If You Got To The Other Side And...

[JLHPROF]

I used to think so. Then I found someone who vehemently declared that if she found out God felt one way about an issue then she would not want to be in heaven with him.

Maybe it is just my imperfect self and most are not like me, but when I am honest with myself, I find I am rebellious. I will find myself thinking, "I know I shouldn't do that, but I don't care. I want to." Not over anything big, but I think the actions and thinking are dangerous.

So no, I don't think everyone will make those adjustments over doctrine.

 

This is kind of the crux of this thread.  Great post.

The idea that we will all agree when we get to the other side isn't scriptural.  The war in heaven showed us that just being with God and Christ in the spirit doesn't make us agree with them.

 

We all assume we will want Celestial glory and even exaltation.  But what if it required a belief, practice, etc that right now we absolutely hate?  How do we see ourselves adjusting to accept it or refusing the blessing in the next life.

What IF a woman here found out that her husband there would rule over her?  What if we found out that SS relationships couldn't exist or could exist in the next life?  What if we found out polygamy was an absolute requirement if we want to keep our eternal companions? (To use three of the most often debated topics).

How would we adjust our thinking?

 

 

 

Personally, most doctrine I think I could make the adjustment in my thinking, but I may ask lots of why or how questions.

There is one thing only I think that will take a lot of adjustment on. That's if my husband and I could not be together, even if being exaltation worthy. The closer I get to him the more I hate to be apart from him. I cannot imagine being told I could be with him for eternity, feeling the way I do now or growing even closer together and being told, "oh. Well, you were wrong about that." I honestly don't know how I would deal with that one, but could imagine being quite angry.

 

That's really sweet.  And I think that if you are willing to do ANYTHING God commands or requires to keep your eternal companionship then there is no danger of you losing it.  All we need to do to receive a blessing from God is to fulfill the law upon which it is predicated and live worthy.

[Storm Rider]

Lovely evangelical type thought, but not scriptural.

We know there is a Spirit Prison full of spirits that either didn't know or didn't accept the gospel and are going to be taught it in the next life.

What do you think the process is like for all those sectarians and atheists in the Spirit Prision having to adjust to the idea that Mormonism was the true religion?

 

This "oneness" you speak of will not be an instantaneous thing.  It is the adjustment factor I am interested in.

What if you were to find out that the "complete union" you speak of takes an inordinate amount of effort on the part of the new arrival?  What if it required something that you vehemently disagree with now?

 

Nope, you are off by a mile on the evangelical accusation; you might want to get a handle on their doctrine before summarizing the thoughts of others.  Actually, it is the doctrine of the LDS Church; you may have heard of it before.  We are called the Mormons.  It is based on the scriptural text found in 3 Nephi 19:23.  

 

What do you think the adjustment factor is when the apostles were touched by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2?  It was instantaneous.  Do you really think the adjustment to truth is an extended period when the Savior stands before you in judgement?  

 

There is no opportunity for debate; the truth is revealed in fullness because the veil is gone.  When you talked of heaven I assumed you meant after the judgement rather than before.  They are two vastly different periods of time.

[CV75]

...unless you really didn't think you needed to, and then you wouldn't.

Right?

Can you offer any clarification on how you would supposedly find out that you were wrong about something?

The same way I do now -- there is no "supposedly" about it!

[JLHPROF]

  When you talked of heaven I assumed you meant after the judgement rather than before.  They are two vastly different periods of time.

 

They are.  Which is why the doctrine you are espousing doesn't apply to the situation I am discussing.

[Ahab]

This is kind of the crux of this thread. Great post.

The idea that we will all agree when we get to the other side isn't scriptural. The war in heaven showed us that just being with God and Christ in the spirit doesn't make us agree with them.

But someone who doesn't agree with God doesn't necessarily and most likely doesn't believe he is wrong.

