Alternate Voices And Correlation

[CCRW]

In hopes of a non-contentious discussion and in moving this from another thread:

 

Questions:

1. Is the Correlated Gospel something less than the "Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ".

2. If so, why and does it matter?

 

First a few of Scott's opening thoughts moved from a different thread thread:

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65233-lectures-on-faith/?p=1209489369

 

Some further information on Elder Oaks talk quoted in Scott's comment:

 

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/076-07-10.pdf

 

 

I would suggest that to a "Literal'ist"

1. yes

2. yes

 

And to and an "intricate'ist"

1. yes

2. no

 

(see http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65281-literalism/)

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[Gray]

Uncorrelated doctrine to me is the kind of stuff that kind of gets passed along virally within the church (by church leaders and lay members). Mormon Doctrine (the book) is just full of uncorrelated "viral" doctrines. So are old conference talks and books like The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (the most interesting book I read on my mission).  

 

I would use the word doctrine rather than gospel to describe what is and what is not correlated. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by Gray

[CCRW]

I was always surprised when TPJS would be declared non-doctrinal ... well catching myself doctrinal and Restored Gospel are not synonymous correct?

[JLHPROF]

I was always surprised when TPJS would be declared non-doctrinal ... well catching myself doctrinal and Restored Gospel are not synonymous correct?

 

To me it's as doctrinal as the scriptures.  But then that's just me.  I referenced TPJS in Elders once and got puzzled looks ("what's TPJS?")

Edited April 24, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

Questions:

1. Is the Correlated Gospel something less than the "Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ".

2. If so, why and does it matter?

 

I would suggest that to a "Literal'ist"

1. yes

2. yes

 

And to and an "intricate'ist"

1. yes

2. no

 

Sounds right.

Correlation is NOT a bad thing and has its place.

Correlation that limits the depth of study is where the problem lies.

 

Removing everything that goes beneath the surface on any issue does more harm than good.  It allows two things to happen:

1. Random people supplement the correlated materials with unofficial ideas and spread nonsense.

2. People stick only to the correlated materials and never grow or learn anything new.

 

Neither is good in my opinion.

[Coreyb]

The gospel of correlation is not the same thing as the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is like taking a photograph of a vast and beautiful landscape and acting like the photograph is the landscape itself.

[rpn]

The problem with correlation is exactly what happened to the ETB manuals this year, which propounds in Chapter 11 once again the Fourteen Fundamentals that then Elder Benson gave at BYU, which prompted then Pres. Kimball's upset because he wanted "to protect the church against being misunderstood as ...espousing an unthinking 'follow the leader' mentality."  (See "Lengthen Your Stride" by Edward Kimball).   Most members do not know that Elder Benson was challenged on that talk among his peers.   And to my knowledge, it has never been released exactly how much or which words Pres. Kimball objected to.   

 

So it is all too easy for ETB's words to have been included in the correlated manual, because the words were published but no retraction was.    The concerns about Mormon Doctrine fall into the same place.

 

While it is nice for everything published to be consistent with each other, that does not and cannot reflect the reality that members of the Church and indeed General Authorities, local leaders, apostles and prophets do not agree on all interpretations of all scriptures or visions or the wisdom of all policies.    We pretend that all the Quorum and the First Presidency believe exactly the same things, but on this board we know that faithful and well informed members do not.   We know that apostles defied  accepted revelation and performed polygamous marriages with impunity long after they should not have.    We know that  David O McKay, determined to interpret the blacks and the priesthood issue to only involve those with african heritage, when he had a chance to limit its effect on the south pacific.   We know that others on the Twelve were adament  that blacks would never hold the priesthood in this life.

 

I've not read how people are chosen for the correlation committee, or even what the committee does.   But I wonder whether the full diversity of faithful member thought and the sources that account for the diversity in thought are fully reconciled.    If they are not  then correlation is at best a failed statement of what should be by those who may or may not even be aware that others who are equally seeking God have either resolved it differently, or determined it could not yet be resolved with current knowledge and revelation.

