HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 18 under the heading John’s Testimony of the Personality of God Says “This accords also with the report of John’s baptism of Jesus: 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form? President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord’s Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.’ ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antithetical James Talmage states: “This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40) 1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313 Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John. When Trinitarians believe that within the Nature of the ONE GOD are three separate persons ? Notice from reputable dictionaries and encyclopedias say we believe Three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE GOD [God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ] The doctrine of the Trinity in the godhead includes the three following particulars, viz. (a) There is only one God, one divine nature; (b) but in this divine nature there is the distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three (subjects or persons); and © these three-have equally, and in common with one another, the nature and perfection of supreme divinity. It was the custom in former times for theologians to blend their own speculations and those of others with the statement of the Bible doctrine. It is customary now to exhibit first the simple doctrine of the Bible, and afterwards, in a separate part, the speculations of the learned respecting it. (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.) TRINITY The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the “trinitarian formula” is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul’s Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14). (from Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers) Trinity used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias , first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person. (from Easton’s Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.) Edited April 19, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
Nemesis Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Are you the original author of the said work above or did you lift it off the net? Nemesis
Robert F. Smith Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 ................................................................................................................ the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, .............................................................................................................................................................At least you got one thing right: "the word trinity does not appear in the Bible." If the word is so important, how could that be? Because it is a pagan concept brought into Christendom as part of the Great Apostasy. You mention "hypostasis," and one might wonder why -- because that is part of the pagan concept of the Trinity so-called. Egyptologists Jan Assmann and the late Klaus Baer (among others) have maintained that the Christian Trinity and the notion of hypostasis was taken from ancient Egyptian religion. Klaus Baer (then of the Oriental Institute, Univ. of Chicago) said that Amon-Re-Ptah subsume all gods and that all gods are three, and three are one. According to him, the Christian Trinity was developed at Alexandria (Harry Wolfson agreed on the place, but maintained that the Christians got the idea more immediately from Philo Judaeus [Philo: Foundation of Religious Philosophy in Judaism , Christianity, and Islam]). Moreover, Ptah the Creator God/ Chaos (Memphis), is both male & female. All the gods arose from him, are joined to him, and are him. “The divine” is a monophysite substance and could be seen as one god, as in Coptic Christianity. Baer lecture at BYU (Provo, Utah), August 20, 1974. See Coffin Texts 80, II, 39. However, Jan Assmann argues for the expression of the Egyptian trinity or “triunity” at least as early as the Middle Kingdom, Search for God, 177-180,238-239. Cf. S. Morenz, Egyptian Religion, 253-257,351; John Wilson in Frankfort, ed., Before Philosophy (Penguin/ Pelican, 1957), 75, and Thorkild Jacobsen in Before Philosophy, 142-148, both from H. Frankfort, et al., eds., The Intellectual Adventure of Ancient Man (Chicago, 1946). See also James P. Allen, Middle Egyptian, 44-45. As the Mormons frequently say, this is a prime example of "the philosophies of men mingled with Scripture." 1
ERayR Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 18 under the heading John’s Testimony of the Personality of God Says “This accords also with the report of John’s baptism of Jesus: 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form?President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord’s Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.’ ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antitheticalJames Talmage states: “This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40)1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313 Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.When Trinitarians believe that within the Nature of the ONE GOD are three separate persons ?Notice from reputable dictionaries and encyclopedias say we believe Three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE GOD [God- Godhead- Substance- Essence-Being [ all Synonyms ]The doctrine of the Trinity in the godhead includes the three following particulars, viz. (a) There is only one God, one divine nature; (b) but in this divine nature there is the distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three (subjects or persons); and © these three-have equally, and in common with one another, the nature and perfection of supreme divinity. It was the custom in former times for theologians to blend their own speculations and those of others with the statement of the Bible doctrine. It is customary now to exhibit first the simple doctrine of the Bible, and afterwards, in a separate part, the speculations of the learned respecting it. (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)TRINITY The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the “trinitarian formula” is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul’s Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14). (from Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)Trinity used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias , first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2.That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.(from Easton’s Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.) Because a great many Evangelicals describe their beliefs in terms of modalism. 4
bluebell Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Because a great many Evangelicals describe their beliefs in terms of modalism. I have experienced this.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Because a great many Evangelicals describe their beliefs in terms of modalism.Yet a prime evangelical anti-Mormon website says this: Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity. Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Indeed, the New Testament exhibits no more than "triadic coordination" rather than a divine unity of three-in-one in the Gottheit.[1] In fact, LDS scholars David Paulsen and Ari Bruening argue for a social trinity in III Nephi.[2] [1] J. Bassler, AGod (NT),@ in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, II:1055. [2] Paulsen & Bruening, AThe Social Model of the Trinity in 3 Nephi,@ in Skinner & Strathearn, eds., Third Nephi, 191-233. Edited April 19, 2015 by Robert F. Smith
