Uchtdorf On Grace

[Teancum]

Wow, this really is a major issue for you isn't it.  Even to the point of ignoring modern revelation and going "Bible thumper".

Single people will have the choice between receiving a sealing into an eternal family or staying a servant.  They will get whichever they want.

 

I'm not even going to try and convince you that D&C 132 came from God.  Honestly, I'm tired of having that debate with doubting members.  God authorized polygamy.  God is a polygamist.  Christ is a polygamist.  Almost all of Gods prophets have been polygamists.  Polygamy is the way the Gods live.  Those of us who are living in the day when polygamy has been revoked will be given the future opportunity to live that law.  Polyandry was perfectly fine because the women weren't married to their other husbands for eternity, just to one man, Joseph. There is no eternal polyandry.  And yes, a sealing IS a marriage.

 

I accept EVERY revelation given to the prophet Joseph Smith as coming directly from God and I accept every teaching from Joseph too, canonized or not.

If members of the Church don't want to believe that's their business, but Mormonism includes polygamy and always will.  It came from God.  It existed before the foundation of the world.  It has existed on every earth and in every Celestial Kingdom.    It will come to the earth again.  It will be commonplace in the Celestial Kingdom.  If it troubles people here that's because of false mortal traditions they can't get past.

 

Those are my opinions.  Can't be proven so don't bother with CFR.  But that's the way it is and I KNOW that my beliefs will be proven correct.  /rant

 

 

Bible thumper?  Really?  Tacenda getting under your skin?

 

If you want to believe God and Jesus are polygamists great and goody for you.  Don't expect the other 99.90% of Christianity to believe you nor don't squawk when they reject Mormonism as a valid Christian expression.

 

And Tacenda, don't worry.  God and Jesus really are not polygamist in spite of JLHPROF's insistence.  Really this is the least of your worries.-

[Teancum]

The gospel has never changed in all eternity.  This is a false separation.  Those in the OT were under the same gospel as in the NT and as in our day.

 

 

Sure it has changed. Tons! Study Christian history.  JS may have claimed his flavor way back to the beginning but the records just don't bear it out.

 

And so has the LDS gospel.  You accept Adam God....where is it now?

 

And even though you embrace D&C 132 there is nothing anywhere that demonstrates anyone before JS teaching God required this for the top reward in heaven. No where.  Nothing. Nada.  Zero. Zippo.

[Teancum]

It's been forever since I've read The Miracle of Forgiveness, but as I remember, one half of the book is hellfire and damnation, and the other half is mercy, atonement, forgiveness, et cetera.  I think the problem is that most people only read the first part of the book.  

 

 

I like the last three chapters. They should come first.

[Teancum]

It will sound like boasting but after listening to his talk it is apparent he borrowed from others who have talked on this.  He borrowed heavily from Bro. Wilcox and others.  He combined multiple concepts in way that I have only seen in a few places.  And yes every concept he mentioned and taught and preached is in both my episode on grace and in my powerpoint that I have done for others.  "Salvation is not found in works, not even those revealed of God" - Elder McConkie

 

My guess is Pres Uchtdorf has been heavily influenced by how Robinson, Millet, Wilcox, and Reel frame Grace. I find it odd how many see that and others brush it off as if this theology has always had solid footing in Mormonism.... my point of view?  It has not until recently and only officially last Sunday.

 

 

You are correct of course in spite of the protestations here.

[carbon dioxide]

Bible thumper?  Really?  Tacenda getting under your skin?

 

If you want to believe God and Jesus are polygamists great and goody for you.  Don't expect the other 99.90% of Christianity to believe you nor don't squawk when they reject Mormonism as a valid Christian expression.

 

And Tacenda, don't worry.  God and Jesus really are not polygamist in spite of JLHPROF's insistence.  Really this is the least of your worries.-

I don't know if God or Jesus are polygamists.  Maybe they are and maybe they are not. 

[JLHPROF]

Bible thumper?  Really?  Tacenda getting under your skin?

 

If you want to believe God and Jesus are polygamists great and goody for you.  Don't expect the other 99.90% of Christianity to believe you nor don't squawk when they reject Mormonism as a valid Christian expression.

