What Is Destroying America? The Importance Of Traditional Marriage.

[ALarson]

Joseph Smith ordained an elephant to the Aaronic Priesthood. The increase in Netflix subscriptions has caused more people to leave the church than any other factor. The means of translation for the BoA was an etch-a-sketch. Those are my beliefs, there are sources, but CFRs will not be responded to.

Very funny  

 

Wonder if Mormonmaniac will agree?

Edited April 17, 2015 by ALarson

[Mormonmaniac]

I like the messages in this article, "Why Marriage and Family Matter—Everywhere in the World":

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/why-marriage-and-family-matter-everywhere-in-the-world?lang=eng

Yes, most excellent. I really like to see all religions coming together to stand in testimony for traditional families, marriage and morals.

[Mormonmaniac]

Very funny  

 

Wonder if Mormonmaniac will agree?

People can make fun and what not of why i chose not to provide a reference but it is one of those " 6 ¶Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6)

[Mormonmaniac]

To get back on track as this thread is getting sidetracked, I think it is well understood in our membership of the importance of traditional marriage and its effect on their children and the future of the world. So what should or could the government do to help strengthen the traditional marriage and traditional family? Is it okay for the government as a body to come out in full support of traditional families and traditional marriages?

[Brian 2.0]

People can make fun and what not of why i chose not to provide a reference but it is one of those " 6 ¶Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6)

Wait. Wait. I was just teasing around... but are you actually saying that you in fact do have a reference but you are not providing it because you deem us unworthy?

[rockpond]

I like the messages in this article, "Why Marriage and Family Matter—Everywhere in the World":

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/why-marriage-and-family-matter-everywhere-in-the-world?lang=eng

 

"It was remarkable for me to see how marriage and family-centered priorities cut across and superseded any political, economic, or religious differences. When it comes to love of spouse and hopes, worries, and dreams for children, we are all the same."

 

So true.

[rockpond]

To get back on track as this thread is getting sidetracked, I think it is well understood in our membership of the importance of traditional marriage and its effect on their children and the future of the world. So what should or could the government do to help strengthen the traditional marriage and traditional family? Is it okay for the government as a body to come out in full support of traditional families and traditional marriages?

 

This is what is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

 

Just thought you'd like to know.

[rockpond]

Wait. Wait. I was just teasing around... but are you actually saying that you in fact do have a reference but you are not providing it because you deem us unworthy?

 

I really think that Mormonmaniac is on here for comic relief.

[Mormonmaniac]

I really think that Mormonmaniac is on here for comic relief.

I am not having you trample it under feet. Why post a reference you wouldnt agree with or disbelieve exists? Its a waste of my time and everyone elses.

[rockpond]

I am not having you trample it under feet. Why post a reference you wouldnt agree with or disbelieve exists? Its a waste of my time and everyone elses.

 

Why would you post the reference?

 

1)  To give your statements (and yourself) credibility.

 

2)  To follow the board guidelines that you agreed to when you created your account here.

[rockpond]

I am not having you trample it under feet. Why post a reference you wouldnt agree with or disbelieve exists? Its a waste of my time and everyone elses.

 

p.s.  How would I "trample it under feet"?  If it's a solid reference, it will stand on its own.

[Buckeye]

p.s.  How would I "trample it under feet"?  If it's a solid reference, it will stand on its own.

 

Because his reference is a pile of salt that has lost its savor.

[pogi]

I am not having you trample it under feet. Why post a reference you...disbelieve exists?

 

Why post a reference that I disbelieve exists? Ummm...really?

 

What is so sacred about statistical data that can't be shared?  According to you it is already accessible to the public, so why hide it from us?  It's not like you haven't already told us the supposed results of the data anyway!  If it really exists and is credible, and your goal is to promote traditional marriage and families, shouldn't you be shouting it from the rooftops?  Believe it or not, I also support traditional marriage and families and would love to see your data.  I am not here to shoot you down, you have done a good enough job of that on your own. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by pogi

[Buckeye]

Mormonmaniac, if it helps, I've said things before which, when challenged for a reference, I realized I actually couldn't support. It took a little humility but I found it better to acknowledge that I overspoke and then move on. So if you have a reference, offer it up. If not, there's no shame in saying as much and allowing the conversation to move on.

 

Edit to add: And please please please don't CFR me regarding the time I admitted I didn't have a reference. Because, frankly, I'm not going to look it up for you.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Buckeye

[CV75]

Yes, most excellent. I really like to see all religions coming together to stand in testimony for traditional families, marriage and morals.

