Mormonmaniac Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Just calling out the hypocrisy of your statement. If wickedness can really never be happiness, then someone that has happiness cannot be living a wicked life. Either words have meaning or they don't. You want to have your cake and eat it to.There is no hypocrisy. One can find a measure of happiness doing wickedness. But, that measure doesn't last- that is my point. Take a drug addict for example, they get all amped up and it makes them tremendously happy for a measure of time. But, eventually it fades and they are not happy in the end. That is my point. A person in a gay relationship may experience happiness for a season of time but eventually, according to Gods laws, it must end and will not work.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) There is no hypocrisy. One can find a measure of happiness doing wickedness. But, that measure doesn't last- that is my point. Take a drug addict for example, they get all amped up and it makes them tremendously happy for a measure of time. But, eventually it fades and they are not happy in the end. That is my point. A person in a gay relationship may experience happiness for a season of time but eventually, according to Gods laws, it must end and will not work.So how long does happiness have to last before we can conclude that we aren't being wicked? Is one year enough? 5? A life time? Or is this one of these things where even though you live your whole life happy and fulfilled, G-d is going to punish you in the next life at which point you will become unhappy? So we should live this life in an unhappy state in the hope that G-d won't punish us in the life to come, at which point we will be happy. This seems to twist the scripture's meaning beyond recognition, but I guess that is just me. The scripture seemed pretty clear to me when I first read it - I completely missed on the nuance. Edited April 21, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding
The Nehor Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 We cannot determine for sure if it is failing unless we get a final result on heaven vs. hell numbers on those in organized religion and those out.
Mormonmaniac Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 So how long does happiness have to last before we can conclude that we aren't being wicked? Is one year enough? 5? A life time? Or is this one of these things where even though you live your whole life happy and fulfilled, G-d is going to punish you in the next life at which point you will become unhappy? So we should live this life in an unhappy state in the hope that G-d won't punish us in the life to come, at which point we will be happy. This seems to twist the scripture's meaning beyond recognition, but I guess that is just me. The scripture seemed pretty clear to me when I first read it - I completely missed on the nuance.In Alma 41 it speaks about wickedness never was happiness. On the surface we may think some things make us happy even sinful things such as gay relationships, pornography, drugs, etc. But these things do not last but offer a false front to long term happiness.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 I can't imagine anyone reading that book more than once so kudos on that i guess. But exactly what Hitler was saying about God in that book is greatly debated, given his views later in life. Most historians believe that he was neutral to the idea of God and did not believe in the eternal existence of the soul. He also believed that most of life was just a fight for supremacy. None of his actions were predicated upon him trying to obey God or follow the doctrines of any belief system.Wikipedia on Ariosophy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism:In the 1980s, two Ph.D. theses were written about the topic. Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke published The Occult Roots of Nazism (1985) based on his thesis, and the German librarian and historian Ulrich Hunger's thesis on rune-lore in Nazi Germany (Die Runenkunde im Dritten Reich) was published in the series Europäische Hochschulschriften (also 1985).Goodrick-Clarke's book The Occult Roots... is not only considered "without exception"[9] to be the pioneering work on Ariosophy, but also the "definitive book" on the topic.