So that's why I've been asking what it would take for someone to think that they are wrong. Someone who goes over to the "other side" in death will still find people on both sides of an issue, with some thinking [such and such] is right and others who think the same thing is wrong. How is anyone ever going to decide to switch sides or change their minds then any differently than how we do now? Intelligent thoughts can't be forced on someone as if they will have no choice but to accept the most intelligent thoughts. People can have the stupidest and most sinful thoughts possible and still believe they are right while thinking that those who disagree with them are just wrong.

But nobody I've ever known intentionally thinks he is wrong about something, even if that means God ia the one who is wrong.

We all assume we will want Celestial glory and even exaltation. But what if it required a belief, practice, etc that right now we absolutely hate? How do we see ourselves adjusting to accept it or refusing the blessing in the next life.

By thinking what we are opposed to is wrong.

What IF a woman here found out that her husband there would rule over her? What if we found out that SS relationships couldn't exist or could exist in the next life? What if we found out polygamy was an absolute requirement if we want to keep our eternal companions? (To use three of the most often debated topics).

How would we adjust our thinking?

By thinking what we are opposed to is wrong, even if that meant God was wrong for requiring that from us.

That's really sweet. And I think that if you are willing to do ANYTHING God commands or requires to keep your eternal companionship then there is no danger of you losing it. All we need to do to receive a blessing from God is to fulfill the law upon which it is predicated and live worthy.

Or not. We don't have to do anything we think is wrong.

[thesometimesaint]

I'm sure everyone will have the opportunity to hear, and understand fully the gospel. We can't be saved in ignorance. God won't renege on his promises. Whether we accept all of his promised blessings is up to us.

[Ahab]

The same way I do now -- there is no "supposedly" about it!

So you would still have the same way to find out what is right and what is wrong and yet you think you might find out you were wrong later?

If you think you're right about something now, and you would still use the same way later to find out what is right and what is wrong, why would you ever think that what you think is right now is wrong later? Why would you be changing your mind?

[stemelbow]

Here's a little speculative thread inspired by the "opposing viewpoints" thread:

 

If you got to the other side and found out that "insert doctrinal thing you really don't like" were true, how would you come to terms with it?

 

I will give an example:

If I got to the other side and found out that "all the ordinance changes WERE approved by God" I would probably ask the prophets why they taught that it shouldn't be done.  I would be unable to dispute that they were right because God IS perfect, so I would have to accept that the gospel is more subjective and malleable than I have always believed.

 

I've always joked that I'd like the job of greeting atheists as they pass through the veil or letting all the evangelicals know that Mormonism was the true religion after all.  But that is a bit of silly humour.

What discovery upon passing through the veil would absolutely blow your mind and how would you handle it?

 

Some possible items:

- What if women really do end up subject to their husbands eternally?

- What if Joseph Smith really is going to judge us all?

- What if polygamy is required for the highest exaltation?

- What if our leaders were right about all their current teachings, even the ones we don't like?

- What if our leaders were wrong about many of the current teachings we hold fast to?

- What if God is displeased with a position we took?

- What if God/Heavenly Father really is Adam from the garden?

- What if women really can/cannot hold the priesthood?

- What if SS relationships did/did not exist beyond the veil?

 

These are just some topics that have come up again and again on this board.  How would you handle it if your position turned out to be completely wrong?

So how would you handle it if something you truly believe turns out to be false?

I'd shrug my shoulders and say, "oops...I guess we were bound to make errors having such a mirky view of things. Now that I can see clearly, I'm happy it makes sense to me."

[JLHPROF]

I'm sure everyone will have the opportunity to hear, and understand fully the gospel. We can't be saved in ignorance. God won't renege on his promises. Whether we accept all of his promised blessings is up to us.

 

Agreed,

But the topic of this thread isn't whether we get to learn the truth.  Of course we do.

The topic is the shock factor when we cross through and find out something we firmly believed wrong was right or right was wrong.

The topic is how we will come to accept something that right now we firmly believe the opposite on.