[Glenn101]

I have not opined much about the continuing discussions on Correlation, what should be taught, etc. Maybe its because of the old adage, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool rather than to open your  (my) mouth and remove all doubt." So, at that risk, I am going to make note of a couple of things.

 

The first note is that the various teaching classes in Sunday School and Priesthood or Sunday School and Relief Society have maybe a total of eighty minutes per Sunday to actually present a lesson, or maybe less. This really is an incredibly tiny slice of the time pie in which to teach doctrine. From the time I was old enough to start to grasp the rudiments of what I was being taught, one of the principles that I was taught is/was that the majority of study and learning that we should be doing is "on our own time" so to speak.

 

Those who are called to the job of doing the correlating and selecting what will (hopefully) be presented during any one year have a daunting task, and I am pretty certain that they are charged with keeping the information on the "fundamentals", which to me, mean, what is necessary for attaining salvation and exaltation. And over the years, those messages will be (and are) repeated over and over again, maybe in slightly different packaging. Maybe people get tired of that same ol' same ol'. Peter did. Listen (read) what transpired:

 

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. (John Chapter 21)

 

And then there was Joseph Smith's visitation from Moroni, where Moroni, in Joseph's words:

 But what was my surprise when again I beheld the same messenger at my bedside, and heard him rehearse or repeat over again to me the same things as before;  (POGP, JS-History, verse 46)

 

In section 19 of the Doctrine and Covenants, Martin Harris is given a lot of information, but then he is told:

 21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

 22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.

 23 Learn of me, and listen to my words; walk in the meekness of my Spirit, and you shall have peace in me.

 

I just think that we are making a mountain out of a mole hill about Correlation and what is actually being taught. Maybe some of us are becoming too much like the Athenians whom Paul addressed at  Mars Hill. Luke characterized them in Acts 17:21: "For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing."    

 

Glenn

[CCRW]

I have not opined much about the continuing discussions on Correlation, what should be taught, etc. Maybe its because of the old adage, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool rather than to open your  (my) mouth and remove all doubt." So, at that risk, I am going to make note of a couple of things.

 

No need to fear, you can never out do this fool (me)!

 

The first note is that the various teaching classes in Sunday School and Priesthood or Sunday School and Relief Society have maybe a total of eighty minutes per Sunday to actually present a lesson, or maybe less. This really is an incredibly tiny slice of the time pie in which to teach doctrine. From the time I was old enough to start to grasp the rudiments of what I was being taught, one of the principles that I was taught is/was that the majority of study and learning that we should be doing is "on our own time" so to speak.

 

Coming from the Lectures on Faith thread, I was simply pining for a School of the Prophets in addition.

 

Those who are called to the job of doing the correlating and selecting what will (hopefully) be presented during any one year have a daunting task, and I am pretty certain that they are charged with keeping the information on the "fundamentals", which to me, mean, what is necessary for attaining salvation and exaltation.

 

I believe the Church deals with  only Aaronic level issues which are only responsible  to cry repentance to the people.  And to provide the Aaronic ordinances that support this.  I think that covers salvation but not exaltation.

 

And over the years, those messages will be (and are) repeated over and over again, maybe in slightly different packaging. Maybe people get tired of that same ol' same ol'. Peter did. Listen (read) what transpired:

...

Somewhere I think there is a fine line between the need for repetition to learn and the potential for indoctrination which proves limiting and/or unhealthy for individuals.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2015 by CCRW

[hagoth7]

...I referenced TPJS in Elders once and got puzzled looks ("what's TPJS?")

That's beyond bizarre.

[BCSpace]

Is the Correlated Gospel something less than the "Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ".

 

The 'Correlated Gospel' is the Systematic Theology of the Church.

 

 

To me it's as doctrinal as the scriptures.  But then that's just me.  I referenced TPJS in Elders once and got puzzled looks ("what's TPJS?")

 

 

The nice thing about TPJS and Mormon Doctrine etc. is that they are quoted often in official LDS publications making those specific quotes official doctrine.

[CCRW]

From the LoF thread:

"uncorrelated" (The fullness of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ), not something limited to 72 index cards.

