Why Is Organized Religion Failing

[Mormonmaniac]

I thought one of the promises of the Savior was that if we trusted in Him our burdens would be lifted.  

 

 

 

 

 

Or how about the scripture in Nephi.  

 

 

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That sounds like a promise that religion should make our lives easier more joyful and more at peace if we embrace the gospel.  From your responses, it sounds like most people are disagreeing with this concept and this verse only refers to the next life?  And people are choosing to quit organized religion because without it, there is greater joy and happiness.  

 

Was that not the promise of religion as well?  Or am I misreading the scriptures?  

Wickedness never was happiness. Polls and statistics show that people who embrace their religious faith are the happiest in society.

[bluebell]

I disagree. This year we remember the centennial of the Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. The Holocaust. Ethnic and religious cleansing on Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Darfur. Rwanda. Islamic regimes. Saddam Hussein's massacre against Kurds and Shiite Muslims.

These are not secularly based atrocities.

 

The Holocaust was based on secular reasons.  The Nazis were not Christians (despite their use of the cross), and they did not kill anyone because of their religion (even Jews who had converted to Catholicism before the Nazis came to power were subject to the death camps).

[Mormonmaniac]

I had an interesting conversation recently with a young man (he's currently in college) regarding why he left the church.  He told me he's not against the Mormon church, but is opposed to ALL organized religion.  I asked him why and he replied:

 

"Jesus never had an organized religion on the earth, but just taught us to love everyone and live honorably. We can live the teachings of Christ and not attend church every week."

 

Then he went on to add this relating specifically to the LDS church:

 

"I also do not believe that there was a church of Jesus Christ that needed to be restored in these latter days  Christ had no officially organized church."

 

I thought that was an interesting angle and I could tell he firmly believes this.  He also said that many in college right now feel there is no need to be a part of any organized religion.

He must not of read his bible then because if he did study it he would have known that the church he himself established did indeed become organized before he was born in the flesh on earth.

[bluebell]

More homocide deaths have occured in the name of God than for any other reason. So much for free agency.

 

You'll find that very few religions have any kind of doctrinal believe in the importance of agency, so it's not really fair to judge a religion by a standard it never claimed to follow or believe in.

 

On the topic of who kills more-atheists or religious, i have found this article from Skeptiod very reasonable and informative.

 

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076

 

This paragraph particular is pretty spot on.

 

"And that truth, as I've said time and time again, is that people are people. No matter what segment of society you look at, you'll find good people and you'll find bad people. You'll even find, as has been said, that the line between good and evil cuts through every human heart. Certainly there are people in the news who kill in the name of religion, but just because they kill in the name of religion doesn't really mean they kill because of religion. The Islamic militants who cut off Nick Berg's head are not nice men who would have otherwise been his best friend, if it weren't for their religious convictions forcing them into this grievous act. They are base murderers, and they should be punished accordingly, I don't care whether they go to church or not. Killers don't really kill because of their religion. Neither does a lack of religious convictions cause one to run wild in the streets with a bloody axe and a torch. Religion is a convenient banner for many to carry, but there are plenty of other banners available as well, and if it wasn't religion, they'd do their deeds under some other justification, if they care to even have one. The real reason they do their evil deeds is that they're human. Humans are very smart, very capable; and when we want something, we generally find some way to get it, even if that means killing someone or committing genocide."

[Sleeper Cell]

More homocide deaths have occured in the name of God than for any other reason. So much for free agency.

CFR

[Storm Rider]

Everyone wants a God that shares his/her own values. I don't think there are any exceptions to that, at least among those who believe in a personal god. 

 

As to whose fault it is, I don't think blame needs to be assigned. It's just social evolution. 

 

Ahh, no.  Our Father in Heaven demands self-sacrifice; it is the the dying of oneself in favor of living in him that brings a more complete joy.  This process is not easy and it is painful because our pride and our ego are so strong.   It demands a willingness to step into the unknown through faith.  I don't know the God you describe; he is certainly not my Father in Heaven, bur rather a caricature of the living God.

[Storm Rider]

More homocide deaths have occured in the name of God than for any other reason. So much for free agency.

