Uchtdorf On Grace

[Mystery Meat]

I suppose I disagree with your understanding of what President Uchtdorf was saying.  It's hard to argue that when he says "salvation isn't bought with the currency of obedience, but bought with the blood of the Son of God" that our obedience guarantees us something.  Uchtdorf said that we follow God's commandments as a manifestation of our love for Him, not to earn something.  Of course goodness follows when we do good and follow God, but we aren't gaining salvation or changing our eternal destination through our actions.

 

I loved this talk because it completely counteracted (in my opinion) the over-emphases on obedience that I got at BYU-I and on my mission.  In those atmospheres obedience is how we obtain approval in the sight of God, and become "worthy, when according to Uchtdorf's message, Jesus already bought our salvation.  We are then obedient to show gratitude and love.  And, of course, it improves our lives.

 

I will share something I learned in personal reflection not to long ago that I think illustrates the point.

 

God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. I believe that statement is true. However, when we are striving to do what is right, God does not view us as the sum total of our sins. Thanks to the Atonement of Jesus Christ (which makes grace possible), God is able to see us through the lens of the Atonement. In other words, He sees us for our divine potential. As we strive to keep the commandments we are blessed. That striving does not usually amount to much. His grace is enough where we will inevitably fail.

 

But make no mistake, without some measure of effort on our part there is no salvation. Without grace we are damned in eternity. God's commandments are not there just for the fun of it. They actually have meaning and value and impose obligations on us, especially when we have made covenants. 

[Dando]

Just accepting Christ to receive salvation through him requires some obedience to law.  You cannot separate our obedience and Christ's grace.  And neither did Pres. Uchtdorf.

 

And frankly, if President Uchtdorf DID mean what you are saying here (and he DID NOT) he would be completely wrong.

 

No one is attempting to seperate grace from obedience.  We're merely trying to properly define their role in terms of salvation.  It's a horse and cart discussion.  I believe Uchtdorf was putting the horse of grace before the cart of obedience and it appears you want to put them beside one another.

[JLHPROF]

No one is attempting to seperate grace from obedience.  We're merely trying to properly define their role in terms of salvation.  It's a horse and cart discussion.  I believe Uchtdorf was putting the horse of grace before the cart of obedience and it appears you want to put them beside one another.

 

I would like to hear your definition of what "grace" is then, based on scripture.  Not how you think it is applied to us, but just what it actually is.

[Calm]

"Salvation can not be bought by the currency of obedience. It is purchased by the blood of God." - President Uchtdorf

 

How is it that in some cases we "pay" 10% when President Uchtdorf says that our obedience is the wrong currency?

Pure obedience is an expression of love (there is a lesser form of obedience out of fear).  One is not paying for salvation, but expressing one's acceptance of the gift and of one's love for God by doing what he has commanded us to do.

 

Grace was offered to us from the beginning of the earth and before.  But in regards to ourselves, it is put into action by God when we act to accept it (a work) by acting on his commandments. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I suppose I disagree with your understanding of what President Uchtdorf was saying. It's hard to argue that when he says "salvation isn't bought with the currency of obedience, but bought with the blood of the Son of God" that our obedience guarantees us something. Uchtdorf said that we follow God's commandments as a manifestation of our love for Him, not to earn something. Of course goodness follows when we do good and follow God, but we aren't gaining salvation or changing our eternal destination through our actions.

I loved this talk because it completely counteracted (in my opinion) the over-emphases on obedience that I got at BYU-I and on my mission. In those atmospheres obedience is how we obtain approval in the sight of God, and become "worthy, when according to Uchtdorf's message, Jesus already bought our salvation. We are then obedient to show gratitude and love. And, of course, it improves our lives.

Spot on, that is the meaning of Grace. It is a gift, we don't pay for gifts when people give them to us. That would be insulting to the giver. Plus HF wants us to do things for no other reason than from gratitude and love for Him, not to earn something, IMO.

Pres. Uchtdorf was revolutionary to have made that statement that Grace is the blood of Christ, and cannot be bought through obedience. HF will judge for disobedience but that a totally separate case, IMO.

[Dando]

I would like to hear your definition of what "grace" is then, based on scripture.  Not how you think it is applied to us, but just what it actually is.

 

Grace is a free gift that is given without merit. By definition it can't be earned.  Grace is opposed to earning but not effort.

 

I think Ephesians 2:8-10 expresses the correct understanding of grace and obedience:

 

⁸ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast. ¹⁰ For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

Uchtdorf's talk lined up with this perfectly. Salvation is a free gift of God.  Because we are saved we do good works.

[Calm]

It is a gift, we don't pay for gifts when people give them to us. That would be insulting to the giver. 

 

 

A gift that sits neglected and unopened on the shelf…is that insulting in your view?