 

Scott stated in response:

 

What you identify here as the "uncorrelated gospel" is really the correlated one.

The other is your own caricature that bears scarce, if any, resemblance to reality.

 

Later in the thread

not sure what you mean by the correlated gospel. The gospel is what it is. If we seek the Spirit we can learn about the truth.

 

From what has been posted so far, am I interpreting the following correctly?

 

In answer to the OP question 1. Is the Correlated Gospel something less than the "Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ".

 

Scott    no

Glenn   no

cv75     no and/or yes

rpn       no

 

Avatar   ccrw not sure based on response

Gray     same

hagoth  same

 

jlhprof      yes

coreyb     yes

BCSpace yes (introduced new term?)

ccrw         yes

senator    yes?

janderich  yes

smac       yes (based on "good faith effort")

cv75        yes and/or no (confused, what can we say)

Edited April 26, 2015 by CCRW

[Senator]

"For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing."    

 

What if the above read as:

 

"For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear nothing new."

 

 

I don't know which is worse.

[SmileyMcGee]

Uncorrelated doctrine to me is the kind of stuff that kind of gets passed along virally within the church (by church leaders and lay members). Mormon Doctrine (the book) is just full of uncorrelated "viral" doctrines. So are old conference talks and books like The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (the most interesting book I read on my mission).

I would use the word doctrine rather than gospel to describe what is and what is not correlated.

How long before current conference talks become "viral doctrines?" Or are they already?

[CV75]

The Gospel of Christ is that Jesus came to the world to do the will of the Father, because the Father sent Him (3 Nephi 27:13; 11:10-11). The fulness of the Gospel is the Restoration or Restored Gospel and all that entails (3 Nephi 20:28; 16:10). The Doctrine of Christ is not to contend against His servants and receive Him through them (3 Nephi 11:29-41).

[CCRW]

The Gospel of Christ is that Jesus came to the world to do the will of the Father, because the Father sent Him (3 Nephi 27:13; 11:10-11). The fulness of the Gospel is the Restoration or Restored Gospel and all that entails (3 Nephi 20:28; 16:10). The Doctrine of Christ is not to contend against His servants and receive Him through them (3 Nephi 11:29-41).

3 Nephi 20:28 and 16:10 does not seem to shed much light on what is/is not contained in the Restored Gospel.  I suppose it does not cover restore from a given state (time of Christ) and add to (current time).

Edited April 25, 2015 by CCRW

[CV75]

3 Nephi 20:28 and 16:10 does not seem to shed much light on what is/is not contained in the Restored Gospel.  I suppose it does not cover restore from a given state (time of Christ) and add to (current time).

I think they speak to two things. One is the fulness of Christ's coming to the earth. He came in the meridian of time and overcame sin and death in the flesh, but that was not the "fulness," at least from a broader perspective as He was yet to come again according to the Father's will to restore His Church, and will yet come again for the Milennium, the final war between Gog and Magog, the celestialization of the earth, etc. The original writings of the Jews would have contained prophecies of this level of "fulness" in plainess (1 Nephi 13:24). The fulness of the Gospel that the Gentiles are warned not to reject is framed in terms of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 16:4-7; 1 Nephi 13:22-42) and other scripture.

 

I think correllation ties the Gospel of Christ, the fulness of the Gospel of Christ (the Restoration) and the Doctrine of Christ into one relationship. Correllation is performed under Chrst's authority and direction through His servants who are sustained by the beneficiaries of the fulness. His doctrine of the pure love of Christ (as opposed to His adversary's doctrine of contention) protects us in mortality and prepares us for eternity.

[CCRW]

I think they speak to two things. One is the fulness of Christ's coming to the earth. He came in the meridian of time and overcame sin and death in the flesh, but that was not the "fulness," at least from a broader perspective as He was yet to come again according to the Father's will to restore His Church, and will yet come again for the Milennium, the final war between Gog and Magog, the celestialization of the earth, etc. The original writings of the Jews would have contained prophecies of this level of "fulness" in plainess (1 Nephi 13:24). The fulness of the Gospel that the Gentiles are warned not to reject is framed in terms of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 16:4-7; 1 Nephi 13:22-42) and other scripture.

