Why Do Lds Leaders Teach Evangelics Are Modalists

[Flyonthewall]

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost l, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time.to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

Notice how Elder Holland uses the words of Trinitarians. I still don't see anything here to confirm he is teaching that Evangelicals teach modalism.

 

Is Jeffery R Hollands insulating that God is completely comprehensible to him ? The Book of Mormon would disagree.

Mosiah 4:9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

Notice the words YOU put into his mouth? Notice the BoM does not necessarily agree with you, but YOUR interpretation of it is totally opposite. If you take the BoM as a whole, then you will realize it does not teach the trinity, or modalism.

[

Notice how Jeffrey says single being "person" when we teach three separate persons.

God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]

Notice how Elder Holland states: "In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being..."...?

See how YOU proclaim Elder Holland to be teaching Evangelicals teach modalism when he repeats exactly the words of Trinitarians?

Edited April 19, 2015 by Flyonthewall

[Flyonthewall]

TRUTH never changes do you expect truth to change ?

I do not expect truth to change but the doctrine of the Trinity does not line up with the TRUTH. It may come close but then it adds philosophies of men to Spiritual truths that make God incomprehensible.

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Funny, how you would put life eternal out of reach for all.

It is also funny how you contradict trinitarianism - You say God has 3 parts, yet Trinitarianism says God does not have any parts. Trinitarianism also says God does not have a body, yet Jesus Christ has a body.

So... if I am to believe YOUR rendition, then I conclude that you believe in a contradiction of God.

[Flyonthewall]

Holy Catholic of the Apostolic Creed ... I think is the right description

 

It did strike me odd that he/she is not evangalist

What is even funnier, if holy catholic is indeed Catholic, and he/she is citing CARM as verificaiton of their assertions, it might suprise him/her that CARM regards Catholicism as heretical as Mormonism.

[mfbukowski]

And so you make my point: The Spirit is what spiritually unifies the saints of God into one "body" known as the "body of Christ;" The Spirit is what unifies the saints into a state of oneness with God; and it is the same Spirit that unifies the the separate and distinct personages of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost into one Eternal Presidency we call God. And since, according to LDS theology, the Spirit is an actual life-giving substance and truth-revealing substance, it therefore follows that the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost AND the saints all enjoy the internal presence of the same divine substance. But I think you've resisted acknowledging this principle because you fear it partially tips the hand to the Trinitarians. But regardless of that fear, as I said, the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost and the saints all enjoy the internal presence of the same very life-giving and truth-revealing and very real and tangible substance known as the Spirit.

I have no problem with that view, but a Trinitarian would never accept that we are part of the same substance as God.

They postulate that God has an entirely different nature than man, so much so that Christ supposedly had to have TWO natures, God and man

They believe a great gulf exists between the creator and the created, and that we could not possibly have the same substance, nature, essence, being, whatever.

[mfbukowski]

What is even funnier, if holy catholic is indeed Catholic, and he/she is citing CARM as verificaiton of their assertions, it might suprise him/her that CARM regards Catholicism as heretical as Mormonism.

HC is not Catholic

but uses that moniker to make the point that all Christians are part of the universal church.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

I do not expect truth to change but the doctrine of the Trinity does not line up with the TRUTH. It may come close but then it adds philosophies of men to Spiritual truths that make God incomprehensible.

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Funny, how you would put life eternal out of reach for all.

It is also funny how you contradict trinitarianism - You say God has 3 parts, yet Trinitarianism says God does not have any parts. Trinitarianism also says God does not have a body, yet Jesus Christ has a body.

So... if I am to believe YOUR rendition, then I conclude that you believe in a contradiction of God.

There is only ONE SELF-EXISTING GOD and yes none other will be classified as such

”The life appeared, we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the Eternal Life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.” 1 John 1:2 King James and we are in him who is the true even in his son Jesus, He is the True God and Eternal Life,” 1 John 5:20 King James

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

HC is not Catholic

but uses that moniker to make the point that all Christians are part of the universal church.

astute

[Flyonthewall]

There is only ONE SELF-EXISTING GOD and yes none other will be classified as such

Which one is that? God the Father? God the Son? or God the Holy Spirit?