 

And Tacenda, don't worry.  God and Jesus really are not polygamist in spite of JLHPROF's insistence.  Really this is the least of your worries.-

 

No Tacenda is't getting under my skin - in fact she's a perfectly lovely participant on this board.

However the same old "I hate polygamy so it must be false" complaint is very tiresome.  Tacenda is just one of many that post it regularly.

 

And you have the right to your opinion as to Christ and God's marital status but I stated my beliefs as my opinions.  You are stating yours as fact.  Is it worth my effort to CFR them?

 

 

Sure it has changed. Tons! Study Christian history.  JS may have claimed his flavor way back to the beginning but the records just don't bear it out.

 

And so has the LDS gospel.  You accept Adam God....where is it now?

 

And even though you embrace D&C 132 there is nothing anywhere that demonstrates anyone before JS teaching God required this for the top reward in heaven. No where.  Nothing. Nada.  Zero. Zippo.

 

Where is Adam-God?  Still there, still part of the gospel.  The true gospel doesn't change, ever.  Regardless of which parts are taught.  Truth is eternal.  We are just worthy of more and less at varying times.  The gospel is a pie.  Sometimes we get a crumb.  Sometimes we get a slice.  Sometimes we get the whole pie.  But the pie itself never changes.

And any perceived contradictions are the errors of men.

[Teancum]

No Tacenda is't getting under my skin - in fact she's a perfectly lovely participant on this board.

However the same old "I hate polygamy so it must be false" complaint is very tiresome.  Tacenda is just one of many that post it regularly.

 

And you have the right to your opinion as to Christ and God's marital status but I stated my beliefs as my opinions.  You are stating yours as fact.  Is it worth my effort to CFR them?

 

 

 

Where is Adam-God?  Still there, still part of the gospel.  The true gospel doesn't change, ever.  Regardless of which parts are taught.  Truth is eternal.  We are just worthy of more and less at varying times.  The gospel is a pie.  Sometimes we get a crumb.  Sometimes we get a slice.  Sometimes we get the whole pie.  But the pie itself never changes.

And any perceived contradictions are the errors of men.

 

 

1: When you call Tacenda a Bible Thumper it sure seems that Tacenda is getting under your skin.

 

2:  It is not "I Hate polygamy so it is false."  It is what nonsense this is that anyone would believe God would really command such hooey.  How sad it is that Mormons have to die on this hill defending this thing JS did when they most certainly would and do reject is from other powerful religious leaders.   It is using rational thought and reasoning to make a conclusion rather than having to defend JS in whatever he did or perhaps lose a testimony.  See?  It is not as simple as you attempt to make it.

 

3: As for what God and Jesus are my read of scripture, prayer and inspiration is as valid as yours. My read and answers to prayers are the God did not command JS to do this and that God is not a polygamist.  What a dilemma we now have since we have reached opposing views on this. Who is right and who is wrong?

 

4:  According to Spencer Kimball and Bruce McConkie if you believe Adam God you are in apostasy and worthy of excommunication.   And where is it?  You say it is still there.  CFR on this one.

[Teancum]

I don't know if God or Jesus are polygamists.  Maybe they are and maybe they are not. 

 

 

Nah

 

They are not.

[JLHPROF]

1: When you call Tacenda a Bible Thumper it sure seems that Tacenda is getting under your skin.

 

Then I withdraw that statement and apologize.  But falling back on "where is this in the NT" is the old evangelical line, not a Mormon approach.

 

2:  It is not "I Hate polygamy so it is false."  It is what nonsense this is that anyone would believe God would really command such hooey.  How sad it is that Mormons have to die on this hill defending this thing JS did when they most certainly would and do reject is from other powerful religious leaders.   It is using rational thought and reasoning to make a conclusion rather than having to defend JS in whatever he did or perhaps lose a testimony.  See?  It is not as simple as you attempt to make it.

 

It is not "I Hate polygamy so it is false."  It is what nonsense this is that anyone would believe God would really command such hooey.