[Mystery Meat]

Grace is a free gift that is given without merit. By definition it can't be earned.  Grace is opposed to earning but not effort.

 

I think Ephesians 2:8-10 expresses the correct understanding of grace and obedience:

 

⁸ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast. ¹⁰ For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

Uchtdorf's talk lined up with this perfectly. Salvation is a free gift of God.  Because we are saved we do good works.

 

His talk did line up with that scripture you are correct. But nothing that has been said in this thread contradicts that.

[Tacenda]

A gift that sits neglected and unopened on the shelf…is that insulting in your view?

Absolutely.

[JLHPROF]

Grace is a free gift that is given without merit. By definition it can't be earned.  Grace is opposed to earning but not effort.

 

I think Ephesians 2:8-10 expresses the correct understanding of grace and obedience:

 

⁸ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast. ¹⁰ For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

Uchtdorf's talk lined up with this perfectly. Salvation is a free gift of God.  Because we are saved we do good works.

 

So Grace is a free gift that is given without merit.  100% agree.

Did this gift have a beginning?  An end?  A cause?

 

You stated:

 

I believe Uchtdorf was putting the horse of grace before the cart of obedience and it appears you want to put them beside one another.

 

I don't believe Pres. Uchtdorf did any such thing. 

 

Helaman 12:24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works.

(The first section is how Grace is offered that brings us to Christ.  The second is how we according to our works and repentance and receive more grace after accepting Christ).

 

God grants without any price (grace) that we might be brought unto repentance and good works.

This restores us unto grace according to our works.

 

Don't you see - grace is NOT an event or a onetime gift.  It is given before we accept Christ that we might be prompted to the good work and repentance and the acceptance of Christ.  This is what Pres. Uchtdorf referred to.

It is also there to support us as we increase our good works and receive blessings and make up the difference.

 

It is NOT a cart and horse.  It is the two sided coin of justification.  Faith and works combined.  Grace and obedience.

Salvation cannot be claimed by anyone who does not obey the requirement to accept Christ as Savior.  Grace offers that gift before we accept him AND makes up the difference after.

Edited April 8, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Dando]

Don't you see - grace is NOT an event or a onetime gift.  It is given before we accept Christ that we might be prompted to the good work and repentance and the acceptance of Christ.  This is what Pres. Uchtdorf referred to.

It is also there to support us as we increase our good works and receive blessings and make up the difference.

 

 

I DO see that. It is through grace that we are able to do good works.  That's why I pointed out Ephesians 2:8-10

We might be arguing a distinction that has no difference. Do you believe that we can do good works that are applied to our salvation before we are saved? Do you think our good works aid our salvation or our sanctification?

[JLHPROF]

I DO see that. It is through grace that we are able to do good works.  That's why I pointed out Ephesians 2:8-10

We might be arguing a distinction that has no difference. Do you believe that we can do good works that are applied to our salvation before we are saved? Do you think our good works aid our salvation or our sanctification?

 

I believe that the work that brings us salvation is accepting Christ (and if we want salvation in the Celestial kingdom we must also be baptized in his name).  That is the extent of works needed for salvation.  Once they are complete it is entirely the grace of God that actually saves us by paying the price of sin.  But we have to accept him to get that.

 

Therefore there are works that are applied to our salvation before we are "saved".

 

Our good works after entering into this salvation contract are done grace upon grace to bring about more sanctification and more blessings, to bring us closer to the presence of God and potentially to become like God.

 

Honestly, it goes grace -> obedience -> grace -> obedience -> grace -> obedience.

Totally a chicken and the egg thing, especially since we don't have all the information on our premortal existence.

Who knows where grace and obedience began or end?

[Dando]

I believe that the work that brings us salvation is accepting Christ (and if we want salvation in the Celestial kingdom we must also be baptized in his name).  That is the extent of works needed for salvation.  Once they are complete it is entirely the grace of God that actually saves us by paying the price of sin.  But we have to accept him to get that.

 

What is the "work" that must be done to "accept Christ"?  Is it just accepting the gift through an affirmation of belief or must we do things like tithe, and live the Word of Wisdom, and act charitably?

[teddyaware]

Grace is a free gift that is given without merit. By definition it can't be earned.  Grace is opposed to earning but not effort.

 

I think Ephesians 2:8-10 expresses the correct understanding of grace and obedience:

 

⁸ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast. ¹⁰ For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

Uchtdorf's talk lined up with this perfectly. Salvation is a free gift of God.  Because we are saved we do good works.