 

"It was remarkable for me to see how marriage and family-centered priorities cut across and superseded any political, economic, or religious differences. When it comes to love of spouse and hopes, worries, and dreams for children, we are all the same."

 

So true.

Referring to D&C 134, since government is instituted of God it is appropriate for its priorities to be congruent with marriage, which is also instituted of God. Marriage and family is the most fundamental form of government. Elder Perry speaks of the commonality of marriage and familial love across the globe, but the same applies across a community or nation. So wherever their priorities are aligned, government and marriage truly do enhance the “benefit of man.”

[california boy]

Referring to D&C 134, since government is instituted of God it is appropriate for its priorities to be congruent with marriage, which is also instituted of God. Marriage and family is the most fundamental form of government. Elder Perry speaks of the commonality of marriage and familial love across the globe, but the same applies across a community or nation. So wherever their priorities are aligned, government and marriage truly do enhance the “benefit of man.”

 

 

Of course there is a commonality of marriage and familial love that seems to be important to most humans.  What is it about being born gay that would change this very human need to form families and close relationships?  Just because you are gay doesn't mean you are void of all human feelings except sex for those you are attracted to.  Are we not all human?  Yet for some reason, religion has decided that gays should not have those very human yearnings.  And just because you are gay, you are not allowed to participate in this very human desire.

 

From the article you quoted.

 

Let me close by bearing witness (and my nine decades on this earth fully qualify me to say this) that the older I get, the more I realize that family is the center of life and is the key to eternal happiness.

I give thanks for my wife, for my children, for my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren, and for all of the cousins and in-laws and extended family who make my own life so rich and, yes, even eternal. Of this eternal truth I bear my strongest and most sacred witness in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

 

What part of that heart felt closing that Elder Perry expressed would not apply to someone simply because they are gay?

[Mystery Meat]

 

What part of that heart felt closing that Elder Perry expressed would not apply to someone simply because they are gay?

 

"...and, yes, even eternal."

[california boy]

"...and, yes, even eternal."

Well there is no gay marriage in the eternities either.  So what difference does it make if gays marry in this life???????????

[Mystery Meat]

Well there is no gay marriage in the eternities either.  So what difference does it make if gays marry in this life???????????

 

That's not the question you asked.

[CV75]

Of course there is a commonality of marriage and familial love that seems to be important to most humans.  What is it about being born gay that would change this very human need to form families and close relationships?  Just because you are gay doesn't mean you are void of all human feelings except sex for those you are attracted to.  Are we not all human?  Yet for some reason, religion has decided that gays should not have those very human yearnings.  And just because you are gay, you are not allowed to participate in this very human desire.

Yes, we are all human. We are all God’s children. The first complete human government was marriage, and marriage was the first form of government. Of course that is a religious perspective with traditional marriage as originally defined and organized. And as a government and covenant, it really has nothing to do with sexuality, which capacity as different for everyone as their fingerprints. It has more to do with transcending 9sometimes deeply) personal desires and choices to follow God’s will.

 

As much as we are the same, we are also different, and it is by the atonement of Christ that we are thus all brought together through His covenants (including marriage) and this is how He organizes and governs light and life.

 

What part of that heart felt closing that Elder Perry expressed would not apply to someone simply because they are gay?

None of it. Traditional marriage and family are the center of life and the key to eternal happiness for everyone. Anyone can be grateful for their loved ones, and anyone can enter and keep the covenants. In LDS belief, that can be accomplsihed in this or the next life.

 

Consistent with the topic of this thread, governments (including traditional marriage and family which are their earliest origin) can facilitate traditional marriage and protect religious freedom.

[california boy]

That's not the question you asked.

 

So basically Elder Perry's talk is only for the straight folk.   Yeah I am pretty used to that.  And the truth is, as soon as anyone in the church including Elder Perry starts talking about the plan of salvation they are only addressing the plan laid out for God's straight children. There is no marriage for gay couples in this life or the life to come.

[california boy]

Yes, we are all human. We are all God’s children. The first complete human government was marriage, and marriage was the first form of government. Of course that is a religious perspective with traditional marriage as originally defined and organized. And as a government and covenant, it really has nothing to do with sexuality, which capacity as different for everyone as their fingerprints. It has more to do with transcending 9sometimes deeply) personal desires and choices to follow God’s will.