Same thing.  Both are just statements of distaste and have no objective value.  It is very simple.  Either it came from God or it didn't and our opinions of the practice mean nothing.  I have D&C 132 and a ton of Biblical precedent to back my opinion of the practice.  That's enough for me.

 

3: As for what God and Jesus are my read of scripture, prayer and inspiration is as valid as yours. My read and answers to prayers are the God did not command JS to do this and that God is not a polygamist.  What a dilemma we now have since we have reached opposing views on this. Who is right and who is wrong?

 

Yes that's true.  But you state your views as inarguable fact.  I at least have the courtesy to state that my view is my opinion.

 

4:  According to Spencer Kimball and Bruce McConkie if you believe Adam God you are in apostasy and worthy of excommunication.   And where is it?  You say it is still there.  CFR on this one.

 

The doctrine of Adam-God is still in the teachings of the prophet Brigham Young (and others) and in the scripture/temple teachings he connected to it.  That has never changed.  Pres. Kimball and Elder McConkie have as much right to be wrong about their beliefs as anyone else.  The doctrine hasn't gone anywhere just because some don't believe it.

And I am no more in apostasy for believing in Adam-God than you are for believing Joseph Smith introduced polygamy against God's will to satisfy his own lusts.

Edited April 11, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Teancum]

 

1: When you call Tacenda a Bible Thumper it sure seems that Tacenda is getting under your skin.

 

Then I withdraw that statement and apologize.  But falling back on "where is this in the NT" is the old evangelical line, not a Mormon approach.

 

2:  It is not "I Hate polygamy so it is false."  It is what nonsense this is that anyone would believe God would really command such hooey.  How sad it is that Mormons have to die on this hill defending this thing JS did when they most certainly would and do reject is from other powerful religious leaders.   It is using rational thought and reasoning to make a conclusion rather than having to defend JS in whatever he did or perhaps lose a testimony.  See?  It is not as simple as you attempt to make it.

 

It is not "I Hate polygamy so it is false."  It is what nonsense this is that anyone would believe God would really command such hooey.

Same thing.  Both are just statements of distaste and have no objective value.  It is very simple.  Either it came from God or it didn't and our opinions of the practice mean nothing.  I have D&C 132 and a ton of Biblical precedent to back my opinion of the practice.  That's enough for me.

 

3: As for what God and Jesus are my read of scripture, prayer and inspiration is as valid as yours. My read and answers to prayers are the God did not command JS to do this and that God is not a polygamist.  What a dilemma we now have since we have reached opposing views on this. Who is right and who is wrong?

 

Yes that's true.  But you state your views as inarguable fact.  I at least have the courtesy to state that my view is my opinion.

 

4:  According to Spencer Kimball and Bruce McConkie if you believe Adam God you are in apostasy and worthy of excommunication.   And where is it?  You say it is still there.  CFR on this one.

 

The doctrine of Adam-God is still in the teachings of the prophet Brigham Young (and others) and in the scripture/temple teachings he connected to it.  That has never changed.  Pres. Kimball and Elder McConkie have as much right to be wrong about their beliefs as anyone else.  The doctrine hasn't gone anywhere just because some don't believe it.

And I am no more in apostasy for believing in Adam-God than you are for believing Joseph Smith introduced polygamy against God's will to satisfy his own lusts.

 

 

 

1: Please provide Biblical precedent where God commands polygamy in order to be exalted.

 

2: Ok my position is not fact. It is opinion based on study, reason, critical thinking as well as prayer.

 

3:  I know I am in apostasy for rejection D&C 132 and JS's plural marriage.   So are you when it comes to Adam God.

[JLHPROF]

1: Please provide Biblical precedent where God commands polygamy in order to be exalted.

 

2: Ok my position is not fact. It is opinion based on study, reason, critical thinking as well as prayer.

 

3:  I know I am in apostasy for rejection D&C 132 and JS's plural marriage.   So are you when it comes to Adam God.

 

1. Once again, it doesn't have to be spelled out there to be true.  I am not pretending that it is in the Bible as a literal commandment.  But many things aren't in the bible.  Other things are well hidden - like Christ's polygamy and his commandment to live polygamy.  But MY belief in the Bible is that Christ was married to Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene, and that when he commanded us to do the works of Abraham it wasn't sacrificing our sons he had in mind, but living plural marriage.