Because as you know, the Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Flyonthewall

[ChristKnight]

While I don't think that LDS leaders teach that Evangelicals (or other orthodox Christians) are modalists, nor do I think that they intentionally misrepresent the Trinitarian belief (as mentioned, some orthodox Christians themselves sometimes end up incorrectly explaining the Trinity doctrine), I do often see that when it is being critiqued, modalism/unitarianism is being critiqued (i.e. "was Jesus praying to Himself?", "did Jesus ascend to Himself?"), and not what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches.  Trinitarians would agree with Latter-day Saints in stating that Jesus prayed to the Father, not to Himself, that Jesus ascended to the Father in Heaven, not to Himself, and that Jesus' baptism is a clear example of three distinct Persons.  Again, I don't think this is intentional.  

[thesometimesaint]

HC is not Catholic

but uses that moniker to make the point that all Christians are part of the universal church.

 

Except Mormons.

[Flyonthewall]

The way I see it, the LDS view of God and the Trinitarianism view of God walk hand in hand to a certain point...then they start to diverge around the substance/essence/being part, and the further it goes the further apart they become.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

The way I see it, the LDS view of God and the Trinitarianism view of God walk hand in hand to a certain point...then they start to diverge around the substance/essence/being part, and the further it goes the further apart they become.

Mormon godhead 1+1+1= 3 gods

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

Trinitarians 1X1X1 = 1 GOD

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: "

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

“The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]

[Bobbieaware]

The way I see it, the LDS view of God and the Trinitarianism view of God walk hand in hand to a certain point...then they start to diverge around the substance/essence/being part, and the further it goes the further apart they become.

Trinitarians readily admit the nature of the "one substance" that unifies the separate personages of Father,Son and Holy Ghost is a profound mystery. So I don't know why we Latter-day Saints allow ourselves to get drawn into debates on the nature of the Godhead with Trinitarians, when the Trinitarians proudly admit they don't understand what the substance is that unifies the personages of the Godhead. How is it possible to have a meaningful and productive debate with people who can't even define nor understand tthe terms of the subject that's being debated? Since the Trinitarians don't know, for all they know the Latter-day Saints could very well be proven to be correct in their understanding of the Godhead. The Lectures on Faith say there is a substance that unifies the personages of the Godhead so that the three separate personages are one God, and that substance is the uncreated Spirit of Truth -- the same Spirit tha unifies the saints with God and with each other.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Trinitarians readily admit the nature of the "one substance" that unifies the separate personages of Father,Son and Hily Ghost is a profound mystery. So I don't know why we Latter-day Saints allow ourselves to get drawn into debates on the nature of the Godhead with Trinitarians, when the Trinitarians proudly admit they don't understand what the substance is that unifies the personages of the Godhead. How is it possible to have a meaningful and productive debate with people who can't even define nor understand tthe terms of the subject that's being debated? Since the Trinitarians don't know, for all they know the Latter-day Saints could very well be proven to be correct in their understanding of the Godhead. The Lectures on Faith say there is a substance that unifies the personages of the Godhead so that the three separate personages are one God, and that substance is the uncreated Spirit of Truth.

Substantia

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God."

it's clear we know what substance means

Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

Edited April 19, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC

[Flyonthewall]

Trinitarians readily admit the nature of the "one substance" that unifies the separate personages of Father,Son and Hily Ghost is a profound mystery. So I don't know why we Latter-day Saints allow ourselves to get drawn into debates on the nature of the Godhead with Trinitarians, when the Trinitarians proudly admit they don't understand what the substance is that unifies the personages of the Godhead. How is it possible to have a meaningful and productive debate with people who can't even define nor understand tthe terms of the subject that's being debated? Since the Trinitarians don't know, for all they know the Latter-day Saints could very well be proven to be correct in their understanding of the Godhead. The Lectures on Faith say there is a substance that unifies the personages of the Godhead so that the three separate personages are one God, and that substance is the uncreated Spirit of Truth.