 

You might want to meet or at least come to know of Mr. Stalin.  

Edited April 20, 2015 by Storm Rider

[Damien the Leper]

The Holocaust was based on secular reasons.  The Nazis were not Christians (despite their use of the cross), and they did not kill anyone because of their religion (even Jews who had converted to Catholicism before the Nazis came to power were subject to the death camps).

I've read Mein Kampf a few times and Hitler would disagree with you.

[Gray]

Ahh, no.  Our Father in Heaven demands self-sacrifice; it is the the dying of oneself in favor of living in him that brings a more complete joy.  This process is not easy and it is painful because our pride and our ego are so strong.   It demands a willingness to step into the unknown through faith.  I don't know the God you describe; he is certainly not my Father in Heaven, bur rather a caricature of the living God.

 

Do you not want the kind of God you described here? Does that description of God run counter to your view of what is just and right?

[Sleeper Cell]

I disagree. This year we remember the centennial of the Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. The Holocaust. Ethnic and religious cleansing on Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Darfur. Rwanda. Islamic regimes. Saddam Hussein's massacre against Kurds and Shiite Muslims.

These are not secularly based atrocities.

 

The Nazi party was not a secular organization?  

 

IIRC, Saddam’s Ba’ath party was a secular, not a religious party. Wasn’t one of his highest ranking aides --- Tariq Aziz -- a Christian?  

 

I said that the primary sources of the death and destruction were secular, not that all the sources were secular.  The Armenian genocide was horrible, but the estimated 1.5 million dead pales in comparison to the 16 million killed during WW I (hardly a religious war), let alone the numbers who died in the Gulag.   

 

And as horrible as the religious motivated atrocities in Bosnia, Iraq, and Afghanistan were (and I have heard first hand reports from family members who served there), does anyone seriously believe that the numbers killed were comparable to the numbers killed during many of the secular motivated atrocities of the last 100 years?    

[Damien the Leper]

The Nazi party was not a secular organization?  

 

IIRC, Saddam’s Ba’ath party was a secular, not a religious party. Wasn’t one of his highest ranking aides --- Tariq Aziz -- a Christian?  

 

I said that the primary sources of the death and destruction were secular, not that all the sources were secular.  The Armenian genocide was horrible, but the estimated 1.5 million dead pales in comparison to the 16 million killed during WW I (hardly a religious war), let alone the numbers who died in the Gulag.   

 

And as horrible as the religious motivated atrocities in Bosnia, Iraq, and Afghanistan were (and I have heard first hand reports from family members who served there), does anyone seriously believe that the numbers killed were comparable to the numbers killed during many of the secular motivated atrocities of the last 100 years?

Honestly, I think comparison is pointless. Atrocity is atrocity no matter who and their motivation.

[Sleeper Cell]

Honestly, I think comparison is pointless. Atrocity is atrocity no matter who and their motivation.

 

It was not I who made the comparison.  I was objecting to the comparison.  But if we are going to make the comparison, at least we should be truthful.  And if people are going to make blanket condemnations of “organized religion”  they should hold the alternatives to the same criteria.  Or, at least, not compare the worst of one to the best of the other. 

 

Of course, it would be nice if the prejudicial term “organized religion” was relegated to the ash heap of history.   

[bluebell]

I've read Mein Kampf a few times and Hitler would disagree with you.

 

I can't imagine anyone reading that book more than once so kudos on that i guess.

 

But exactly what Hitler was saying about God in that book is greatly debated, given his views later in life.  Most historians believe that he was neutral to the idea of God and did not believe in the eternal existence of the soul.  He also believed that most of life was just a fight for supremacy.  

 

None of his actions were predicated upon him trying to obey God or follow the doctrines of any belief system.

[Storm Rider]

Do you not want the kind of God you described here? Does that description of God run counter to your view of what is just and right?

 

How is he not just and right?  What you want is some mamby-pamby genie in a bottle that soothes your guilt after humans consistently forfeit their spiritual inclinations for the desires of the carnal.  You are focused on instant gratification; it is what "I" want, what "I" think I need and to heck with the demands of family, community, nation, and world.  I just don't think that way leads to any degree of lasting happiness.  It is falls in upon itself from the weight of resulting in utter weakness of the being.  