 

As much as we are the same, we are also different, and it is by the atonement of Christ that we are thus all brought together through His covenants (including marriage) and this is how He organizes and governs light and life.

 

None of it. Traditional marriage and family are the center of life and the key to eternal happiness for everyone. Anyone can be grateful for their loved ones, and anyone can enter and keep the covenants. In LDS belief, that can be accomplsihed in this or the next life.

 

Consistent with the topic of this thread, governments (including traditional marriage and family which are their earliest origin) can facilitate traditional marriage and protect religious freedom.

I appreciate your post.  I think you, like me are trying to find some kind of path for a gay person to follow.  The plan of salvation makes so much sense if you are straight.  And when one embarks upon that plan which at its center is temple marriage and family.  It is the key to happiness both in this life and the life to come.  God's will is also the very best path for any person to live whether they are members of the church or not.  So as one lives this path here on earth they are richly rewarded with a life full of joy and happiness.  And if they are faithful they are promised unlimited joy in the next life.  Following God's will brings happiness.  Hence, the plan of salvation is often referred to as the plan of happiness.

 

Unfortunately this plan is not the key to eternal happiness for everyone.  If you are gay, and you "follow the will of God", then this life is a life filled not with joy and happiness, but one of loneliness, without temple marriage, and without family.  What is central to the plan for straight children is a total void for a gay person.  So when a gay person follows the "will of God" it is not a plan of happiness at all.  And even in the next life, there is no gay marriage.  So there is no eternal happiness either.  When the plan of salvation is presented from a gay point of view, it is not a plan of happiness.  I am not suggesting that there is anything you can do about it or anyone else for that matter.  But it does explain why gay couples want marriage so badly that they are willing to fight huge odds and seek their judicial rights in order to have it.  While there may not be gay marriage in the eternities, at least they can find happiness in this life.

[CV75]

So as one lives this path here on earth they are richly rewarded with a life full of joy and happiness.

No one, no matter how aligned they are with his path, experiences a “fulness” until after the Judgement.

 

this life is a life filled not with joy and happiness, but one of loneliness, without temple marriage, and without family.

For many this is the case. But everyone, no matter how impeded they are in entering the Lord’s path or realizing its full blessings in this life can stay on it in this life or enter it in the next and in both cases experience the “fullness” after the Judgement.

 

In Elder Perry's case, as with many others, he has tasted the fruits of enduring in the Gospel and of eternal marriage in this life. Some people have to, otherwise there would be no testimony of its truthfulness.

 

So when a gay person follows the "will of God" it is not a plan of happiness at all.

Impediments hamper those who are gay and straight alike, depending on their weakness.

 

And even in the next life, there is no gay marriage.

Eternal marriage is not defined as gay or straight marriage; never, ever was.

 

While there may not be gay marriage in the eternities, at least they can find happiness in this life.

“My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight…”

In Christ, there is no need to draw a line between gay and straight any more than there is a need to draw a line between one nationality and another.

 

While everyone's feelings and beliefs can be understood, how they act on them and which ones they prioritize to act upon may not be consistent with the Gospel or the covenants, or how the Lord strengthens and blesses them.

[Storm Rider]

I appreciate your post.  I think you, like me are trying to find some kind of path for a gay person to follow.  The plan of salvation makes so much sense if you are straight.  And when one embarks upon that plan which at its center is temple marriage and family.  It is the key to happiness both in this life and the life to come.  God's will is also the very best path for any person to live whether they are members of the church or not.  So as one lives this path here on earth they are richly rewarded with a life full of joy and happiness.  And if they are faithful they are promised unlimited joy in the next life.  Following God's will brings happiness.  Hence, the plan of salvation is often referred to as the plan of happiness.

 

Unfortunately this plan is not the key to eternal happiness for everyone.  If you are gay, and you "follow the will of God", then this life is a life filled not with joy and happiness, but one of loneliness, without temple marriage, and without family.  What is central to the plan for straight children is a total void for a gay person.  So when a gay person follows the "will of God" it is not a plan of happiness at all.  And even in the next life, there is no gay marriage.  So there is no eternal happiness either.  When the plan of salvation is presented from a gay point of view, it is not a plan of happiness.  I am not suggesting that there is anything you can do about it or anyone else for that matter.  But it does explain why gay couples want marriage so badly that they are willing to fight huge odds and seek their judicial rights in order to have it.  While there may not be gay marriage in the eternities, at least they can find happiness in this life.