[9] The term 'Ariosophy' refers to an esoteric movement in Germany and Austria of the 1900s to 1930s. It clearly falls under Goodrick-Clarke's definition of occultism, as it obviously drew on the western esoteric tradition. Ideologically, it was remarkably similar to Nazism. According to Goodrick-Clarke, the Ariosophists wove occult ideas into the völkisch ideology that existed in Germany and Austria at the time.[10] Ariosophy shared the racial awareness of völkisch ideology,[11] but also drew upon a notion of root races, postulating locations such as Atlantis, Thule and Hyperborea as the original homeland of the Aryan race (and its "purest" branch, the Teutons or Germanic peoples). The Ariosophic writings described a glorious ancient Germanic past, in which an elitist priesthood "expounded occult-racist doctrines and ruled over a superior and racially pure society."[12] The downfall of this imaginary golden age was explained as the result of the interbreeding between the master race and the untermenschen (lesser races). The "abstruse ideas and weird cults [of Ariosophy] anticipated the political doctrines and institutions of the Third Reich"[13] writes Goodrick-Clarke in the introduction to his book, motivating the phrase "occult roots of Nazism"; direct influences, however, are sparse. With the exception of Karl Maria Wiligut,[14] Goodrick-Clarke has not found evidence that prominent Ariosophists directly influenced Nazism.Goodrick-Clarke considers the "Nazi crusade [as] ... essentially religious".[15] His follow-up book Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity examined 'ariosophic' ideas after 1945 and 'neo-völkisch movements'.*****The Nazis were aided by theologians, such as Dr. Ernst Bergmann. Bergmann, in his work, Die 25 Thesen der Deutschreligion (Twenty-five Points of the German Religion), expounded the theory that the Old Testament and portions of the New Testament of the Bible were inaccurate. He proposed that Jesus was of Aryan origin, and that Adolf Hitler was the new messiah.[25] The Nazis gloried in the ancient Teutonic and Nordic myths, especially as set to opera in Wagner's Ring Cycle. Hitler was always to be found in Bayreuth each year, and his Thousand Year Reich was the Christian Millennium brought by him to the here and now. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Mainstream churches seem to be aligning themselves with hardline conservative politics. This marginalizes and drives out people with more liberal political views--especially younger people. Perhaps when they've succeeded at driving out all liberals, the hemorrhaging will stop. ...........................................................That's like assuming that the driving out of infidels by Right Wing Muslims will lead to less hemorrhaging, when we can clearly see that it only leads to more. Perhaps that is what you meant to say in sarcastic fashion.
Damien the Leper Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 It was not I who made the comparison. I was objecting to the comparison. But if we are going to make the comparison, at least we should be truthful. And if people are going to make blanket condemnations of “organized religion” they should hold the alternatives to the same criteria. Or, at least, not compare the worst of one to the best of the other. Of course, it would be nice if the prejudicial term “organized religion” was relegated to the ash heap of history.Blanket statements do no good.
Damien the Leper Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 I can't imagine anyone reading that book more than once so kudos on that i guess. But exactly what Hitler was saying about God in that book is greatly debated, given his views later in life. Most historians believe that he was neutral to the idea of God and did not believe in the eternal existence of the soul. He also believed that most of life was just a fight for supremacy. None of his actions were predicated upon him trying to obey God or follow the doctrines of any belief system.We can never fully know. Experts can study Hitler and still not fully comprehend his rhetoric. The point is that based on the autobiography, you are wrong.
bluebell Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 We can never fully know. Experts can study Hitler and still not fully comprehend his rhetoric. The point is that based on the autobiography, you are wrong.No I'm not. It was not Hitler's religious beliefs that caused the holocaust. You can't blame it on religion.