 

I think correllation ties the Gospel of Christ, the fulness of the Gospel of Christ (the Restoration) and the Doctrine of Christ into one relationship. Correllation is performed under Chrst's authority and direction through His servants who are sustained by the beneficiaries of the fulness. His doctrine of the pure love of Christ (as opposed to His adversary's doctrine of contention) protects us in mortality and prepares us for eternity.

cv75,

 

At the brevity of your first post, and reading only the two Fullness references I thought this was a very simplistic answer.  I can see there is more to this that I need to think about.  I don't think I've ever seen this expressed as three items.  I had a hard enough time trying to pray again ... scriptures ... heaven help me, I don't want to.  Thanks for these thoughts.

 

I doubt that I will ever change my thoughts on the correlated gospel being a rich, deep and wide enough pool to cover it all.  I do hope however that I can move past this as the stumbling block that it is for me as I try and join back in.

[CV75]

cv75,

 

At the brevity of your first post, and reading only the two Fullness references I thought this was a very simplistic answer.  I can see there is more to this that I need to think about.  I don't think I've ever seen this expressed as three items.  I had a hard enough time trying to pray again ... scriptures ... heaven help me, I don't want to.  Thanks for these thoughts.

 

I doubt that I will ever change my thoughts on the correlated gospel being a rich, deep and wide enough pool to cover it all.  I do hope however that I can move past this as the stumbling block that it is for me as I try and join back in.

I see correlation as the Lord’s efforts, through His servants, to organize the basic presentation of His message. I think the richness, depth and width of His message is gained by individual application and how a person blesses others, and that the proper delivery, reception and application of His message are entirely dependent on the Spirit (D&C 50:17-22; Mosiah 4:2; 12:27). I see correlation as only the external part of a learning process that must also be internalized, or as a catalyst for further study and action.

 

I do think there are many ways to look at these things. For example, "fulness" of the Gospel can also refer to the doctrines, covenants and ordinances that were brought back from earlier dispensations, plus those newly (or yet to be) introduced in the dispensation of fulness of times.

[rpn]

You got my answer wrong.   I do not claim that the Correlated gospel is not the restored gospel of Jesus Christ at all.   I just suggested that what is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ  or even teh gospel of Jesus Christ is a messy thing, despite the attempts to correlate it.

[CCRW]

You got my answer wrong.   I do not claim that the Correlated gospel is not the restored gospel of Jesus Christ at all.   I just suggested that what is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ  or even teh gospel of Jesus Christ is a messy thing, despite the attempts to correlate it.

 

I've changed your answer to no.  I up voted that post because it fit so well with the linked Sunstone presentation on Alternate voices in the OP.  I do encourage all to read that presentation as I think there are good concepts there for all views on this topic.  Also note that was in the 90's and I feel all more more applicable today.

 

 

Others see post 12 to see if I misrepresented you.

Edited April 25, 2015 by CCRW

[janderich]

Correlation was and is necessary to some extent. With such a large body of members there needs to be some continuity and unity. However, on the other side of the coin is the spirit of Lord working in individual members according to their need and the needs of others. Too much direction from the top can squelch inspiration from the Lord. In the end it becomes a balancing act, and right now I feel that we have been overly regimented. President Packer said it so well in a Worldwide Leadership training when the new Handbook 2 came out:  

Many years ago, President J. Reuben Clark Jr., speaking for the First Presidency, made an inspired statement warning that too much regimentation in the Church would have the effect of nullifying revelation: “The work of the Church, in all fields, is standing in grave danger of being regimented down to the minutest detail. The result of that will be that not only will all initiative be crushed out but that all opportunity for the working of the spirit will be eliminated. The Church has not been built on that principle” (“Memorandum of Suggestions,” Mar. 29, 1940, 4).

And now, this simple scripture: “But notwithstanding those things which are written, it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning, and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit” (D&C 46:2).

I repeat: “But notwithstanding those things which are written, it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning, and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit.”

If we understand that, we will not be led astray in our administration. 