 

I appreciate your post and your openness in sharing your feelings.  Thank you.

 

The second paragraph where you discuss how painful the plan of salvation is viewed by our gay brothers and sisters assumes that there is no "change" no purification of all of God's children regardless of their mortal sexual attraction.  I think in so many ways we have a very limited idea or vision of what Exaltation will actually look like.  I tend to think that the general concept of most LDS conceive is similar to the old TV sitcom, "Father Knows Best"; everything is idealized and we are all siting around the fireplace with our families singing songs.  It seems too shallow and barely scratches the surface of what Exaltation means.

 

First and foremost, before family, we are individuals.  As individuals, our first relationship is with our Father.  That should always be our primary relationship; not only in this life, but in all eternity.  After God comes our commitment to our spouse and then our family.  

 

I propose to you that you may be judging on a false set of assumptions.  To follow the will of God is to put our faith wholly in him and that he knows best for us; his perspective is eternal and not just this mortal existence.  He knows you better than you know yourself and he understands what will bring you eternal joy; a joy and peace unknown here on earth.

 

You may reject the concept of Exaltation as you understand it, but I think your perception is skewed, incomplete, and lacking in understanding....which is the same for each of us.  The problem is that you have drawn a line and assumed that God does not know you and does not know what will really be joyful.  Don't be too quick in your judgment.  There is room to continue to have faith in God and let him take care of Exaltation.   

[california boy]

I appreciate your post and your openness in sharing your feelings.  Thank you.

 

The second paragraph where you discuss how painful the plan of salvation is viewed by our gay brothers and sisters assumes that there is no "change" no purification of all of God's children regardless of their mortal sexual attraction.  I think in so many ways we have a very limited idea or vision of what Exaltation will actually look like.  I tend to think that the general concept of most LDS conceive is similar to the old TV sitcom, "Father Knows Best"; everything is idealized and we are all siting around the fireplace with our families singing songs.  It seems too shallow and barely scratches the surface of what Exaltation means.

 

First and foremost, before family, we are individuals.  As individuals, our first relationship is with our Father.  That should always be our primary relationship; not only in this life, but in all eternity.  After God comes our commitment to our spouse and then our family.  

 

I propose to you that you may be judging on a false set of assumptions.  To follow the will of God is to put our faith wholly in him and that he knows best for us; his perspective is eternal and not just this mortal existence.  He knows you better than you know yourself and he understands what will bring you eternal joy; a joy and peace unknown here on earth.

 

You may reject the concept of Exaltation as you understand it, but I think your perception is skewed, incomplete, and lacking in understanding....which is the same for each of us.  The problem is that you have drawn a line and assumed that God does not know you and does not know what will really be joyful.  Don't be too quick in your judgment.  There is room to continue to have faith in God and let him take care of Exaltation.   

 

Thank you for your post.  I completely agree with you.  I have always believe that I should put my trust in God. I have carried two scriptures in my heart from a very early age when I first realized that my feelings were not in sync with what the church tells me to do.

Proverbs 3:5-6 ⁵ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

⁶ In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

And D & C 6:36

Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.

 

 

 

 

Unlike most members, I knew I had to trust God more than most.  I had to do what I felt was right and what I felt would give me a rich and fulfilling life while here on earth.  I, of course, have made decisions that are different than most members have had to make.  Many members condemn me for the decisions I have made.  Many even feel that I have abandoned my religion and some have condemned me to outer darkness.  But through all of this, the one thing I have always still felt is the Spirit.  Perhaps that is why I have not abandoned God like so many that have left the church.  

 

Like you, I have no idea what is in store for me when I die.  Perhaps God will thrust me to outer darkness.  Perhaps there will be a magic wand and I will forget a lifetime of being attracted to men, and all the sudden want to spend eternity with a woman.  While that idea repels me now, I don't know what my feelings will be in the eternities.  Or perhaps God is ok with two men eternally bound to do His work.  We certainly know that male gods worked together to create this earth.

 

For most members, they can rely on the leaders of the church to give them revealed direction.  The answers that await me have not been revealed.  Unfortunately the only way of finding the answers to those questions at this time is to die.  I am not quite ready for that step.  

 

I appreciate your words of encouragement to trust God rather than pretending that you have answers to questions that do not have answers at this time.  I don't reject the concept of Exaltation, I only reject the current teachings on it for gay members.

Edited April 19, 2015 by california boy