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 Are you the original author of the said work above or did you lift it off the net? Nemesis I'm the Author but you can find a more complete article on my Blog
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 At least you got one thing right: "the word trinity does not appear in the Bible." If the word is so important, how could that be? Because it is a pagan concept brought into Christendom as part of the Great Apostasy. You mention "hypostasis," and one might wonder why -- because that is part of the pagan concept of the Trinity so-called. Egyptologists Jan Assmann and the late Klaus Baer (among others) have maintained that the Christian Trinity and the notion of hypostasis was taken from ancient Egyptian religion. Klaus Baer (then of the Oriental Institute, Univ. of Chicago) said that Amon-Re-Ptah subsume all gods and that all gods are three, and three are one. According to him, the Christian Trinity was developed at Alexandria (Harry Wolfson agreed on the place, but maintained that the Christians got the idea more immediately from Philo Judaeus [Philo: Foundation of Religious Philosophy in Judaism , Christianity, and Islam]). Moreover, Ptah the Creator God/ Chaos (Memphis), is both male & female. All the gods arose from him, are joined to him, and are him. “The divine” is a monophysite substance and could be seen as one god, as in Coptic Christianity. Baer lecture at BYU (Provo, Utah), August 20, 1974. See Coffin Texts 80, II, 39. However, Jan Assmann argues for the expression of the Egyptian trinity or “triunity” at least as early as the Middle Kingdom, Search for God, 177-180,238-239. Cf. S. Morenz, Egyptian Religion, 253-257,351; John Wilson in Frankfort, ed., Before Philosophy (Penguin/ Pelican, 1957), 75, and Thorkild Jacobsen in Before Philosophy, 142-148, both from H. Frankfort, et al., eds., The Intellectual Adventure of Ancient Man (Chicago, 1946). See also James P. Allen, Middle Egyptian, 44-45. As the Mormons frequently say, this is a prime example of "the philosophies of men mingled with Scripture." Is the Trinity OK when used by the LDS leaders 1. Discourses of Brigham Young, p.30 The Holy Ghost, we believe, is one of the characters that form the Trinity, or the Godhead. 1. Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p.61 Now I repeat-the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he constitutes the third person in the Trinity, the Godhead 1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.312 In our Articles of Faith we declare our belief in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost-in other words, the Trinity. We accept the scriptural doctrine that they are separate and distinct personages. This is one distinguishing and, to some, disturbing doctrine of the Church. 1. James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.4, p.264 From these statements, and from many others that might be quoted, it is clear that Adam and Christ are two persons-not the same Person. It is erroneous doctrine to consider them one and the same person, for Jesus is the Christ, a member of the Trinity, the God-head, and to whom Adam, the father of the human family upon this earth, is amenable. Adam will have to account for his stewardship to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose blood atones for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam. James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.6, p.236 1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313 Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John. J. Reuben Clark Jr. Second Counselor to the LDS First Presidency speaking to diversified audience in the mid 1940s speaks of God in terms of the Trinity-God has revealed to us that he is the Father of all, and that he loves and cares forth righteous everywhere, and seeks ever to bring back the wayward to his ways. He has made known that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father, the Redeemer of the World, the First Fruits of the Resurrection. He has shown to us that as Jesus died, lay in the tomb, and was resurrected, so shall it be with every son and daughter of God. He has manifested to us that he is a person, that Christ is another person, and that the Holy Ghost is a third person, and that these make the Trinity of the Godhead Another explanation is found in Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.
CCRW Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) I want to know how/why the Holy Catholic can post images and I can not, some priesthood issue or some such? ok, skip that question ... different one ... how come its always a wall of text, or a giant picture? Edited April 19, 2015 by CCRW
Sleeper Cell Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Why Do Lds Leaders Teach Evangelics Are Modalists? So Evangelicals can better understand how Mormons feel when Evangelicals misrepresent Mormon doctrines. BTW, since all of the LDS leaders you cite in your OP are deceased (all but one having died between 30 - 80 years ago), shouldn’t your thread have been titled “Why did LDS leaders teach … -- rather than why do LDS leaders teach… ? ETA. And I see that you are now citing 19th century LDS church leaders to show what 21st century LDS leaders are teaching today. Edited April 19, 2015 by Sleeper Cell 1
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) So Evangelicals can better understand how Mormons feel when Evangelicals misrepresent Mormon doctrines. BTW, since all of the LDS leaders you cite are deceased (all but one having died between 30 - 80 years ago), shouldn’t your thread have been titled “Why did LDS leaders teach … -- rather than why do LDS leaders teach… ? Here's two live ones https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/eternal-life-to-know-our-heavenly-father-and-his-son-jesus-christ?lang=eng http://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/11/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng Didn't include these from my Blog http://thetruthaboutmormonism-creeksalmon.blogspot.com/2013/02/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-lds-telling.html http://thetruthaboutmormonism-creeksalmon.blogspot.com/2014/11/one-of-biggest-lies-mormon-leaders-teach.html Edited April 19, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
BCSpace Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Notice from reputable dictionaries and encyclopedias say we believe Three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE GOD [God- Godhead- Substance- Essence-Being [ all Synonyms ] I agree that many LDS misrepresent the trinity, but that doesn't change the fact that we strongly disagree with the proper definition as well. The trinity doctrine doesn't exist in the Bible. Plurality of Gods does. Edited April 19, 2015 by BCSpace 1
carbon dioxide Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Why make something complicated when the scriptures declare something to be so simple? The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in the exact same way that Jesus wanted his disciples to be one in John 17. No real need to go beyond that.
