Uchtdorf On Grace

[Anakin7]

    Dando please PM me. Thank you. May True Grace Be with you and those you Luv.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

Edited April 7, 2015 by Anakin7

[Vance]

"Free" in the context of salvation means that is available to all without restriction, not that it doesn't cost.

[ERayR]

So in other words, "it is by grace we are saved after all we can do."

 

Hmm. It does seem I've heard or read that before.

 

If you are saying that no matter what we do we still need grace, yes.

[Scott Lloyd]

If you are saying that no matter what we do we still need grace, yes.

That's what I'm saying.

 

And to spell it out, I read it in the Book of Mormon. I don't think you can get much farther back in the history of Mormonism than that.

 

Ergo, this is not a new teaching.

[Dando]

How do you think Uchtdorf's talk relates to the parable of the bicycle?

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-06-2030-parable-of-the-bicycle?lang=eng

 

 

In my mind it directly contradicts it.  According to President Uchtdorf, the dad buys the bike knowing the girl can't ever afford it, AND THEN she earns money in some way for her father with her bike. She starts doing household chores because she simply loves her father.

Compare that to these quotes
 

“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation”
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206)

 

 

 

“This second greatest truth is that Christ worked out this infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice so that all men are raised in immortality and those who believe and obey are raised also unto eternal life. Now the opposite of that is the second greatest heresy in all Christendom, and the opposite is that men are saved by some kind of lip service, by the grace of God supposedly, without work and without effort on their part.”
(Bruce R. McConkie, “The Seven Deadly Heresies,” an address given at Brigham Young University on June 1, 1980. Transcribed from actual speech).

 

 

 

“Even that grace of God promised in the scriptures comes only ‘after all we can do’”
(Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, November 1995 (Conference Edition), p. 19).

 

[JLHPROF]

How do you think Uchtdorf's talk relates to the parable of the bicycle?

 

In my mind it directly contradicts it.  According to President Uchtdorf, the dad buys the bike knowing the girl can't ever afford it, AND THEN she earns money in some way for her father with her bike. She starts doing household chores because she simply loves her father.

 

 

I think you are creating a dichotomy where none exists.  You are debating the point at which grace begins to exist for us.  It really isn't relevant.

Grace is there before we do all we can do, while we are doing all we can do, and after we do all we can do.

Grace is what encourages us to do all we can do.

 

The point is that we are required to fulfill the law upon which any blessing is predicated.  God's grace exists because we are incapable of fulfilling every law perfectly.  In order to become like God we will eventually be able to give grace to others.  It's really simple.

 

The law says there is a price must be paid in order to receive the bike.  In some cases God pays 100% and sets his own requirements to give us the bike.  In some cases God pays first and we finish up the payments.  In some cases we pay 10% first and God pays the remaining 90%.  In some very righteous cases we pay 49% and God pays 51%.

 

We are always indebted to his grace, regardless of how much work is done by us and how much is given by God.  That is justification.  The price gets paid and the blessing is received.

Pres. Uchtdorf didn't contradict the parable or other prophets at all.  He did NOT teach "easy grace" where we do nothing..

[Dando]

If you're under the assumption that Evangelicals believe in "doing nothing" you have not been properly introduced to our doctrine of "works".  We believe that we can do nothing for our salvation AND THEN because we have been saved are able to do the works God has given us.

 

I agree that the talk was not telling any one to "do nothing".  I wouldn't agree with any Protestant pastor who said something like that.

This isn't really a conversation about GRACE vs. WORKS.  This is about the order: From works comes grace OR from grace comes works.  President Uchtdorf was teaching that from grace come works.

[Teancum]

Define free?  Can anyone have it?  Sure, if they accept Christ as Lord which is why every knee shall bend and every tongue confess him and none shall be lost except the sons of perdition.

 

And salvation in the Celestial Kingdom (heaven) has more requirements. 

 

And salvation in the top degree of the Celestial Kingdom (in preparation for exaltation) has even more.

 

There are ALWAYS requirements to any blessing.  D&C 130 tells us that.

 

 

I like to think of it as justification and sanctification.  I believe the scriptures make a case for justification through faith, repentance, Baptism and gift of the holy ghost.  Because LDS don't believe in eternal security I would say we also need to abide in Christ or endure to the end.