 

Imagine the initial shock of an atheist finding out that there actually is a God.  Someone like Hitchens who based their life's work arguing that there isn't a God in a single moment finding out that there is, and that he is the God of Mormonism.  It's safe to say that Hitchens is no longer an atheist.  How did he handle that change?

 

Imagine the initial shock of a feminist finding out that her husband will be her head in eternity.  Or of a chauvinistic man finding out that he won't be the head of his family and has to share power equally with his wife (assuming he even gets to keep her).

 

The sectarian Christians get very angry if you suggest that Joseph Smith might judge them before Christ does.  Imagine their reaction when they are told to stand before Joseph and be judged?  How will that be handled?

 

To assume because the spirit is there that this will all go over easily doesn't fly.  I agree with Stormrider that by the time judgement has been and gone we will all have adjusted to reality.  But what about that initial shock?

Edited March 26, 2015 by JLHPROF

[thesometimesaint]

Agreed,

But the topic of this thread isn't whether we get to learn the truth.  Of course we do.

The topic is the shock factor when we cross through and find out something we firmly believed wrong was right or right was wrong.

The topic is how we will come to accept something that right now we firmly believe the opposite on.

 

Imagine the initial shock of an atheist finding out that there actually is a God.  Someone like Hitchens who based their life's work arguing that there isn't a God in a single moment finding out that there is, and that he is the God of Mormonism.

 

Imagine the initial shock of a feminist finding out that her husband will be her head in eternity.  Or of a chauvinistic man finding out that he won't be the head of his family.

 

To assume because the spirit is there that this will all go over easily doesn't fly.  I agree with Stormrider that by the time judgement has been and gone we will all have adjusted to reality.  But what about that initial shock?

 

I think we all have plenty to learn, and maybe even shocked about. If our Hindu friends are correct, and I don't believe they are, then I'm sure whatever one of that 2000 aspects of God will see the intent of my heart and I wouldn't come back as a dung beetle.

[Ahab]

I used to think so. Then I found someone who vehemently declared that if she found out God felt one way about an issue then she would not want to be in heaven with him.

Probably because she thought God would be the one who is wrong, not her. She felt right about what she was saying, right?

Maybe it is just my imperfect self and most are not like me, but when I am honest with myself, I find I am rebellious. I will find myself thinking, "I know I shouldn't do that, but I don't care. I want to." Not over anything big, but I think the actions and thinking are dangerous.

Different issue, I think. I get that we don't always live up to how we think we should live, the right way. The issue in this thread as I understand it is about what we would do if we found out that what we think is right is really wrong. And I'm asking how we would know it was wrong if we are thinking it is right.

Bur this is not misunderstanding what someone is talking about. This is about knowing how to tell if WE are right or wrong about [sonething].

So no, I don't think everyone will make those adjustments over doctrine.

I don't either, with those who are wrong still thinking they are right.

Personally, most doctrine I think I could make the adjustment in my thinking, but I may ask lots of why or how questions.

I'm thinking more about when you get to the point when you have made up your mind rather than still being open to more discovery and research. When you think sonething is right, why would you switch to thinking it was really wrong, or vice versa?

There is one thing only I think that will take a lot of adjustment on. That's if my husband and I could not be together, even if being exaltation worthy. The closer I get to him the more I hate to be apart from him. I cannot imagine being told I could be with him for eternity, feeling the way I do now or growing even closer together and being told, "oh. Well, you were wrong about that." I honestly don't know how I would deal with that one, but could imagine being quite angry.

But why would you ever think you would be wrong about that? When someone tells me I can't be with my wife forever, and she wants to be with me as much as I want to be with her, as husband and wife, and we do what we know it takes to be together forever, I just say something like: Nope, you're wrong about that, because I know we can be. And I will never feel like or believe that I am wrong about that. Edited March 26, 2015 by Ahab

[danielwoods]

Agreed,

But the topic of this thread isn't whether we get to learn the truth.  Of course we do.

The topic is the shock factor when we cross through and find out something we firmly believed wrong was right or right was wrong.

The topic is how we will come to accept something that right now we firmly believe the opposite on.