ERayR Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Yet a prime evangelical anti-Mormon website says this: Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity. Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Indeed, the New Testament exhibits no more than "triadic coordination" rather than a divine unity of three-in-one in the Gottheit.[1] In fact, LDS scholars David Paulsen and Ari Bruening argue for a social trinity in III Nephi.[2] [1] J. Bassler, AGod (NT),@ in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, II:1055. [2] Paulsen & Bruening, AThe Social Model of the Trinity in 3 Nephi,@ in Skinner & Strathearn, eds., Third Nephi, 191-233. I know that but it still remains that Evangelicals do present their views in moralistic terms.
carbon dioxide Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 I agree that many LDS misrepresent the trinity, but that doesn't change the fact that we strongly disagree with the proper definition as well. The trinity doctrine doesn't exist in the Bible. Plurality of Gods does.Many people who believe in the trinity admit they don't understand it or is a mystery. So perhaps we might not accurately define it but we don't have to. Even those who believe in it have a hard time defining their own doctrine. Should we be expected to explain it better than those who actually believe it? 1
mfbukowski Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 HolyPlease explain what essence or subtance or being means. 1
Ham Clam Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Explaining the trinity is hard for pretty much everyone. I know two Baptists who are pretty heavy Christians, but don't really get it. Edited April 19, 2015 by Ham Clam
Ham Clam Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Have you read 'Standing Apart: Mormon Historical Consciousness and the Concept of Apostasy' to get a Mormon reading of the Nicaea Creed? Edited April 19, 2015 by Ham Clam
Flyonthewall Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Here's two live ones https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/eternal-life-to-know-our-heavenly-father-and-his-son-jesus-christ?lang=eng http://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/11/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=engPerhaps you could be so kind as to point out where in these two links the speaker teaches that Evangelicals teach modalism... I have read the links and must have missed it.
Sleeper Cell Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 From your OP: It was the custom in former times for theologians to blend their own speculations and those of others with the statement of the Bible doctrine. … (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.) [emphasis added] IOW, by your own admission, LDS leaders are not the only ones who have misrepresented the doctrine of the Trinity.
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 I agree that many LDS misrepresent the trinity, but that doesn't change the fact that we strongly disagree with the proper definition as well. The trinity doctrine doesn't exist in the Bible. Plurality of Gods does. Where ? and where in the Book of Mormon James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods. "In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.
Freedom Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 There is this definition which, to me, is contradictory: The word "Trinity" comes from the Latin noun "trinitas" meaning "three are one." The Trinity expresses the belief that God is one Being made up of three distinct Persons who exist in co-equal essence and co-eternal communion as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I am not clear how one being can be three people. Three people are by their very nature three beings. Another definition I find is:The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Again, one being (a being is a person) in three persons (three beings). So the trinity is one being in three beings. One being is one being, just as one cookie is one cookie. If you triple the ingredients in a cookie, you do not have three cookies in one, you just have one large cookie. So how does the bible distinguish between a being and a person? It does not. Then there is this definition: The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God. So he is one in essence in three people. And how does the bible define essence? It does not. The word does not even appear in the bible. It is very telling that none of the definitions I find provide any scripture to back up their definition. It is all philosophical ramblings without any doctrinal support. They use terms that are not found in the bible so it is impossible to give any credibility to the doctrine. 1
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 Holy Please explain what essence or subtance or being means. Already did God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 I know that but it still remains that Evangelicals do present their views in moralistic terms. Chapter and verse from known Main stream Christian http://C***.org/heresies
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) There is this definition which, to me, is contradictory: I am not clear how one being can be three people. Three people are by their very nature three beings. Another definition I find is: Again, one being (a being is a person) in three persons (three beings). So the trinity is one being in three beings. One being is one being, just as one cookie is one cookie. If you triple the ingredients in a cookie, you do not have three cookies in one, you just have one large cookie. So how does the bible distinguish between a being and a person? It does not. Then there is this definition: So he is one in essence in three people. And how does the bible define essence? It does not. The word does not even appear in the bible. It is very telling that none of the definitions I find provide any scripture to back up their definition. It is all philosophical ramblings without any doctrinal support. They use terms that are not found in the bible so it is impossible to give any credibility to the doctrine.Mormon 7: 7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. 2 Nephi 31: 21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. The date of 2 Nephi verse is 556 BC Alma 11: 44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. The Testimony of Three Witnesses And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. Oliver Cowdery David Whitmer Martin Harris Doctrine and Covenants 20 : 28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. Edited April 19, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
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