taboo to bring it up.

Not taboo to bring it up, but rather, to try to monopolize lesson time with a discussion of it when, arguably, there are more important uses of the scarce time from a gospel application/motivation standpoint.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

I agree.  Everyone knew BY lived polygamy.  There were family photos on the walls of his wives in the Lion House/Beehive House (?).  But they've been taken down.  So in my mind and probably a whole host of others minds, they believe it was a teaching lived primarily after Nauvoo.  Not a lot of us grew up with it taught in the home, a lot of us just learned some bits of history at church.  It would have been nice if there were photos in Nauvoo with JS's wives say when Nauvoo became a well known historical site.  But.it.never.happened!  Is that not a clue, to the clueless?  I didn't need details really.  I didn't care about BY's wives, felt fine.  Not so much now with all the details.  But at the very least the church can give more evidence of JS's polygamy like they did with BY.  I can say boldly that the church hid it.  It's obvious.  But for some reason some on here can't admit that.  Why?  Do you people understand that the church leaving that out is the cause of many people leaving the church?  And do you know it is the cause of people's marriages being harmed?  When will the church take responsibility?  Pres. Uchtdorf's comment in GC isn't enough, though much appreciated.  I think the white washing occurred with Joseph F. Smith.  He didn't want his family tarnished in any way.  But people's very lives, livelihoods, families, testimonies, even in God, were on the line.  I think the church will figure it out, it already has and they are trying to fix the problem.  It can't come soon enough.  End rant.  

Interestingly, Joseph's polygamy is in the D&C student manual for seminary. It has been there for years and years. How is that hiding its history? It is also in the young adult manual. Now I must admit that joseph's polygamy is  not discussed very much in meetings. But then again, BYs polygamy is not discussed either. In fact, I haven't seen a lesson on polygamy in 30 years. And it doesn't matter if it is jospeh's or brigham's or Heber's etc. It is just not talked about. I must say that in high school history  books mormon polygamy is mentioned as something mormons practiced in utah. This is where I first heard of it as a young catholic boy in high school.

 

People leave over polygamy for reasons that are not exactly true reasons. First, as I mentioned it is discussed in seminary and in institute because it is in the manual. However, when members go to critic websites, they read that the church is hiding its history and are shocked. Not realizing that our young people have been hearing about it for years.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 132:1–2, 34–48 The Lord reveals the principle of plural marriage

Begin by explaining that while Joseph Smith was working on the inspired translation of the Old Testament in 1831, he read about some of the ancient prophets practicing plural marriage (also called polygamy). Under this practice, one man is married to more than one living wife. The Prophet studied the scriptures, pondered what he learned, and eventually took his questions about plural marriage to Heavenly Father in prayer.

Write Genesis 16:1–3 on the board. Explain that these verses describe the actions of Sarai and Abram, later known as Sarah and Abraham. Invite a student to read these verses aloud. Ask the class to follow along and think about any questions they might have about this event in Abram and Sarai’s life.

Invite students to read Doctrine and Covenants 132:1 silently, looking for what the Prophet Joseph Smith asked as he studied passages in the Old Testament concerning the practice of plural marriage. Ask students to report what they find. (You may want to explain that the word concubine is a term used to describe women in the Old Testament who, in the time and culture in which they lived, were legally married to a man but had a lower social status than a wife. Concubines were not part of the practice of plural marriage in our dispensation.)

Write the following question on the board: Why would the Lord command righteous men and women to obey the principle of plural marriage at certain times?

Explain that in their study of Doctrine and Covenants 132, students can find answers to the question on the board and other questions they may have concerning plural marriage. Invite them to write down the doctrines and principles they discover during their study today.

Invite a few students to take turns reading aloud from Doctrine and Covenants 132:34–36. Ask the class to follow along, looking for why Abraham and Sarah began to practice plural marriage.

 

.............................................................

