Dando Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 I listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk on grace and it made me think it was written by an Evangelical. In my first pass of the talk I couldn't find anything I would disagree with. It seemed to be a direct contradiction to "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and other common Mormon descriptions that grace is applied after all of our obedience. It struck me that a week ago if I had described grace the way Elder Uchtdorf did in this talk approximately 75% of Mormons would have disagreed with me. Would they disagree with Elder Uchtdorf today? Has Mormonism just embraced a traditional Christian understanding on grace?
ERayR Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 I listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk on grace and it made me think it was written by an Evangelical. In my first pass of the talk I couldn't find anything I would disagree with. It seemed to be a direct contradiction to "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and other common Mormon descriptions that grace is applied after all of our obedience. It struck me that a week ago if I had described grace the way Elder Uchtdorf did in this talk approximately 75% of Mormons would have disagreed with me. Would they disagree with Elder Uchtdorf today? Has Mormonism just embraced a traditional Christian understanding on grace? Nope, we have just received a correct interpretation of that scripture.
Boanerges Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Interestingly enough I agree with ERayR here. Nevertheless, don't expect your GD class to be fully on board with it yet. It's amazing sometimes how some people only listen to (or quote) a prophet when they're in full agreement with what he says. The old hardliners will stick to their guns and spin his words as necessary.
Popular Post Mystery Meat Posted April 7, 2015 Popular Post Posted April 7, 2015 Interestingly enough I agree with ERayR here. Nevertheless, don't expect your GD class to be fully on board with it yet. It's amazing sometimes how some people only listen to (or quote) a prophet when they're in full agreement with what he says. The old hardliners will stick to their guns and spin his words as necessary. I don't get how it differs with anything else that I have ever been taught in Mormon theology, including Miracle of Forgiveness. 10
Duncan Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Pres. Uchtdorf isn't the first to say those kinds of thing, Robert Millet of BYU, Elder Hafen of the 70 and Brad Wilcox 1
ERayR Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Interestingly enough I agree with ERayR here. Nevertheless, don't expect your GD class to be fully on board with it yet. It's amazing sometimes how some people only listen to (or quote) a prophet when they're in full agreement with what he says. The old hardliners will stick to their guns and spin his words as necessary. Have you not learned yet? GA's are only correct when they agree with you, otherwise they are only giving their opinion. 3
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Popular Post Posted April 7, 2015 I listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk on grace and it made me think it was written by an Evangelical. In my first pass of the talk I couldn't find anything I would disagree with. It seemed to be a direct contradiction to "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and other common Mormon descriptions that grace is applied after all of our obedience. It struck me that a week ago if I had described grace the way Elder Uchtdorf did in this talk approximately 75% of Mormons would have disagreed with me. Would they disagree with Elder Uchtdorf today? Has Mormonism just embraced a traditional Christian understanding on grace?This is buncomb. President (note the correct title) Uchtdorf's statements do not clash in any respect with President Kimball or Miracle of Forgiveness. If you think they do, I submit that it is you who has the incorrect understanding. 11
Popular Post Antoni Posted April 7, 2015 Popular Post Posted April 7, 2015 As an ex-evangelical he did NOT give an evangelical talk on grace. - Pres Uchtdorf gave the correct LDS doctrine on it but made sure certain clarifications were made to understand the nuances of our belief on this wonderful doctrine. I thought his clarification of "after all we can do" not "because of all we do" was especially useful. At no point did he go down the "cheap grace" (to use Bonhoeffer's wonderful turn of phrase) route of evangelicalism. I'm currently reading Sheri Dew's new book on Grace and commend that to you all too! Light, Love and Peace. 9
Buckeye Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 My initial thought after the talk was, "I wonder if DBMormon ghost wrote that for him?" It was great.
Boanerges Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Pres. Uchtdorf isn't the first to say those kinds of thing, Robert Millet of BYU, Elder Hafen of the 70 and Brad Wilcox Yes, but none of them are prophets, seers, and revelators.