I have always found it interesting/funny that they claim it is a mystery and they don't understand it, but they know we cannot be correct...

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

I have always found it interesting/funny that they claim it is a mystery and they don't understand it, but they know we cannot be correct...

Mosiah 4: 9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

[Bobbieaware]

SubstantiaThere were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God."it's clear we know what substance means :)Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

What you're describing fits easily into the LDS theological construct. So then, what exactly is "the mystery of the Trinity" and why is it so mysterious?

Edited April 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Flyonthewall]

Mormon godhead 1+1+1= 3 gods

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

Trinitarians 1X1X1 = 1 GOD

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: "

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

Not quite complete - there is no mention of substance/essence which is the black hole of mystery.

LDS can agree with this as there is One Godhead that is comprised of three persons who are divine, individually God.

You also agree that the 3 Persons are each individually God, but then go on to contradict it by saying "but there are not 3 Gods, but only one God...". It is that contradiction that we disagree on.

Instead of saying there are not 3 Gods, we say there is one Godhead that is unified in purpose and testimony. It could be said that the substance/essence you refer to is purpose and testimony.

[Sleeper Cell]

Misrepresented what no one understands?

How is that possible? If no one understands it to represent it correctly in the first place, all we can do is make a best guess, and make a feeble attempt at an explanation.

 

Exactly. 

 

BTW, I wonder how Christians managed to get along for 200 years without having to use words like “trinity,” “substrantia,” and   "consubstantialia.“ 

Edited April 19, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[Damien the Leper]

Elder Talmage was incorrect.  Unlike you, Mormons do not accept the false doctrine of infallibility.

 

See

Morgenstern, Julian, “The Mythological Background of Psalm 82,” Hebrew Union College Annual, 14 (1939):29-126.

Hamori, Esther J., "When Gods Were Men": The Embodied God in Biblical and Near Eastern Literature (de Gruyter, 2008).

Mullen, E. Theodore, Jr., The Assembly of the Gods: The Divine Council in Canaanite and Early Hebrew Literature, Harvard Semitic Monograph (Chico: Scholars Press, 1980).

Tsevat, Matitiahu, "God and the Gods in Assembly," HUCA 40-41 (1969-1970):123-137.

Damn you, Robert. Now I have add this list to my already big reading list. Thanks a lot ya jerk!

[mfbukowski]

SubstantiaThere were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God."it's clear we know what substance means :)Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

Please. Ridiculous.

According to this an "oily substance" means the same as "an oily Godhead".

I don't think so.

[Vance]

I am still waiting for a definition from the scripture of essence, person and being. 

He can't provide one so he attempts to distract from that fact.

 

The truth is a person is a being so three persons equals three beings.  To get otherwise you have to use a special definition for a specific case.  Which is fine, IF you admit that you are using a special definition that only applies to your specific case, AND you don't foolishly attempt to flog others with your special definition.

 

So, let the foolish flogging continue.

[Vance]

Misrepresented what no one understands?

How is that possible? If no one understands it to represent it correctly in the first place, all we can do is make a best guess, and make a feeble attempt at an explanation.

A classic anti-mormon argument style.  "I don't know what it means, BUT Mormons are wrong".  I laugh every time I see this approach.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

What's interesting how not one Mormon has produced a document by Main stream Christians that teach we believe THE FATHER, Son and Holy Ghost are one person like this heresy teaches

•Modalism - God is one person in three modes.

•Monarchianism - God is one person.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Nemesis
Carm links

[Flyonthewall]

What's interesting how not one Mormon has produced a document by Main stream Christians that teach we believe THE FATHER, Son and Holy Ghost are one person like this heresy teaches

•Modalism - God is one person in three modes.

•Monarchianism - God is one person.

]

Why would we provide something like that? You are the one that made the assertion...?