 

But article of faith 4 triggers justification which I believe means heirs of the celestial kingdom.  Sanctification is the additional stuff we do, as well as other ordinances and those give you the higher rewards in the celestial kingdom.  But one you are justified if you abide in Christ and continue do so when you fail it does not matter where you are on the path.  You are an heir to the celestial kingdom.   This to me is grace and the after all we can do language.

 

I am sure others may disagree.

[Teancum]

I think you are creating a dichotomy where none exists.  You are debating the point at which grace begins to exist for us.  It really isn't relevant.

Grace is there before we do all we can do, while we are doing all we can do, and after we do all we can do.

Grace is what encourages us to do all we can do.

 

The point is that we are required to fulfill the law upon which any blessing is predicated.  God's grace exists because we are incapable of fulfilling every law perfectly.  In order to become like God we will eventually be able to give grace to others.  It's really simple.

 

The law says there is a price must be paid in order to receive the bike.  In some cases God pays 100% and sets his own requirements to give us the bike.  In some cases God pays first and we finish up the payments.  In some cases we pay 10% first and God pays the remaining 90%.  In some very righteous cases we pay 49% and God pays 51%.

 

We are always indebted to his grace, regardless of how much work is done by us and how much is given by God.  That is justification.  The price gets paid and the blessing is received.

Pres. Uchtdorf didn't contradict the parable or other prophets at all.  He did NOT teach "easy grace" where we do nothing..

 

 

I don't think we can pay any because according to the doctrine of the fall and redemption if Jesus had not paid it your payment would never save you one whit.

[Flyonthewall]

I must admit that I listened to his talk and found nothing new or contrary to what I have always been taught.

I did notice that he brought some clarity to the teaching of grace that non-LDS could understand and appreciate... and maybe even agree with.

[SmileyMcGee]

Nope, we have just received a correct interpretation of that scripture.

Ah yes, the fluidity of lds doctrine...

Edited April 8, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[SmileyMcGee]

Have you not learned yet? GA's are only correct when they agree with you, otherwise they are only giving their opinion.

You may be saying that in jest, but that appears to be the church's approach to dead prophets...

Edited April 8, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[teddyaware]

Define free?  Can anyone have it?  Sure, if they accept Christ as Lord which is why every knee shall bend and every tongue confess him and none shall be lost except the sons of perdition.

 

And salvation in the Celestial Kingdom (heaven) has more requirements. 

 

And salvation in the top degree of the Celestial Kingdom (in preparation for exaltation) has even more.

 

There are ALWAYS requirements to any blessing.  D&C 130 tells us that.

 

One way to understand how salvation is free is to come to realize that man cannot create salvation. Every manifestation of salvation is a creation of God and not a creation of man. All man can do is surrender to the terms and power of salvation and most gratefully receive it in all humility as the greatest of all gifts.

 

Righteousness is of God and not man. If a man is declared righteous (justified by grace), it is because he has been forgiven by God through the virtue of His own atoning sacrifice. Further, if a man performs the works of righteousness required of him as part of the process of eternal progression (sanctification by grace), the only way that man's works can be considered righteous in the eyes of God is if they are first inspired by and then empowered by Him, again by virtue of His own atoning sacrifice.

 

So even the works of righteousness men perform within the framework of the Gospel program are ultimately the creative acts of God Himself as He utilizes willing human free agents as instruments of salvation in His hands. This is why Paul told the Ephesians "we are HIS (God's) WORKMANSHIP in Christ Jesus unto good works." Even Christ Himself exemplified this principle of God performing His works of salvation through men who surrender to His righteous will and power for He told Philip, "It is NOT I who have done these things, but the Father who dwelleth in me, HE DOETH THE WORKS. The power to become like God is only obtained by willingly yielding one's will to God's will and power as He stands knocking at the door of the heart.

Edited April 8, 2015 by teddyaware

[ERayR]

Ah yes, the fluidity of lds doctrine...

 

You may be saying that in jest, but that appears to be the church's approach to dead prophets...

 

From my pov your posts make absolutely no sense.

