mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 SubstantiaThere were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonymsOh good. We are all one what also, we are all human, so the three are one just as we are then, right?Golly you must be Mormon!
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 So God has 3 parts too? Yes indeed The FATHER, The WORD and the HOLY GHOST Another explanation is found in Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Is there a problem if you can't comprehend everything :)Mosiah 4: 9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.Equivocation on "everything". Of course we cannot understand all the Lord understandsBut no one is pretending that we do.Clearly the Lord is smart enough to reveal what we are capable of understanding, or don't you think he can explain himself in our terms?
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Oh good. We are all one what also, we are all human, so the three are one just as we are then, right? Golly you must be Mormon! Mormon say 1+1+1 = 3 gods Trinitarians say 1X1X1= 1 GOD "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370) Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: " http://C***.org/what-trinity Edited April 19, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
Bobbieaware Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Synonyms for what?How are they unified? What kind of substance? A rocky substance, fleshy substance, an oily substance?Those words are meaningless unless modified by something else.The essence of being human is being human. That is redundant. Spiritual substance is what exactly?Those are all words that have no explanation.In light of your perspective, I'm curious to know how you'll answer the following questions; In the following verses from 1 Corinthians 12, we are instructed that "the Spirit" imparts various spiritual gifts to the members of the church and that the same Spirit enables the saints to work together as one body in a state of spiritual unity. Do you believe the Spirit spoken in the following verses has material substance? And if you do believe the Spirit has materiel substance, do you believe the Spirit can literally dwell within men 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Corinthians 12). Edited April 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Yes indeed The FATHER, The WORD and the HOLY GHOSTAnother explanation is found in Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. PenroseNow, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.Oh I see. Golly I don't understand why the Nicean creed does not just say that the three persons are three parts of one person.What part exactly is the Holy Ghost?I don't think that explains much, and I also think that is not in your catechism. 1
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 In light of your perspective, I'm curious to know how you'll answer the following questions; In the following verses from 1 Corinthians 12, we are instructed that "the Spirit" imparts various spiritual gifts to the members of the church and that the same Spirit enables the saints to work together as one body in a state of spiritual unity. Do you believe the Spirit spoken in the following verses has material substance? And if you do believe the Spirit has materiel substance, do you believe the Spirit can literally dwell within men 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Corinthians 12).Pardon the irreverent analogy, but it works well I think.Think of a baseball team. They all have one purpose, know the rules, and operate with "one mind"Of course God (a collective noun, like "family") operates in perfect unity, unlike mortal people.And yes, I have experienced being unified with others in making spiritual decisions, knowing and agreeing with others about who should be called to certain positions, etc., being of one mind with them.I think that is what that scripture means, given the generations of translations it has gone through from a culture so far removed in both space and time 1
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 On the other hand, it could be like "to one is given the gift of pitching, to another the gift of catching."We are all parts of the body of Christ, working as one, again, like a team, to use a crude analogy 1
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Material substance? Yes, I think matter and energy are interchangeable in a metaphysical view. And we all have spirits, it is said, which dwell within us, so there is no inconsistency
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Has our evangelical friend left a Catholic to defend the Trinity?
CCRW Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Holy Catholic of the Apostolic Creed ... I think is the right description It did strike me odd that he/she is not evangalist Edited April 19, 2015 by CCRW
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 Oh I see. Golly I don't understand why the Nicean creed does not just say that the three persons are three parts of one person. What part exactly is the Holy Ghost? I don't think that explains much, and I also think that is not in your catechism. Because the Nicean Creed teaches there three parts of ONE GOD not person
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 In light of your perspective, I'm curious to know how you'll answer the following questions; In the following verses from 1 Corinthians 12, we are instructed that "the Spirit" imparts various spiritual gifts to the members of the church and that the same Spirit enables the saints to work together as one body in a state of spiritual unity. Do you believe the Spirit spoken in the following verses has material substance? And if you do believe the Spirit has materiel substance, do you believe the Spirit can literally dwell within men 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Corinthians 12).So your point about material substance is that God is unified by a material/spiritual/energy like substance?I am ok with that,but then so are we unified with them withthe same "substance", because we also have a divine nature, if only a spark. That is actually the Mormon position, in perhaps slightly different words. 1
CCRW Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Holy Catholic, I fired up a thread for you, please share with us.
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Because the Nicean Creed teaches there three parts of ONE GOD not person It seems there is a typo there which interferes with your meaning. And make sure you are not misrepresenting Aquinas
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Holy Catholic, I fired up a thread for you, please share with us.Why not here? He/she can start her own thread
Freedom Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 I am still waiting for a definition from the scripture of essence, person and being. 1
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) I am still waiting for a definition from the scripture of essence, person and being.I am still waiting for a definition from the scripture of essence, person and being. Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: " 2 Nephi 31: 21And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. Alma 11: 44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. Mormon 7: 7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. The Testimony of Three Witnesses And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. Oliver Cowdery David Whitmer Martin Harris Doctrine and Covenants 20 : 28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ] Edited April 19, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 This has been explained to you over and over.This is a waste of time. You do not respond to questions, and keep repeating the same thing over and over, expecting a different answer.I need not go further to describe the problem.
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 This has been explained to you over and over. This is a waste of time. You do not respond to questions, and keep repeating the same thing over and over, expecting a different answer. I need not go further to describe the problem. TRUTH never changes do you expect truth to change ?
CCRW Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Why not here? He/she can start her own threadah, sorry, I wanted to learn about his/her beliefs, not this nonsense eta: also, it was a carry over from the pre-existance thread, not here Edited April 19, 2015 by CCRW
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 ah, sorry, I wanted to learn about his/her beliefs, not this nonsense eta: also, it was a carry over from the pre-existance thread, not here This might help my youtube account http://www.youtube.com/jesusisjehovah#p/u
Freedom Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 I am still waiting for definitions from the scriptures of those trinitarian terms. judging from your posts, you can't find any. 1
Bobbieaware Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) So your point about material substance is that God is unified by a material/spiritual/energy like substance?I am ok with that,but then so are we unified with them withthe same "substance", because we also have a divine nature, if only a spark. That is actually the Mormon position, in perhaps slightly different words.And so you make my point: The Spirit is what spiritually unifies the saints of God into one "body" known as the "body of Christ;" The Spirit is what unifies the saints into a state of oneness with God; and it is the same Spirit that unifies the the separate and distinct personages of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost into one Eternal Presidency we call God. And since, according to LDS theology, the Spirit is an actual life-giving substance and truth-revealing substance, it therefore follows that the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost AND the saints all enjoy the internal presence of the same divine substance. But I think you've resisted acknowledging this principle because you fear it partially tips the hand to the Trinitarians. But regardless of that fear, as I said, the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost and the saints all enjoy the internal presence of the same very life-giving and truth-revealing and very real and tangible substance known as the Spirit. Edited April 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Flyonthewall Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-modalism.htm http://C***.org/heresiesInteresting. I asked you to point out within the links you provide exactly where you think an LDS leader is actively teaching that Evangelicals teach modalism, and you provide links to the United Pentacosal Church, and CARM. I take that to mean you cannot provide anything to back up your statement, and therefore have made a baseless assertion.
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