 

When there is not resistance there is not created strength of character and good.  You seem to desire to fall into heaven by living a life devoid of self-sacrifice.  One never falls into heaven, but ascends by the grace of taking the Savior's offered hand.  I have seen what you offer many times before and it results in a zero sum game. I just never found it a very worthwhile trip regardless of how much others try to put lipstick on it and dress it up; it remains still just a pig.   

[Gray]

How is he not just and right?  What you want is some mamby-pamby genie in a bottle that soothes your guilt after humans consistently forfeit their spiritual inclinations for the desires of the carnal.   

 

My point is that your God is in your own image, just as much as the "mamby-pambie genie in a bottle" (your words, not mine) might be in the image of people who might believe in that sort of God (if indeed anyone does). 

 

You are focused on instant gratification; it is what "I" want, what "I" think I need and to heck with the demands of family, community, nation, and world.  I just don't think that way leads to any degree of lasting happiness.  It is falls in upon itself from the weight of resulting in utter weakness of the being. 

 

I am surprised to learn that I am focused on instant gratification. How long has this been the case?

 

When there is not resistance there is not created strength of character and good.

 

Lucky for you that your God happens to think exactly as you do on this matter! 

 

You seem to desire to fall into heaven by living a life devoid of self-sacrifice.  

 

I don't think that way, but what gave you that impression that this was my viewpoint?

 

 

One never falls into heaven, but ascends by the grace of taking the Savior's offered hand.  I have seen what you offer many times before and it results in a zero sum game. I just never found it a very worthwhile trip regardless of how much others try to put lipstick on it and dress it up; it remains still just a pig.   

 

My viewpoint I think leads to greater kindness, greater unconditional love (even while I personally fall short, as we all do). I'm not willing to put anything ahead of love, which is where I part ways with fundamentalism. 

 

My responses in blue, thanks!

Edited April 20, 2015 by Gray

[Calm]

If you re-read what I said, I never did cite that.

I didn't mean to imply that you were....I was just reminded of it and was suggesting it should not become part of the discussion.  

[california boy]

Wickedness never was happiness. Polls and statistics show that people who embrace their religious faith are the happiest in society.

Exactly.  So if wickedness never was happiness, then why are people leaving religion if it is because they are becoming more wicked and, according to this scripture, more unhappy?

 

I think of this scripture often.  I certainly am more happy and have a much richer life since I found a boyfriend and share my life with him.  It is hard to think that my relationship is wicked when it brings me so much happiness.  It reinforces to me that the path I am on is one that is right for me.  Either the scripture is wrong, and wickedness does bring happiness, or the choices I have made are not wicked even though the church views my relationship with my boyfriend as such.  

 

I don't want to make this thread about gay marriage.  So let's keep this focused on why people are leaving religion.  Could it be that those who have left religion are like me and have found a more fulfilling and happy life away from organized religion despite the scripture you quoted?  I have certainly heard that sentiment more than once from people who have left religion.

[california boy]

I think it all depends on how someone defines better.

 

If a person defines a better life as one where they are always able to do what they want, where they never have to sacrifice their own wants to take care of someone else, where they and their desires are the the ultimate authority as to what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', then no, religion does not promise a better life to them in the here and now.

 

I hope you are not implying that if someone leaves organized religion they no longer make sacrifices or become so self centered, that they only care about themselves.  I personally have not found that to be true.

 

When my boyfriend's brother was diagnosed with terminal bone cancer, he left his job and moved in with his brother.  He cared for him full time until his brothers untimely death.  A few years later, his father was diagnosed with cancer.  My boyfriend did the exact same thing.  Left his job, moved in with his father who was living in Indiana and cared for him until his father died.

 

Another friend spends one day a week volunteering with Project Open Hand, which is a project that helps provide meals for those who are unable to care for themselves.  I could go on with other examples of people who have left organized religion but are not the self centered individuals you seem to think is the reason for the choice to leave.  At one time, religion headed these types of efforts.  Now more and more they are non profits that have no connection with religion.

[bluebell]

I hope you are not implying that if someone leaves organized religion they no longer make sacrifices or become so self centered, that they only care about themselves. I personally have not found that to be true.