Duncan Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Yes, but none of them are prophets, seers, and revelators. Matt 23:34, "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men," 2
canard78 Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 My initial thought after the talk was, "I wonder if DBMormon ghost wrote that for him?" It was great.He will love you forever for that comment. There was a very gentle "I told you so" from DB on the other thread. I'm glad you're able to recognise the similarities in messages. DB has had a fair amount of flack from some people on this board. I'm sure he was delighted to hear the talk. 2
Danzo Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 I don't get how it differs with anything else that I have ever been taught in Mormon theology, including Miracle of Forgiveness. I don't either understand what the big deal is. He taught it the same as it has always been taught, at least for me. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 He will love you forever for that comment.There was a very gentle "I told you so" from DB on the other thread. I'm glad you're able to recognise the similarities in messages. DB has had a fair amount of flack from some people on this board. I'm sure he was delighted to hear the talk.I don't think President Uchtdorf expressed any doctrine or principle that hasn't been had for a long, long time among the Latter-day Saints. 4
churchistrue Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 A lot of it was borrowed from Stephen Robinson and Bob Millet. It was somewhat revolutionary 20 years ago, but it's getting close to mainstream now. Good stuff. 1
Dando Posted April 7, 2015 Author Posted April 7, 2015 Pres. Uchtdorf isn't the first to say those kinds of thing, Robert Millet of BYU, Elder Hafen of the 70 and Brad Wilcox I agree that these things have previously been taught in a limited scope by a few individuals. But never before in General Conference by a member of the First Presidency. 1
Dando Posted April 7, 2015 Author Posted April 7, 2015 I don't think President Uchtdorf expressed any doctrine or principle that hasn't been had for a long, long time among the Latter-day Saints.We've always been at war with EastAsia.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 I agree that these things have previously been taught in a limited scope by a few individuals. But never before in General Conference by a member of the First Presidency.I think you would have a tough time substantiating that.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 We've always been at war with EastAsia.And the world didn't really begin until you were born, what, 20-30 years ago? 1
JLHPROF Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Had to have a re-listen to get what Pres. Uchtdorf was saying.Some of my observations: 1. His interpretation of "Grace" is a VERY Mormon one. It could have come right out of Stephen Robinson's "Believing Christ".This was no evangelical "nothing we can do" grace. This was grace to assist our most righteous efforts, as he puts it, to "miraculously merge our works with God's grace". 2. He clearly differentiated between salvation and exaltation - something we don't do well enough in my opinion.I particularly liked: "Salvation, as wonderful as it is, does not fulfill the Father's aspirations for us. His aim is much higher. He wants his sons and daughters to become like him.The path of discipleship does not lead backwards, it leads upwards. It leads to heights we can scarcely comprehend. It leads to exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom..." 3. Too bad that the woman anointing Christ story wasn't given the full explanation as a crowning ordinance and was instead left as something simple. 4. He states that "salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience" and yet we know from other prophets that "obedience is the first law of heaven". These two statements can be meshed, but it is tricky. He's 100% right, but it bears considering how. What a brilliant talk!
Scott Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Had to have a re-listen to get what Pres. Uchtdorf was saying.Some of my observations: 1. His interpretation of "Grace" is a VERY Mormon one. It could have come right out of Stephen Robinson's "Believing Christ".This was no evangelical "nothing we can do" grace. This was grace to assist our most righteous efforts, as he puts it, to "miraculously merge our works with God's grace". 2. He clearly differentiated between salvation and exaltation - something we don't do well enough in my opinion.I particularly liked: 3. Too bad that the woman anointing Christ story wasn't given the full explanation as a crowning ordinance and was instead left as something simple. 4. He states that "salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience" and yet we know from other prophets that "obedience is the first law of heaven". These two statements can be meshed, but it is tricky. He's 100% right, but it bears considering how. What a brilliant talk!So in other words, "it is by grace we are saved after all we can do." Hmm. It does seem I've heard or read that before. 3
Brian 2.0 Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 1. His interpretation of "Grace" is a VERY Mormon one. It could have come right out of Stephen Robinson's "Believing Christ".This was no evangelical "nothing we can do" grace. This was grace to assist our most righteous efforts, as he puts it, to "miraculously merge our works with God's grace". Agreed. And I remember reading that book for the first time and thinking "Wow. No one has ever taught it like that". It felt like a new framework for understanding it that wasn't really there in Mormonism before... but hey... it's was being touted at Deseret Book so I guess this is good Mormon doctrine? I never really thought that framework completely made it into manuals and such... but this talk certainly does. 1
Anakin7 Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Salvation is Absolutley Free 2 Nephi 2:4 , but it will cost us our very Lives Luke 14:15-33. Conference Center House was Rocked yesterday !. Awesome. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
JLHPROF Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Salvation is Absolutley Free 2 Nephi 2:4 , but it will cost us our very Lives Luke 14:15-33. Conference Center House was Rocked yesterday !. Awesome. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Define free? Can anyone have it? Sure, if they accept Christ as Lord which is why every knee shall bend and every tongue confess him and none shall be lost except the sons of perdition. And salvation in the Celestial Kingdom (heaven) has more requirements. And salvation in the top degree of the Celestial Kingdom (in preparation for exaltation) has even more. There are ALWAYS requirements to any blessing. D&C 130 tells us that. 1
Anakin7 Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 But it Costs us our very lives to obtain the Free Salvation freely offered to us. The Cost is to change and submit and to walk the walk of True Allegience/Belief/Commitment/Confidence/Discipleship/Faithfullness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust to the Person and work of Christ Jesus.Walk in The Light as He is In The Light so The Blood of His Son Cleanses us from all sin. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Recommended Posts