 

I don't believe it's as simple as saying we do good works "because we are saved." In the Bible, there are a great many exhortations to the already saved to not be slothful in living and applying Gospel principles but to diligently move forward in the faith unto obtaining eventual spiritual perfection. Such exhortations to the already saved saints to grow in grace, knowledge and diligence would be wholly unnecessary if the saved automatically do good works as an inevitable and irresistible consequence of being saved. Even the fully converted Apostle Paul knew even though he was saved there was still a great work for him to do before he could fully obtain all the spiritual blessing promised to the faithful by virtue of the atonement of the Saviour:

 

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, IF that I MAY apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and REACHING forth unto those things which are before,

14 I PRESS toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Philippians 3)

 

Confusion on this point of doctrine comes when it's not understood that we are saved by grace in two basic ways: We are first saved through justification by grace, which centers on the principle of obtaining and retaining a forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ and repentance; And we are also saved through sanctification by grace, which centers on the principle of ever growing in the gifts, powers and holy attributes of God. In the above quote from Paul, it is to the doctrine of sanctification by grace that he speaks as he encourages the saints to not rest on the laurels of their past successes and triumphs in Christ  but to consciously strive to move ever forward unto the obtaining of all the gifts, powers and blessings God offers to man by virtue of Christ's perfect sacrifice. Very simply, what all of this ultimately boils down to is that it is possible to be saved but not exalted, as the Saviour makes clear in the 76th section of the Doctrine & Covenants. Speaking of those who inherit the terrestrial kingdom of glory, we are told:

 

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. (D&C 76)

 

So it's possible indeed to be saved by grace while not being fully exalted by grace. Which is why Christ admonished the already saved (justified) members of the Church when He said, "to him who overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I overcame and am sat down with my Father in His throne. (Revelation 3)

 

 

Edited April 8, 2015 by teddyaware

[Calm]

We are changed by our acts...we learn through them, reinforce some aspects of ourselves, diminish others. God gives us opportunities to open ourselves up to salvation...all our history of acts (what is done to us and what we do) and understanding and being are what brings us to hunger for a connection with God. Much of that is supplied by God but if all of it were, what would be meaningful about our surrender to him?

[JLHPROF]

What is the "work" that must be done to "accept Christ"?  Is it just accepting the gift through an affirmation of belief or must we do things like tithe, and live the Word of Wisdom, and act charitably?

 

Ah, now that is the question.

The only work I believe must be done to fully accept Christ and his salvation is Baptism.

 

D&C 76

Celestial salvation (those who both believe AND do the works)

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

 

Terrestrial salvation (those who are taught to believe but refuse the works):

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

 

Telestial salvation (those who are left with no choice but to believe)

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

 

This is how we work out our own salvation.

Phillipians 2:10-12 (see also Romans 14)

¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

¹² Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

And Christ said the only ones who aren't saved:

^{John 17: 12} While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

They are the ones who refuse to believe and accept Christ after having him revealed.

D&C 76:43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

 

4 out of 4 have the offering of grace.

3 out of 4 are saved by accepting the gift of grace.

1 out of 4 perform the works God has asked and receive grace upon grace.

 

Which are we?

Joseph Smith: “The question is frequently asked, ‛Can we not be saved without going through with all these ordinances?’ I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation … Any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.” (Teachings, p. 331.)

Edited April 8, 2015 by JLHPROF

[mormonnewb]

Some of you may not think that President Uchtdorf was saying anything new, but HE sure thought so:

"However, I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase “after all we can do.” We must understand that “after” does not equal “because.”"

To be clear, when he says, "I wonder," he isn't REALLY wondering. It's a rhetorical device -- a kind way of saying, "You've got it all wrong, you big dummies!"

At least, in HIS mind, he was giving an important clarification of doctrine that he thought many would consider "new." In fact, here's how he closed the talk:

"I pray that we will see with NEW eyes and a NEW heart the eternal significance of the Savior’s atoning sacrifice ..."

Perhaps, what he was saying was "old hat" to the Scriptorian class, but he seems to think that some of us commoners would receive a new understanding of grace.

[duffman]

Ah, now that is the question.

The only work I believe must be done to fully accept Christ and his salvation is Baptism.

 

D&C 76

Celestial salvation (those who both believe AND do the works)

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

 

Terrestrial salvation (those who are taught to believe but refuse the works):

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

 

Telestial salvation (those who are left with no choice but to believe)

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

 

This is how we work out our own salvation.

Phillipians 2:10-12 (see also Romans 14)

¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

¹² Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

And Christ said the only ones who aren't saved:

^{John 17: 12} While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

They are the ones who refuse to believe and accept Christ after having him revealed.

D&C 76:43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

 

4 out of 4 have the offering of grace.

3 out of 4 are saved by accepting the gift of grace.

1 out of 4 perform the works God has asked and receive grace upon grace.

 

Which are we?