 

2. Thank you for acknowledging that.

 

3. Then we can be happy little apostates together - me clinging to the gospel as taught by Joseph and Brigham (and John, and Wilford and others), you rejecting big chunks of it that trouble you. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by JLHPROF

[CCRW]

After reading this thread my head is spinning.  salvation, justification, grace, justification grace, salvation grace, exaltation, terrestrial/celestial misunderstandings, servants, multiple levels of Celestial (I only heard two mentioned, there are 5).

 

It reminds me of Sefer Yetzirah

 

If only we can know all the right words and say them in the right order magic will happen!

 

There is something fundamentally wrong with all sides of this discussion.

 

ETA: and not one mention of baptism of fire???

Edited April 11, 2015 by CCRW

[Teancum]

1. Once again, it doesn't have to be spelled out there to be true.  I am not pretending that it is in the Bible as a literal commandment.  But many things aren't in the bible.  Other things are well hidden - like Christ's polygamy and his commandment to live polygamy.  But MY belief in the Bible is that Christ was married to Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene, and that when he commanded us to do the works of Abraham it wasn't sacrificing our sons he had in mind, but living plural marriage.

 

2. Thank you for acknowledging that.

 

3. Then we can be happy little apostates together - me clinging to the gospel as taught by Joseph and Brigham (and John, and Wilford and others), you rejecting big chunks of it that trouble you. 

 

 

1: Well you like Brigham and crew are simply reading into history things that have no evidence in order to bolster your unique belief.

 

2: You are welcome. If I ever act like I have facts for things beyond this world call me on it. I am seeking just like you and am open.

 

3:  LOL!  How funny is that.  We are alike in differing ways. 

[Tacenda]

deleted...OH, thanks for the rep point, I don't know who you are (limited status) but it was nice!  I'm assuming it goes to the below, haha!  Having a heck of a time today with my post.  Btw, I re-listened to Pres. Uchtdorf's talk, I guess it does go along with LDS thought.  But the wording was different than I'd ever heard before!  In fact maybe we'll put "Amazing Grace" in our hymnbook!  

 

 

I love this song for more than it's a beautiful and true hymn.  When my mom was in a care center there was this lady, she had Pick's disease...she'd come up to greet us every time and start singing "Amazing Grace"!  It's bringing tears to my eyes as I speak!  

Edited April 11, 2015 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

No Tacenda is't getting under my skin - in fact she's a perfectly lovely participant on this board.

 

You know what I look like?  

 

JLHPROF, I see you as being true to your beliefs, good for you!  I will back off and just remember that we think differently and that's ok.     

Edited April 11, 2015 by Tacenda

[CCRW]

1. Once again, it doesn't have to be spelled out there to be true.  I am not pretending that it is in the Bible as a literal commandment.  But many things aren't in the bible.  Other things are well hidden - like Christ's polygamy and his commandment to live polygamy.  But MY belief in the Bible is that Christ was married to Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene, and that when he commanded us to do the works of Abraham it wasn't sacrificing our sons he had in mind, but living plural marriage.

 

Having a fair amount of experience in the temple, I wonder how many wives are required to achieve the Abrahamic Covenent (posterity numbered as the sands of the seas)?

Edited April 11, 2015 by CCRW

[CCRW]

thank you.  From the missing front teeth, reminding me of my grandchildren, to the voice of such a young one, to considering the circumstance, to the message of the song.  This is what is fundamentally wrong with this thread.  It's just not all that complex, its as simple as that little girls song.

Edited April 11, 2015 by CCRW

[Calm]

Having a fair amount of experience in the temple, I wonder how many wives are required to achieve the Abrahamic Covenent (posterity numbered as the sands of the seas)?

Just one.

 

My mother in law had 8 surviving kids, who in total had 33, who are over 60 greatgrands iirc with decades to go till the next generation takes over….