 

Imagine the initial shock of an atheist finding out that there actually is a God.  Someone like Hitchens who based their life's work arguing that there isn't a God in a single moment finding out that there is, and that he is the God of Mormonism.  It's safe to say that Hitchens is no longer an atheist.  How did he handle that change?

 

Imagine the initial shock of a feminist finding out that her husband will be her head in eternity.  Or of a chauvinistic man finding out that he won't be the head of his family and has to share power equally with his wife (assuming he even gets to keep her).

 

The sectarian Christians get very angry if you suggest that Joseph Smith might judge them before Christ does.  Imagine their reaction when they are told to stand before Joseph and be judged?  How will that be handled?

 

To assume because the spirit is there that this will all go over easily doesn't fly.  I agree with Stormrider that by the time judgement has been and gone we will all have adjusted to reality.  But what about that initial shock?

 

The amount of shock is directly related to the amount of error one firmly believes. To say it a different way, the closer one is to God, the less shock one will experience. 

 

How one handles shock depends on one's attitude. 

[Ahab]

Agreed,

But the topic of this thread isn't whether we get to learn the truth. Of course we do.

Everybody? ALL truth? Pfftt. Yeah, right.

Keep hoping and praying, buddy bro, but you may not ever even know if all will.

The topic is the shock factor when we cross through and find out something we firmly believed wrong was right or right was wrong.

The topic is how we will come to accept something that right now we firmly believe the opposite on.

You'll always have the choice to keep believing whatever you believe now or to believe something different. Nobody else is ever going to be able to make you change your mind, but you'll be able to change it if you want to.

Imagine the initial shock of an atheist finding out that there actually is a God. Someone like Hitchens who based their life's work arguing that there isn't a God in a single moment finding out that there is, and that he is the God of Mormonism. It's safe to say that Hitchens is no longer an atheist. How did he handle that change?

He just changed his mind, if he did. But he can change it back if he wants to and either way he won't believe he is wrong.

Imagine the initial shock of a feminist finding out that her husband will be her head in eternity. Or of a chauvinistic man finding out that he won't be the head of his family and has to share power equally with his wife (assuming he even gets to keep her).

Anytime anyone changes his or her own mind it's because they want to and whatever choice they make they will believe they are right or that they are acting against what they think is right on purpose. But people can still feel right about something even if it is wrong.

The sectarian Christians get very angry if you suggest that Joseph Smith might judge them before Christ does. Imagine their reaction when they are told to stand before Joseph and be judged? How will that be handled?

Pfftt. They probably won't even believe that he is Joseph Smith.

To assume because the spirit is there that this will all go over easily doesn't fly. I agree with Stormrider that by the time judgement has been and gone we will all have adjusted to reality. But what about that initial shock?

Have you ever seen how some people just scoff or ignore you when you tell them something that is true while they continue to believe contrary to what you have told them? When they continue to believe something that is wrong even after you've told them the truth? Even our Lord has gotten that reaction from others! Are you imagining a day when people will have no choice but to believe what is true?

Your whole "of course everybody is going to accept what is true" is just a pipe dream, I think. We'll always have our agency and that means we'll always be able to believe whatever we want to believe.

[CV75]

So you would still have the same way to find out what is right and what is wrong and yet you think you might find out you were wrong later?

Yes, I would continue to use the same spiritual process in a different setting that may or may not be all that difficult to adjust to—just like now! The idea is to continually improve upon my ability to use the process and attendant resources the Lord affords me whether in the current physical or in the spirit world (“I’m not dead yet!”).

 

If you think you're right about something now, and you would still use the same way later to find out what is right and what is wrong, why would you ever think that what you think is right now is wrong later? Why would you be changing your mind?

Because: repentance is always an option until the great and last day.

 

"Finding" applies to both faith and knowledge.

[CV75]

The topic is the shock factor when we cross through and find out something we firmly believed wrong was right or right was wrong.