 

Doctrine and Covenants 132:49–66 The Lord counsels Joseph and Emma Smith concerning plural marriage

Explain that the Prophet Joseph Smith was reluctant to begin the practice of plural marriage. He stated that he did not begin the practice until he was warned that he would be destroyed if he did not obey (see “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record, May 1887, 222). Because of a lack of historical documentation, we do not know about Joseph Smith’s early attempts to comply with the commandment. However, by 1841 the Prophet had begun to obey the commandment and to teach it to some members of the Church, and over the next three years he married additional wives in accordance with the Lord’s commands. The Prophet Joseph Smith’s obedience to the Lord’s commandment to practice plural marriage was a trial of faith for him and his wife Emma, whom he loved dearly.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-6/lesson-140-doctrine-and-covenants-132-1-2-34-66?lang=eng

 

So, is the church hiding joseph's polygamy?

[ERayR]

 again I applaud your holiness and righteousness, if only I could be as pure and delightsome as you.  Please Scott, you have not once heard my personal position so don't make assumptions and then get all holier than thou with me.   

 

You can if you choose to.

[Nevo]

Polygamy is inseparable from Mormonism.

 

It's a big part of the history of Mormonism, sure, but it's quite separable from contemporary Mormonism. The new 2013 edition of the scriptures goes out of its way to de-emphasize polygamy as a doctrine of the Church.

 

OD1 now has an introductory paragraph stating that “the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach that monogamy is God’s standard for marriage unless He declares otherwise (see 2 Samuel 12:7-8 and Jacob 2:27, 30)." Plural marriage was a divinely authorized "religious practice" among nineteenth-century members of the Church, but it was an exception to the rule, a special circumstance.

 

In the 1981 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, the heading to section 132 read: "Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

 

It now reads: "Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in this revelation were known by the Prophet as early as 1831." The former reference to "doctrines . . . in this revelation" was dropped. Is this an admission that polygamy may not be doctrinal? Perhaps not, but one is left to wonder. It does not seem to be affirmed anywhere these days.

[why me]

Hey, I get that. But if his polygamy had been discussed as part of his life and teachings all along, it wouldn't be such a hot topic or one with so many questions surrounding it. It would just be part of his life. I know people bristle when members say they feel Joseph Smith's polygamy was hidden but it should be understandable why we feel it was when teaching about it or speaking of it at church was strictly avoided and it was (and still is) very taboo to bring it up.

However, they do discuss it in seminary and in institute. How much should we talk about it? Read the d&c manual that I linked to. It is pretty much discussed there. However, are the teens listening when it is taught? I still find it amazing that people are still claiming that the church is hiding it. What more should they do, if not teach the young about polygamy as they have been doing?

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-6/lesson-140-doctrine-and-covenants-132-1-2-34-66?lang=eng

Edited April 29, 2015 by why me

[Nevo]

So, is the church hiding joseph's polygamy?

 

You're quoting this year's seminary manual. It has a whole lesson devoted to the discussion of polygamy (which I'm teaching tomorrow, actually ). Previous manuals said very little about it.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Nevo

[Scott Lloyd]

However, they do discuss it in seminary and in institute. How much should we talk about it? Read the d&c manual that I linked to. It is pretty much discussed there. However, are the teens listening when it is taught? I still find it amazing that people are still claiming that the church is hiding it. What more should they do, if not teach the young about polygamy as they have been doing?

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-6/lesson-140-doctrine-and-covenants-132-1-2-34-66?lang=eng

I sat next to Daniel Peterson and his wife at a dinner some months ago and the conversation turned to this matter of the Church hiding stuff.

 

He suggested something more that could be done: Going door-to-door, force-feeding it to everyone, and then getting them to sign off on it.

 

But that still wouldn't be enough; some would fail to answer the door or refuse to listen or sign, and then would complain later they weren't told.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

why me,

A Seminary lesson? Oh please! Show me a Gospel Doctrine lesson. A Relief Society lesson. A Priesthood lesson. Even you admit you haven't heard a lesson on polygamy "in 30 years"!! And read through what you posted, where does it discuss how Joseph actually lived the principle? It only states ha married additional wives over a 3 year period. Which is not even accurate.

Edited to add:

I now see posted that you quoted THIS year's seminary manual. I thought we were talking about past year's lessons (?). But it's good they're starting to at least teach it to the kids if not to the adults yet

Edited April 29, 2015 by JulieM

[JLHPROF]

I don't think Jacob 2 is any indication of Joseph living polygamy.