 

My mom was given the blessing to be like Sarah of old and have her posterity numbered, etc. etc.  She had five kids, who have had so far 12, who are just starting at about 6 greatgrandkids….even with the lower birth rate than my mil, given enough time, her posterity will fill the earth.

Edited April 12, 2015 by calmoriah

[CCRW]

Calmoriah, I agree ... It was just interesting to see some here still proclaim exactly what I would have 15 years back with such conviction as JLHPROF, i.e. that polygamy is a requirement for exaltation in the 7th heaven.  I assumed that the church as a whole had backed away from that teaching.

 

But more important, I hope you have way cool family unions and all the cousins get to know each other.  Sounds like a great set of families.  It is so darn hard when the kids start to scatter around the world.

[Russell C McGregor]

Calmoriah, I agree ... It was just interesting to see some here still proclaim exactly what I would have 15 years back with such conviction as JLHPROF, i.e. that polygamy is a requirement for exaltation in the 7th heaven.  I assumed that the church as a whole had backed away from that teaching.

 

But more important, I hope you have way cool family unions and all the cousins get to know each other.  Sounds like a great set of families.  It is so darn hard when the kids start to scatter around the world.

 

Excuse me, what 7th heaven?

[mbh26]

        Salvation is Absolutley Free 2 Nephi 2:4 , but it will cost us our very Lives Luke 14:15-33.

 

        Conference Center House was Rocked yesterday !. Awesome.

 

         In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                       Anakin7

 

Yeah, that makes lot of sense.  No contradiction there.  

[Okrahomer]

Yeah, that makes lot of sense.  No contradiction there.

If not a contradiction, then perhaps a paradox. On the one hand, Jesus said: Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

On the other hand, he said: John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

[JLHPROF]

Excuse me, what 7th heaven?

 

 

Well, one blog site provides the following quotes that I agree with (even if I don't agree with all the blog writers comments):

 

 

http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/content/section-130

 

DC 130:10 then the white stone mentioned... will become a Urim and Thummim... whereby things pertaining to a higher order... will be made known

 

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:2-4)

 

Paul was caught up to the third heaven but apocryphal and rabbinical literature speaks of seven heavens. (Parry, Temples of the Ancient World: Ritual and Symbolism, 683.)

 

"From time to time... Joseph Smith alluded to this vision of the glories (D&C 76). He said, 'Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder-the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter.'  But, he explained, 'Paul has seen the third heavens, and I more.'  On another occasion he said of himself, 'I know one who was caught up to the seventh heaven and saw and heard things not lawful for me to utter.'"  (Hyrum L. Andrus, Joseph Smith, the Man and the Seer [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1960], 112)

 

DC 130:11 a white stone is given to each... whereon is a new name written

Pointing to this great, celestial event is the temple endowment.  Temple patrons, in essence, are foreordained in this life to receive a white stone in the next.  Each patron who takes out his personal endowment is given a new name which is a key word in the temple endowment.

 

So according to the interpretation of the blog authors the 7th heaven refers to the "higher order of kingdoms".

 

Another option is it could also be a further division in the top degree of the Celestial looking something like this:

 

1. Celestial 3c

2. Celestial 3b

3. Celestial 3a

4. Celestial 2

5. Celestial 1

6. Terrestrial

7. Telestial

 

But we have no proof for either theory that isn't speculation.  Either way both Joseph Smith and apocryphal literature reference a 7th heaven.

And the blog writers correctly reference:

D&C 88:37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

[mbh26]

Pure obedience is an expression of love (there is a lesser form of obedience out of fear).  One is not paying for salvation, but expressing one's acceptance of the gift and of one's love for God by doing what he has commanded us to do.

 

Grace was offered to us from the beginning of the earth and before.  But in regards to ourselves, it is put into action by God when we act to accept it (a work) by acting on his commandments. 

 

So if you fail to be perfectly obedient that means you don't really love God and are completely ungrateful for his sacrifice and must have never been eligible for grace in the first place?  

[JLHPROF]

So if you fail to be perfectly obedient

 

Try "choose to be disobedient".  Grace is primarily connected to those who accept it.  Those who choose to reject Christ and his teachings and commandments reject his grace as a matter of course.