The topic is how we will come to accept something that right now we firmly believe the opposite on.

 

***

But what about that initial shock?

I think they key to that kind of adjustment is humility.

[Ahab]

Yes, I would continue to use the same spiritual process in a different setting that may or may not be all that difficult to adjust to—just like now! The idea is to continually improve upon my ability to use the process and attendant resources the Lord affords me whether in the current physical or in the spirit world (“I’m not dead yet!”).

So is the distinction between only what you kinda think is right but are not sure about now, vs what you know God has told you is right? Between your thoughts and his thoughts? So it isn't that God is switching from right to wrong on the same issue when he lets you know what is right but your own ideas coming more into harmony and in sync with God's thoughts. Or at least I think that's what you are talking about.

Because: repentance is always an option until the great and last day.

But you don't repent when you think you are right. Right? If you thought you were right about something then you wouldn't even think about repenting from that, or at least not seriously.

"Finding" applies to both faith and knowledge.

But when you find the truth on an issue you don't really need to keep looking for it on that issue. You just continue to add upon that testimony from God.

[Teancum]

Here's a little speculative thread inspired by the "opposing viewpoints" thread:

 

If you got to the other side and found out that "insert doctrinal thing you really don't like" were true, how would you come to terms with it?

 

I will give an example:

If I got to the other side and found out that "all the ordinance changes WERE approved by God" I would probably ask the prophets why they taught that it shouldn't be done.  I would be unable to dispute that they were right because God IS perfect, so I would have to accept that the gospel is more subjective and malleable than I have always believed.

 

I've always joked that I'd like the job of greeting atheists as they pass through the veil or letting all the evangelicals know that Mormonism was the true religion after all.  But that is a bit of silly humour.

What discovery upon passing through the veil would absolutely blow your mind and how would you handle it?

 

Some possible items:

- What if women really do end up subject to their husbands eternally?

- What if Joseph Smith really is going to judge us all?

- What if polygamy is required for the highest exaltation?

- What if our leaders were right about all their current teachings, even the ones we don't like?

- What if our leaders were wrong about many of the current teachings we hold fast to?

- What if God is displeased with a position we took?

- What if God/Heavenly Father really is Adam from the garden?

- What if women really can/cannot hold the priesthood?

- What if SS relationships did/did not exist beyond the veil?

 

These are just some topics that have come up again and again on this board.  How would you handle it if your position turned out to be completely wrong?

So how would you handle it if something you truly believe turns out to be false?

What if the opposite of each of your propisitions is the case? Which is most likely?

[JLHPROF]

What if the opposite of each of your propisitions is the case? Which is most likely?

 

I did try to include both sides of each.  For example - - What if women really can/cannot hold the priesthood?

 

Again, the question isn't about likeliness.  This discussion is centered around how we deal with suddenly learning our firm position was actually wrong.  When we die we will suddenly be faced with a new situation that may require we give up some firmly held convictions.  How would we handle that?  How would we handle finding out something we had believed our whole life and argued for/against was actually not what we claimed?

[Rain]

Duplicate

Edited March 27, 2015 by Rain

[Rain]

Different issue, I think. I get that we don't always live up to how we think we should live, the right way. The issue in this thread as I understand it is about what we would do if we found out that what we think is right is really wrong. And I'm asking how we would know it was wrong if we are thinking it is right.[\quote]

I told a story about when I was 4 to a number of people. One day I was talking to my mom about it. She told me that part of the story didn't happen. It didn't even occur to me to disbelieve her and continue thinking I was right. She was older. Had a better knowledge and understanding than I did. I knew she was right.

Since God is more knowledgeable than my mom I just don't see me disbelieving him when he tells me I am wrong on some things. But I do see some refusing to believe they are wrong.

But why would you ever think you would be wrong about that? When someone tells me I can't be with my wife forever, and she wants to be with me as much as I want to be with her, as husband and wife, and we do what we know it takes to be together forever, I just say something like: Nope, you're wrong about that, because I know we can be. And I will never feel like or believe that I am wrong about that.