california boy Posted April 21, 2015 Author Posted April 21, 2015 I cannot help but to think that your "happiness" is something you feel for a season but in the long run you will not find the eternal happiness and joy that God enjoys. I have read statistics that show that overall, gay relationships do not end up working monogamously over the long run. I think it is possible to actually love something and someone in a sinful way and have a measure of happiness. But, that happiness is short term and fades with time.Of course you would believe that. You are looking at my life from your point of view. There are many who would say the same thing about your life from their perspective. They can't help but think that your life would be happier if you left the Mormon church. 2
california boy Posted April 21, 2015 Author Posted April 21, 2015 Mainstream churches seem to be aligning themselves with hardline conservative politics. This marginalizes and drives out people with more liberal political views--especially younger people. Perhaps when they've succeeded at driving out all liberals, the hemorrhaging will stop. I also sense that for more people, the truth claims of traditional religions just don't seem all that compelling anymore. Blame it on science, the Internet, public schools, Charles Darwin, or Hollywood, it's still the same: if a religion teaches things as fact that somebody deep down knows to be fiction, it's going to be hard for him to stick around. About 80% of young people do not believe in the political mantra of conservative politics in America. It makes you wonder where churches will be in another generation if both the churches and the next generation follow the current path they are on. 1
Gray Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 I cannot help but to think that your "happiness" is something you feel for a season but in the long run you will not find the eternal happiness and joy that God enjoys. I have read statistics that show that overall, gay relationships do not end up working monogamously over the long run. I think it is possible to actually love something and someone in a sinful way and have a measure of happiness. But, that happiness is short term and fades with time. On the contrary, proper application of the principle taught in scripture should teach us that monogamous gay marriage is of God, because we can observe its fruits and they lead to happiness. On the other hand, no true Scottsman would ever be happy doing something you disagree with, so what do I know. 1
Sleeper Cell Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 About 80% of young people do not believe in the political mantra of conservative politics in America. It makes you wonder where churches will be in another generation if both the churches and the next generation follow the current path they are on. Pretty much the same was said about young people in the 1960s. … Then they grew up and elected Reagan.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) In Alma 41 it speaks about wickedness never was happiness. On the surface we may think some things make us happy even sinful things such as gay relationships, pornography, drugs, etc. But these things do not last but offer a false front to long term happiness.We are talking past each other, but I would like to make one last comment. Having been high once or twice in my life (on legitimate pain meds), and having viewed pornography in my younger years, I wouldn't describe either as a source of happiness. Porn and drugs are used to escape from the reality of life. They may bring momentary pleasure, but it is fleeting. I have never heard a drug addict or a porn user say that those things give their lives meaning and bring lasting happiness. Maybe I just don't hang out in the right circles though. When I hear people tell me about their long term gay relationships on the other hand, it is the opposite. I hear that they find deep meaning and satisfaction with each other. I find that they describe the feeling of joy and happiness that comes from having someone you love to share your life with. The sentiments they express are exactly the same ones I would use to describe the relationship with my wife. This is not a problem for me. I truly believe Christ when he said by their fruits you can know them. I truly believe Alma 32. I trust in the scripture that says wickedness never was happiness. King Benjamin said to consider the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. Joseph said that happiness is the design and purpose of our existence. These things testify to me that committed gay relationships are okay in the eyes of God. For you on the other hand, these relationships that bring such lasting happiness present a real problem. You have to tell yourself that they are not experiencing "true" happiness. You compare their long term committed relationships that provide all the meaning to their lives to the drugs that addicts use. You say their happiness will not last. So the question remains, How long does the happiness have to last for it to be real? Is 72 years long enough? Edited April 21, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding 2
Gray Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Pretty much the same was said about young people in the 1960s. … Then they grew up and elected Reagan. Reagan didn't start any major wars and didn't appear to oppose civil rights. Sounds like a hippie to me.
JLHPROF Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Reagan didn't start any major wars and didn't appear to oppose civil rights. Sounds like a hippie to me. Nah, he was just a celebrity. The more charismatic and famous politicians always win (esp. in the last few years). Being dull is a death sentence. 1
Gray Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Nah, he was just a celebrity. The more charismatic and famous politicians always win (esp. in the last few years). Being dull is a death sentence. Which is why I'll never be president.
Mormonmaniac Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 We are talking past each other, but I would like to make one last comment. Having been high once or twice in my life (on legitimate pain meds), and having viewed pornography in my younger years, I wouldn't describe either as a source of happiness. Porn and drugs are used to escape from the reality of life. They may bring momentary pleasure, but it is fleeting. I have never heard a drug addict or a porn user say that those things give their lives meaning and bring lasting happiness. Maybe I just don't hang out in the right circles though. When I hear people tell me about their long term gay relationships on the other hand, it is the opposite. I hear that they find deep meaning and satisfaction with each other. I find that they describe the feeling of joy and happiness that comes from having someone you love to share your life with. The sentiments they express are exactly the same ones I would use to describe the relationship with my wife. This is not a problem for me. I truly believe Christ when he said by their fruits you can know them. I truly believe Alma 32. I trust in the scripture that says wickedness never was happiness. King Benjamin said to consider the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. Joseph said that happiness is the design and purpose of our existence. These things testify to me that committed gay relationships are okay in the eyes of God. For you on the other hand, these relationships that bring such lasting happiness present a real problem. You have to tell yourself that they are not experiencing "true" happiness. You compare their long term committed relationships that provide all the meaning to their lives to the drugs that addicts use. You say their happiness will not last. So the question remains, How long does the happiness have to last for it to be real? Is 72 years long enough? We liv in a society that is diseased mentally and sociologically. No part of a gay relationship is wholesome nor is it okay in the eyes of God. He condemns such as immoral and against and contrary to his divine laws. Unless they change and repent they cannot attain the kingdom of heaven. This saddens and God, and should sadden us as mankind also knowing we are not pleasing Father in heaven. So, not really sure where the overall happiness is seen in a gay relationship. It certainly cannot last into eternity, it must have an end. If we as a society cannot see that then it shows us how bad our disease has become.