[Rivers]

I didn't hear much new in this talk.  I have learned a lot about grace growing up in the church.  And I learned a lot about obedience.  The thing I like about this talk was the way in which Uchdorf discussed the relationship between obedience and grace.  He did a great job of explaining the purpose of obedience in light of the doctrine of grace.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rivers

[JLHPROF]

This isn't really a conversation about GRACE vs. WORKS.  This is about the order: From works comes grace OR from grace comes works.  President Uchtdorf was teaching that from grace come works.

 

I don't believe either (or that Pres. Uchtdorf taught either).

Works have always existed and always will.  Grace has always existed and always will.  Neither creates the other.  Both can be applied at any time.

They are not cause and effect.  They are two sides of the same coin - the fulfillment of a law.

[JLHPROF]

One way to understand how salvation is free is to come to realize that man cannot create salvation. Every manifestation of salvation is a creation of God and not a creation of man. All man can do is surrender to the terms and power of salvation and most gratefully receive it in all humility as the greatest of all gifts.

 

The flaw in this is that there IS a work necessary for basic salvation.  A very simple one.  We are required to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.

It is the same work that is necessary to become a citizen of a new country - to declare under oath our allegiance.  It is minor but it is still a work.

Therefore it is not truly free.  There is a cost of sorts.

 

The rest of your post I agree with.

 

The idea that even salvation is received free and clear with no action on our part is false.

[JLHPROF]

I don't think we can pay any because according to the doctrine of the fall and redemption if Jesus had not paid it your payment would never save you one whit.

 

That notion is both true and false.  Scripture both supports and disagrees with it.

There is a middle ground, a meshing of scripture that goes beyond that statement.

 

But of course without our Savior nobody would receive salvation.

[SmileyMcGee]

From my pov your posts make absolutely no sense.

Just give em some time and they'll sink in

[teddyaware]

The flaw in this is that there IS a work necessary for basic salvation.  A very simple one.  We are required to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.

It is the same work that is necessary to become a citizen of a new country - to declare under oath our allegiance.  It is minor but it is still a work.

Therefore it is not truly free.  There is a cost of sorts.

 

The rest of your post I agree with.

 

The idea that even salvation is received free and clear with no action on our part is false.

 

I thought I made it clear that action was required. When it comes to justification, the action that is required is yielding to the will and power of God by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. How does one yield to God's will and not simultaneously do His will when the scriptures make it clear God's will is all about godly action? When it comes to sanctification, the action that is required is yielding your human will to the will and power of God by allowing God to utilize you as an instrument of His will.

 

If one doesn't yield to the will of God unto justification, he remains in his fallen, sinful and unsaved condition. If one doesn't yield to the will of God unto sanctification, he will never grow in the grace, knowledge and power of God. Just because it's ultimately God's power that enables man to do works of true righteousness doesn't mean man is not fully obligated to exercise his God-given faith to bring forth the works of the Spirit of God. The root of sin is deliberately blocking Gods will, knowledge and power from entering into one's heart, mind and body.

Edited April 8, 2015 by teddyaware

[Dando]

The law says there is a price must be paid in order to receive the bike.  In some cases God pays 100% and sets his own requirements to give us the bike.  In some cases God pays first and we finish up the payments.  In some cases we pay 10% first and God pays the remaining 90%.  In some very righteous cases we pay 49% and God pays 51%.

 

 

 

"Salvation can not be bought by the currency of obedience. It is purchased by the blood of God." - President Uchtdorf

 

How is it that in some cases we "pay" 10% when President Uchtdorf says that our obedience is the wrong currency?

[duffman]

"Salvation can not be bought by the currency of obedience. It is purchased by the blood of God." - President Uchtdorf

 

How is it that in some cases we "pay" 10% when President Uchtdorf says that our obedience is the wrong currency?

 

Love that quote. I agree 100% with you dando, to me this talk was completely different feel than such teachings as can be found in "The Miracle of Forgiveness".  To me this talk was really profound for several reasons; 

[JLHPROF]

"Salvation can not be bought by the currency of obedience. It is purchased by the blood of God." - President Uchtdorf

 

How is it that in some cases we "pay" 10% when President Uchtdorf says that our obedience is the wrong currency?

 

Obedience is still the first law of heaven.  Salvation (which requires 100% justification against law) cannot be achieved considering our inability to obey the law perfectly.  That is what Pres. Uchtdorf was saying.

