Why Do Lds Leaders Teach Evangelics Are Modalists

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Substantia

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

[Calm]

Already didGod- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]

So everything that has substance is God?

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

So everything that has substance is God?

One being or substance . Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

and no since only ONE GOD exists

”The life appeared, we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the Eternal Life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.” 1 John 1:2 King James and we are in him who is the true even in his son Jesus, He is the True God and Eternal Life,” 1 John 5:20 King James

Jesus is that TRUE GOD according to scripture "ARMOUR UP"

Edited April 19, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC

[Flyonthewall]

How many human beings are there?

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

1 Timothy 2

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Only ONE MAN in GODHEAD

”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James “GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek page 288; The state of being God

[JLHPROF]

Jesus is that TRUE GOD according to scripture.

 

As with everything posted here, you mean according to YOUR INTERPRETATION of scripture.  We read things differently than you.  We also accept scripture that you don't.

[Robert F. Smith]

Is the Trinity OK when used by the LDS leaders

.................................................................................................  

Of course, but only when properly defined, and only when it is not used to further the work of the pagan Apostasy which mainstream Christianity embodies.

 

Your Trinity is a conglomeration of pagan Egyptian gods.  Of course, you have the right to worship false gods, and to defend them, as you are doing here.

[Flyonthewall]

1 Timothy 2

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Only ONE MAN in GODHEAD

”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James “GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek page 288; The state of being God

Not sure if you were addressing my question or not... but again... how many human beings are there?

Notice I did not limit it to the Godhead, but let's just say in the world today. How many human beings are there in the world today?

[Flyonthewall]

Perhaps you could be so kind as to point out where in these two links the speaker teaches that Evangelicals teach modalism...

I have read the links and must have missed it.

Just so you don't forget this was requested of you... afterall this is the heart of your assertion, right?

[Robert F. Smith]

Where ? and where in the Book of Mormon

James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.

"In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.

Elder Talmage was incorrect.  Unlike you, Mormons do not accept the false doctrine of infallibility.

 

See

Morgenstern, Julian, “The Mythological Background of Psalm 82,” Hebrew Union College Annual, 14 (1939):29-126.

Hamori, Esther J., "When Gods Were Men": The Embodied God in Biblical and Near Eastern Literature (de Gruyter, 2008).

Mullen, E. Theodore, Jr., The Assembly of the Gods: The Divine Council in Canaanite and Early Hebrew Literature, Harvard Semitic Monograph (Chico: Scholars Press, 1980).

Tsevat, Matitiahu, "God and the Gods in Assembly," HUCA 40-41 (1969-1970):123-137.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Freedom]

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

The date of 2 Nephi verse is 556 BC

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

So I establish that words critical to defining the trinity are not found in the bible and you quote scriptures that state that the three members of the godhead are one God. We fully accept that they are one God as the new testament defines it. They are one in purpose but very separate in being and in essence. Your argument is based on the false premise that 'one god' means trinity. 

[Freedom]

Substantia

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

Too bad they could not find this concept in the bible. 

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Many people who believe in the trinity admit they don't understand it or is a mystery.  So perhaps we might not accurately define it but we don't have to.  Even those who believe in it have a hard time defining their own doctrine.  Should we be expected to explain it better than those who actually believe it?

Is there a problem if you can't comprehend everything

Mosiah 4: 9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Many people who believe in the trinity admit they don't understand it or is a mystery.  So perhaps we might not accurately define it but we don't have to.  Even those who believe in it have a hard time defining their own doctrine.  Should we be expected to explain it better than those who actually believe it?

Is there a problem if you can't comprehend everything

Mosiah 4: 9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Too bad they could not find this concept in the bible.

Can be found easier in the Book of Mormon

but it's in the Bible also, in fact first chapter of the Bible

26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

notice ONE GOD and US and OUR as plural persons

Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech"

again in chapter 11

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

a man is ONE but has three parts also, body, soul and spirit

[mfbukowski]

Explaining the trinity is hard for pretty much everyone. I know two Baptists who are pretty heavy Christians, but don't really get it.

Nobody gets it, because it is a "mystery".

In other words it makes no sense.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Perhaps you could be so kind as to point out where in these two links the speaker teaches that Evangelicals teach modalism...

I have read the links and must have missed it.

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-modalism.htm

http://C***.org/heresies

[mfbukowski]

From your OP:

IOW, by your own admission, LDS leaders are not the only ones who have misrepresented the doctrine of the Trinity.

Misrepresented what no one understands?

How is that possible? If no one understands it to represent it correctly in the first place, all we can do is make a best guess, and make a feeble attempt at an explanation.

Edited April 19, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Storm Rider]

In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 18 under the heading John’s Testimony of the Personality of God Says “This accords also with the report of John’s baptism of Jesus: 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form?

President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord’s Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.’ ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antithetical

.......

(from Easton’s Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

 

I assume that when anyone mis-states the actual doctrines of another religion they are in error. I don't think it is surprising when it happens.  If we are going to claim what another religion states we should appeal directly to that specific Church's teachings.  I expect that if we wanted to find individual priests, preachers, etc. teaching modalism then we would find examples aplenty; however, just because a priest or a preacher teaches one thing does not make it their church's doctrines.  It only means that they themselves are in error.

 

If a LDS is going to teach about the concept of the Catholic trinity then LDS should quote from the catechism of the Catholic Church.  Conversely, it would be better to quote the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ rather than the teachings of any single individual.  To do so one need only appeal to the Church's website.  

Edited April 19, 2015 by Storm Rider

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost l, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time.to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

Is Jeffery R Hollands insulating that God is completely comprehensible to him ? The Book of Mormon would disagree.

Mosiah 4:9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

Notice how Jeffrey says single being "person" when we teach three separate persons.

God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]

Edited April 19, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC

[The Nehor]

I'm the Author but you can find a more complete article on my Blog

Your horse needs their hair groomed.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

I assume that when anyone mis-states the actual doctrines of another religion they are in error. I don't think it is surprising when it happens.  If we are going to claim what another religion states we should appeal directly to that specific Church's teachings.  I expect that if we wanted to find individual priests, preachers, etc. teaching modalism then we would find examples aplenty; however, just because a priest or a preacher teaches one thing does not make it their church's doctrines.  It only means that they themselves are in error.

 

If a LDS is going to teach about the concept of the Catholic trinity then LDS should quote from the catechism of the Catholic Church.  Conversely, it would be better to quote the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ rather than the teachings of any single individual.  To do so one need only appeal to the Church's website.

Lets do

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Juxtapose Joseph Smith JR

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

[Calm]

Think of the hair gel costs for that 'do!

[mfbukowski]

Elder Jeffrey R. HollandIn the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost l, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time.to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.Is Jeffery R Hollands insulating that God is completely comprehensible to him ? The Book of Mormon would disagree.Mosiah 4:9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.Notice how Jeffrey says single being "person" when we teach three separate persons.God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]

Synonyms for what?

How are they unified? What kind of substance? A rocky substance, fleshy substance, an oily substance?

Those words are meaningless unless modified by something else.

The essence of being human is being human. That is redundant. Spiritual substance is what exactly?

Those are all words that have no explanation.

[mfbukowski]

Can be found easier in the Book of Mormon :)but it's in the Bible also, in fact first chapter of the Bible26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."notice ONE GOD and US and OUR as plural personsGen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech"again in chapter 11 :)1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."a man is ONE but has three parts also, body, soul and spirit

So God has 3 parts too?