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/print/worldwide-leadership-training/2010/11/concluding-remarks?lang=eng

It always has been, and always will be given to the Elder's of the church to work by the Holy Spirit. Let us never forget that. I am afraid in many instances we have.

[CCRW]

janderich,

 

Nice reference.  That is the one thing I want to remember about BKP ... It seemed he was always speaking on personal revelation.

[smac97]

In hopes of a non-contentious discussion and in moving this from another thread:

 

Questions:

1. Is the Correlated Gospel something less than the "Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ".

First, I am not sure what you mean by "Correlated Gospel."

Second, if your undefined reference to the "Correlated Gospel" is intended as a slur against the Church's general correlation efforts (as I suspect it is), then your proposal for "a non-contentious discussion" is pretty hard to accept. You've started this discussion by poisoning the well.

Third, here are some useful resources which discuss the origins of and developments in the Church's correlation efforts:

 

Chapter Forty-Three: An Era of Correlation and Consolidation

 

Correlation of the Church Administration

 

Fourth, notwithstanding the foregoing, my thought is that the Church's correlation efforts represent a good faith effort to present the Restored Gospel to the body of the Saints and to the world as it is understood by the Brethren according to A) canonical scriptures and the Spirit, B) secondary sources, C) practical experience, and D) common sense.  

 

And Scott was right when he said that "Correlation gets a bad (EDIT TO ADD: 'and mostly undeserved') bad rap among critics."

 

2. If so, why and does it matter?

See the above linked resources.

 

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited April 25, 2015 by smac97

[CCRW]

Hey Smac;

Thanks for those links.  It was good to refresh my understanding from an official source.  It has been some time since I learned of this history from a different source. After reading the material in both of those links, it becomes very clear again that the “correlated gospel” (see first timeline quote below) is something less than the Restored Gospel.  Here are a few quotes (all highlighting mine):

 

From the first link:

“Elder Lee further explained, “In the adoption of such a program, we may possibly and hopefully look forward to the consolidation and simplification of church curricula, church publications, church buildings, church meetings, and many other important aspects of the Lord’s work.”³"

 

"(2) Church programs will not duplicate otherwise available opportunities especially in higher education.”

 

I assume the above quote is foundational to apologetic responses that members are expected to study outside of Church meetings.

 

Elder Richard L. Evans - “That the gospel be taught as completely as possible at least three times during these three age levels of life: children, youth, and adults.”

 

Per upstream conversation on TPJS the following quote was fun, and yet TPJS would not be part of today’s correlated gospel;

 

"Consider the impact just one of his more than two dozen books— Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith —has had on doctrinal understanding and clarity in the Church. Joseph Fielding Smith’s journal explained that the book was compiled because many Church teachers had “accepted too readily the views of uninspired educators.”¹³Since its first printing, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith has been a basic reference for doctrinal interpretation, Church policy, and Church government."

 

There is a timeline towards the bottom, note that the curriculum was the very first thing addressed.  However this has evolved from 54 years ago until today is what I consider “the correlated gospel”.

 

“1961 Church council established to correlate curriculum and activities for children, youth, and adults”

 

From second link:

"Correlation is a unifying process in which each organization of the Church subordinates limited views to the good of the whole Church. It is not censorship in the sense of inhibiting or channeling free expression and creativity. Rather, it is the way the Church ensures suitable and effective use of its resources."

 

“During the 1990s, the focus of Church correlation shifted from maintaining order among Church entities to simplifying and reducing programs and materials, and to limiting volume, complexity, and cost.”

 

“Church leaders have determined that excessively complex and expensive programs and materials can impede taking the gospel to "all nations, kindreds, tongues and people" (D&C 42:58). As the Church grows in developing areas of the world, it will include many members who have limited education and resources.”

 

Summary:

 

“The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of the gospel, and that no man can be saved in ignorance of these things.”¹⁶

 

If anyone is interested in a deep exploration (Doctorate dissertation) on this topic.  There is an excellent podcast available … check out Dymon M. Smith ... do you know the meaning of 72 index cards?

Edited April 25, 2015 by CCRW