 

Christ is only Christ because he perfectly followed the law (and his Father).

We are incapable of such perfection, but that doesn't preclude us putting some of our obedience into practice.  The scriptures are clear on this.  Whenever we receive ANY blessing from God (or Christ) including our salvation, it is by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated.  If we do not obey the law requiring us to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior we do not get salvation.

 

Just accepting Christ to receive salvation through him requires some obedience to law.  You cannot separate our obedience and Christ's grace.  And neither did Pres. Uchtdorf.

 

And frankly, if President Uchtdorf DID mean what you are saying here (and he DID NOT) he would be completely wrong.

[teddyaware]

Love that quote. I agree 100% with you dando, to me this talk was completely different feel than such teachings as can be found in "The Miracle of Forgiveness".  To me this talk was really profound for several reasons; 

 

Have you ever considered the fact that the Miracle of Forgiveness was written in 1969, at the very dawn of the sexual revolution, the devastating plague of pornography, a much more widespread and destructive drug culture, the legalization of abortion, the ever-increasing undermining and destruction of traditional marriage and the family, etc...? As a prophet and President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Spencer W. Kimball could see what was about to happen to the world and that the degeneration of the wider society would inevitably creep its way into the Church, destroying thousand and thousands of unwary Latter-day Saint lives and breaking untold numbers of hearts.

 

President Kimball wrote his book from a the more strict perspectives and themes that can be found in the scriptures in the fervent and love-inspired hope that those who commit serious sin will not minimize the seriousness of what they have done because, even then, the world was already actively engaged in minimizing gross sin. And it was also written in the hope that those who hadn't yet committed serious sin would realize it's much better to remain safely on the Lord's side and not risk lives of tragedy, misery and degradation by yielding to sin in the first place.

 

God is surely merciful but for our own good He can also be very strict and exacting as well. President Kimball chose to underscore God's strict side (there are also many examples of God's merciful side found in the book as well, if a fair-minded person will but look for them) and he consciously took this approach out of love in the hope that many Latter-day Saints would heed his words and avoid being carried away by the great tide of unrighteousness that was being generated by an increasingly sick, wicked and ungodly secular world, a world that was beginning to falsely teach that great evils were no big deal. 

 

Reread the Miracle of Forgiveness for yourself and if you're honest with yourself you'll see President Kimball focused on God's wonderful mercy, not just on His strict justice. As one who was affected in a positive way by President Kimball's no-nonsense approach to sin, repentance and forgiveness, I am one who can defend the man and his methods. But doesn't it all ultimately boil down to one inescapable truth? "The wicked taketh the truth to be hard."

Edited April 8, 2015 by teddyaware

[duffman]

Obedience is still the first law of heaven.  Salvation (which requires 100% justification against law) cannot be achieved considering our inability to obey the law perfectly.  That is what Pres. Uchtdorf was saying.

 

Christ is only Christ because he perfectly followed the law (and his Father).

We are incapable of such perfection, but that doesn't preclude us putting some of our obedience into practice.  The scriptures are clear on this.  Whenever we receive ANY blessing from God (or Christ) including our salvation, it is by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated.  If we do not obey the law requiring us to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior we do not get salvation.

 

Just accepting Christ to receive salvation through him requires some obedience to law.  You cannot separate our obedience and Christ's grace.  And neither did Pres. Uchtdorf.

 

And frankly, if President Uchtdorf DID mean what you are saying here (and he DID NOT) he would be completely wrong.

 

I suppose I disagree with your understanding of what President Uchtdorf was saying.  It's hard to argue that when he says "salvation isn't bought with the currency of obedience, but bought with the blood of the Son of God" that our obedience guarantees us something.  Uchtdorf said that we follow God's commandments as a manifestation of our love for Him, not to earn something.  Of course goodness follows when we do good and follow God, but we aren't gaining salvation or changing our eternal destination through our actions.

 

I loved this talk because it completely counteracted (in my opinion) the over-emphases on obedience that I got at BYU-I and on my mission.  In those atmospheres obedience is how we obtain approval in the sight of God, and become "worthy, when according to Uchtdorf's message, Jesus already bought our salvation.  We are then obedient to show gratitude and love.  And, of course, it improves our lives.