But how anyone can read D&C 132 from beginning to end and NOT know Joseph practiced polygamy is a mystery to me.

 

 

I don't know how hard that is to recognize.  Perhaps it should have been included in the lessons on D&C 132.

 

 

Interestingly, Joseph's polygamy is in the D&C student manual for seminary. It has been there for years and years.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-6/lesson-140-doctrine-and-covenants-132-1-2-34-66?lang=eng

 

So, is the church hiding joseph's polygamy?

 

 

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/introduction?lang=eng

 

 

So Joseph's personal practice of polygamy is in D&C 132, the Seminary manual, the Joseph Smith manual, many historical biographies, all over the internet, and heaven only knows how many other places.

 

Worst hidden secret in the world apparently.

[Scott Lloyd]

why me,

A Seminary lesson? Oh please! Show me a Gospel Doctrine lesson. A Relief Society lesson. A Priesthood lesson. Even you admit you haven't heard a lesson on polygamy "in 30 years"!! And read through what you posted, where does it discuss how Joseph actually lived the principle? It only states ha married additional wives over a 3 year period. Which is not even accurate.

How is it inaccurate?

[JLHPROF]

Prove it, prove it by showing me the women in scriptures that Joseph Smith married.  Prove that, even prove the BY did in the scriptures.  Since you mention reading about it in the scriptures. The closest thing I ever read was in "The Work and the Glory" series by Gerald Lund.  He failed to explain the extent that Joseph lived polygamy.  He had a great opportunity to do so but left that out. The only thing he provided was that Joseph was told to live it, and that he struggled to do it, then it skips over all of it, leaving one to believe that he never got the chance before his death.  

 

Formal CFR here.  Also, prove it was taught in Sunday School.  Then tell me as a member for 45 years, how I was to even have read that.  Where, provide it more than in the scriptures where was I to find this info.  In the anti Mormon polygamy stuff?  I distinctly remember being in the city library many years ago and picking up a book that felt anti and quickly put it back on the shelf and feeling a dark feeling, like I had been conditioned to do the minute I see someone putting Joseph in a different light then I was taught.  Maybe that's why I never knew.  I was taught to close my eyes and run.      

 

Seminary lesson? Oh please! Show me a Gospel Doctrine lesson. A Relief Society lesson. A Priesthood lesson. Even you admit you haven't heard a lesson on polygamy "in 30 years"!! And read through what you posted, where does it discuss how Joseph actually lived the principle? It only states ha married additional wives over a 3 year period. Which is not even accurate.

 

Gee, given these reactions I don't wonder why a historical practice of polygamy isn't discussed and why the Church chose not to teach on a subject that is no longer part of the practice.

It may have been a mistake to let it fester and not address it, but given the response the second they start addressing it I am not surprised.

[Scott Lloyd]

So Joseph's personal practice of polygamy is in D&C 132, the Seminary manual, the Joseph Smith manual, many historical biographies, all over the internet, and heaven only knows how many other places.

 

Worst hidden secret in the world apparently.

Unless maybe it was the gun Joseph had at Carthage?

 

Nah, that was better hidden. The pistol was squirreled away in full view on the main floor of a museum with free admission in the center of downtown Salt Lake City for over 25 years.

 

And the museum was closed last year for renovation.

 

Never mind that it will reopen later this year with the gun again on full display

 

But I digress.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

I sat next to Daniel Peterson and his wife at a dinner some months ago and the conversation turned to this matter of the Church hiding stuff.

 

He suggested something more that could be done: Going door-to-door, force-feeding it to everyone, and then getting them to sign off on it.

 

But that still wouldn't be enough; some would fail to answer the door or refuse to listen or sign, and then would complain later they weren't told.

I think the Church is in a tough spot in many ways. Some will never be satisfied, as you suggest. I think so. I listen to some critics and it seems every perceived evil was practiced by LDS folks way back when, every little allusion to some past leader doing evil is established fact, as they dogmatically condemn believers. much of the history has just gotten pretty complicated, so much so, that each member would have to go through advanced college programs to get a good feel for it. That's just ridiculous to think about. But that doesn't stop some of us from concluding the materials and manuals are deplorable in some respects.