When my boyfriend's brother was diagnosed with terminal bone cancer, he left his job and moved in with his brother. He cared for him full time until his brothers untimely death. A few years later, his father was diagnosed with cancer. My boyfriend did the exact same thing. Left his job, moved in with his father who was living in Indiana and cared for him until his father died.

Another friend spends one day a week volunteering with Project Open Hand, which is a project that helps provide meals for those who are unable to care for themselves. I could go on with other examples of people who have left organized religion but are not the self centered individuals you seem to think is the reason for the choice to leave. At one time, religion headed these types of efforts. Now more and more they are non profits that have no connection with religion.

I'm not implying that. I am saying that for people who want to live a self centered life, religion won't have much to offer.

[Mormonmaniac]

Exactly.  So if wickedness never was happiness, then why are people leaving religion if it is because they are becoming more wicked and, according to this scripture, more unhappy?

 

I think of this scripture often.  I certainly am more happy and have a much richer life since I found a boyfriend and share my life with him.  It is hard to think that my relationship is wicked when it brings me so much happiness.  It reinforces to me that the path I am on is one that is right for me.  Either the scripture is wrong, and wickedness does bring happiness, or the choices I have made are not wicked even though the church views my relationship with my boyfriend as such.  

 

I don't want to make this thread about gay marriage.  So let's keep this focused on why people are leaving religion.  Could it be that those who have left religion are like me and have found a more fulfilling and happy life away from organized religion despite the scripture you quoted?  I have certainly heard that sentiment more than once from people who have left religion.

I cannot help but to think that your "happiness" is something you feel for a season but in the long run you will not find the eternal happiness and joy that God enjoys. I have read statistics that show that overall, gay relationships do not end up working monogamously over the long run. I think it is possible to actually love something and someone in a sinful way and have a measure of happiness. But, that happiness is short term and fades with time.

[Analytics]

Mainstream churches seem to be aligning themselves with hardline conservative politics.  This marginalizes and drives out people with more liberal political views--especially younger people.  Perhaps when they've succeeded at driving out all liberals, the hemorrhaging will stop.

 

I also sense that for more people, the truth claims of traditional religions just don't seem all that compelling anymore.  Blame it on science, the Internet, public schools, Charles Darwin, or Hollywood, it's still the same: if a religion teaches things as fact that somebody deep down knows to be fiction, it's going to be hard for him to stick around.

[strappinglad]

I get tired of the reference to all the killing by ' religion' . Please read a bit about Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, WW1 and WW2 all if which were NOT religious wars/ killing. Even a review of the pre-Muslim world shows how Islam tempered the violence of the time. The Christian world started hospitals and universities and many charitable institutions which made the world a better place, not a worse one. Christian philosophy properly applied allows men to become their better selves. When high-jacked for political purposes any religion can inspire horrendous acts.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I cannot help but to think that your "happiness" is something you feel for a season but in the long run you will not find the eternal happiness and joy that God enjoys. I have read statistics that show that overall, gay relationships do not end up working monogamously over the long run. I think it is possible to actually love something and someone in a sinful way and have a measure of happiness. But, that happiness is short term and fades with time.

Yes the old wickedness never was happiness except when it is, in which case the happiness you now feel is fake happiness and won't last because reasons. Just like we say follow the spirit, the spirit reveals all truth unless the spirit tells you something I disagree with in which case you are either lying or deceived by satan. Got it.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Mormonmaniac]

Yes the old wickedness never was happiness except when it is, in which case the happiness you now feel is fake happiness and won't last because reasons. Just like we say follow the spirit, the spirit reveals all truth unless the spirit tells you something I disagree with in which case you are either lying or deceived by satan. Got it.

So, no one knows the truth eh? We are all just left to be tossed around to and fro and let everyone account to their own pleasures? Got it.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

So, no one knows the truth eh? We are all just left to be tossed around to and fro and let everyone account to their own pleasures? Got it.

Just calling out the hypocrisy of your statement. If wickedness can really never be happiness, then someone that has happiness cannot be living a wicked life. Either words have meaning or they don't. You want to have your cake and eat it to.