Joseph Smith: “The question is frequently asked, ‛Can we not be saved without going through with all these ordinances?’ I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation … Any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.” (Teachings, p. 331.)

 

 

So, is it fair to say then that you don't believe anything but baptism is necessary for exaltation?  That's an interesting thought.  Baptism certainly holds the deepest symbolism (at least in my mind) of rebirth in Christ; more so than other ordinances, even those done in the temple.

 

So I ask with Dando, then what is necessary? Some people have told me that we need to follow all the do's and dont's outlined by the current church.  Including no coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, only one earing in the ear for women, none for men, no tattoos, no piercings, no bare shoulders or skin above the knee for women, garments worn at all times both night and day, no spending money on Sundays, read scriptures/pray morning and night, FHE, attend all church meetings, magnify your calling, tithing, attend the temple, family history, HT/VT etc....  There are lots of things I've often felt were necessary to do in order to be worthy of the spirit... this is how I was always taught.  Going on a mission only exacerbated this line of thinking, as well as attending BYU-I.

 

It may not seem significant to some, but to me Uchtdorfs message refuted the message that perfect obedience to the church ought to be our pursuit.  It was wonderful.

[JLHPROF]

So, is it fair to say then that you don't believe anything but baptism is necessary for exaltation? 

 

Not at all.  Only baptism is necessary for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.  Exaltation is an entirely different issue.

[Rivers]

Not at all. Only baptism is necessary for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. Exaltation is an entirely different issue.

Yeah. It's my understanding that baptism will get you into the lower portion of the celestial Kingdom, the endowment gets you to the middle, and eternal marriage gets you to the top.

[Rivers]

Some of you may not think that President Uchtdorf was saying anything new, but HE sure thought so:

"However, I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase “after all we can do.” We must understand that “after” does not equal “because.”"

To be clear, when he says, "I wonder," he isn't REALLY wondering. It's a rhetorical device -- a kind way of saying, "You've got it all wrong, you big dummies!"

At least, in HIS mind, he was giving an important clarification of doctrine that he thought many would consider "new." In fact, here's how he closed the talk:

"I pray that we will see with NEW eyes and a NEW heart the eternal significance of the Savior’s atoning sacrifice ..."

Perhaps, what he was saying was "old hat" to the Scriptorian class, but he seems to think that some of us commoners would receive a new understanding of grace.

I wonder if Pres. Uchdorf will get any push-back from other GA's over this talk.

[Damien the Leper]

This talk and the talk by Wixom saved GC.

[BCSpace]

I listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk on grace and it made me think it was written by an Evangelical.  In my first pass of the talk I couldn't find anything I would disagree with.  It seemed to be a direct contradiction to "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and other common Mormon descriptions that grace is applied after all of our obedience.

 

It struck me that a week ago if I had described grace the way Elder Uchtdorf did in this talk approximately 75% of Mormons would have disagreed with me.  Would they disagree with Elder Uchtdorf today?  Has Mormonism just embraced a traditional Christian understanding on grace?

 

He taught it exactly as the scriptures do, and by extension, the LDS Church does. That he my have not touched certain aspects of Grace or given them short shrift is neither here nor there. If you were to teach a lesson on Grace from official LDS doctrine, Uchtdorf woud agree with you.

[Alan]

I listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk on grace and it made me think it was written by an Evangelical.  In my first pass of the talk I couldn't find anything I would disagree with.  It seemed to be a direct contradiction to "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and other common Mormon descriptions that grace is applied after all of our obedience.

 

It struck me that a week ago if I had described grace the way Elder Uchtdorf did in this talk approximately 75% of Mormons would have disagreed with me.  Would they disagree with Elder Uchtdorf today?  Has Mormonism just embraced a traditional Christian understanding on grace?

 

I thought the talk could have been written by Stephen Robinson (Believing Christ). There was nothing new in the talk in my view, it was just presented with a slight difference.

[Gray]

Some of you may not think that President Uchtdorf was saying anything new, but HE sure thought so:

"However, I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase “after all we can do.” We must understand that “after” does not equal “because.”"

To be clear, when he says, "I wonder," he isn't REALLY wondering. It's a rhetorical device -- a kind way of saying, "You've got it all wrong, you big dummies!"

At least, in HIS mind, he was giving an important clarification of doctrine that he thought many would consider "new." In fact, here's how he closed the talk:

"I pray that we will see with NEW eyes and a NEW heart the eternal significance of the Savior’s atoning sacrifice ..."

Perhaps, what he was saying was "old hat" to the Scriptorian class, but he seems to think that some of us commoners would receive a new understanding of grace.

 

His approach to grace is actually pretty common in my own liberal ward. However it's the first time I've heard anything like this from a prominent general authority (my own introduction to this idea was reading Believing Christ some 15 years ago).