california boy Posted April 22, 2015 Author Posted April 22, 2015 We liv in a society that is diseased mentally and sociologically. No part of a gay relationship is wholesome nor is it okay in the eyes of God. He condemns such as immoral and against and contrary to his divine laws. Unless they change and repent they cannot attain the kingdom of heaven. This saddens and God, and should sadden us as mankind also knowing we are not pleasing Father in heaven. So, not really sure where the overall happiness is seen in a gay relationship. It certainly cannot last into eternity, it must have an end. If we as a society cannot see that then it shows us how bad our disease has become. I understand why you feel like this from your point of view. But the fact is, you are not gay. Nor are you in a gay relationship. So you really are in no position to declare whether a gay couple can find a very happy and fulfilling life, sharing it with someone they love and care for. I, on the other hand am gay. And I am quite happy in my relationship with my boyfriend. We have an amazing life together. One that I am thankful to God that I have found such a wonderful man to share my life with. 2
Brian 2.0 Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 We liv in a society that is diseased mentally and sociologically. No part of a gay relationship is wholesome nor is it okay in the eyes of God. He condemns such as immoral and against and contrary to his divine laws. Unless they change and repent they cannot attain the kingdom of heaven. This saddens and God, and should sadden us as mankind also knowing we are not pleasing Father in heaven. So, not really sure where the overall happiness is seen in a gay relationship. It certainly cannot last into eternity, it must have an end. If we as a society cannot see that then it shows us how bad our disease has become.i.e. "Sorry Seeking, I won't be answering your question."
Mormonmaniac Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 I understand why you feel like this from your point of view. But the fact is, you are not gay. Nor are you in a gay relationship. So you really are in no position to declare whether a gay couple can find a very happy and fulfilling life, sharing it with someone they love and care for. I, on the other hand am gay. And I am quite happy in my relationship with my boyfriend. We have an amazing life together. One that I am thankful to God that I have found such a wonderful man to share my life with. You may indeed feel truly thankful, but I know that God feels truly saddened.
ALarson Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) You may indeed feel truly thankful, but I know that God feels truly saddened.You cannot KNOW that God feels saddened that california boy is in a loving, fulfilling, and happy relationship. You can believe God feels this way, but you don't KNOW that. Edited April 22, 2015 by ALarson 3
thesometimesaint Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 Reagan didn't start any major wars and didn't appear to oppose civil rights. Sounds like a hippie to me. Reagan gave arms to Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran starting two of the wars we are still fighting. He started his run for President in Philadelphia, Mississippi with the theme of "states rights".
Mormonmaniac Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 You cannot KNOW that God feels saddened that california boy is in a loving, fulfilling, and happy relationship. You can believe God feels this way, but you don't KNOW that. This isnt about supposed relationships and how they make two people feel. The big picture is about how it fits into God's plan to save us from Satan's power. Homosexuality is playing right into the devils hand.
rockpond Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 This isnt about supposed relationships and how they make two people feel. The big picture is about how it fits into God's plan to save us from Satan's power. Homosexuality is playing right into the devils hand. Or we, as a church, are playing right into the devil's hand by condemning a group of people without a foundation of revealed truth. 3
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