It has nothing to do with thinking I might be wrong. The question deals with imagination. I imagined getting to the other side and God saying, "you were wrong about that" and then imagined how I would feel.

If you can't imagine that then you really can't answer the question. It has nothing to do with how right I feel I am or if I am right at all. Or even reality. Imagination is the only way it will work.

[Ahab]

So now I'm back to 3 options:

1) I go "Oh" and just change my mind so that I'm not wrong anymore. This option would only apply if I think I see a good reason to change my mind, though.

2) Stick to my idea that I think I am right about. This would be an open option even if somebody told me I was wrong, too.

3) Hmm. I thought I had thought of another option. Nevermind.

[Freedom]

You've taken issue with many doctrines on this board that you disagree with vehemently.  What if you were to find out one was actually right?  How would you adjust?

I disagree with many interpretations. I don't take issue with any doctrines. I cannot think of a single concept that I would be concerned about. There are some interpretations of the scripture that may be true but in my opinion are not strongly supported. I don't believe them to be wrong, just unsubstantiated. 

[CV75]

So is the distinction between only what you kinda think is right but are not sure about now, vs what you know God has told you is right? Between your thoughts and his thoughts? So it isn't that God is switching from right to wrong on the same issue when he lets you know what is right but your own ideas coming more into harmony and in sync with God's thoughts. Or at least I think that's what you are talking about.

But you don't repent when you think you are right. Right? If you thought you were right about something then you wouldn't even think about repenting from that, or at least not seriously.

But when you find the truth on an issue you don't really need to keep looking for it on that issue. You just continue to add upon that testimony from God.

It is all about humbly submitting and conforming to God’s will. I know the Book or Mormon is true. As I change my life to reflect that knowledge, I gain a broader and deeper knowledge and understanding of its truthfulness and what it means.

 

I take the opportunities as they come—pride would dictate that I not be open to growth; humility is receptive to truth. We don't only repent from evil, we can repent from good to better and from better to best, unto exaltation. So pride and humility are certainly factors in how (and how well) we gain knowledge, and of what.

 

For me, adding upon a truth is changing (increasing) what I know to be true, and this improves (changes) my knowledge. I see this as repentance.

[Ahab]

It is all about humbly submitting and conforming to God’s will. I know the Book or Mormon is true. As I change my life to reflect that knowledge, I gain a broader and deeper knowledge and understanding of its truthfulness and what it means.

I take the opportunities as they come—pride would dictate that I not be open to growth; humility is receptive to truth. We don't only repent from evil, we can repent from good to better and from better to best, unto exaltation. So pride and humility are certainly factors in how (and how well) we gain knowledge, and of what.

For me, adding upon a truth is changing (increasing) what I know to be true, and this improves (changes) my knowledge. I see this as repentance.

That's all well and good, but I was thinking more in terms of going from my idea of right to someone else's idea that what I think is right is wrong, especially when I am really sure that I am right based on testimony that I am sure I have received from God.

It's not as if I'm open to changing my mind just because "some" people think I am wrong, even when they say they are sure that I am wrong based on what they say God has told them.

I go by my own personal testimony from God, not the testimony that other people say is from God, and I am sure that God would not tell me something that is wrong even if other people think God has told them it is wrong.

Just imagine yourself going to the "other side" when you die with someone coming to you and telling you about some things you did and believed that were wrong, while also telling you that he is God. Are you going to accept whatever he tells you just because he said he is God? What if you were sure you were right about those things, though? And what if during this life here you felt sure that God had told you those things were right, even though this person who says he is God is now telling you that those same things are wrong? Which version of God would you believe?

I'm already fully aware that there is more than one person who claims to be God and that some of them are experts in deceit, so even if some person who claims to be God is telling me I am wrong about something I am going to stick to what the person I refer to as God has told me.

It's one thing to be humble and receptive to inspiration/revelation but we have to be careful about being naive and ignorant of who is talking to us.

[Jeanne]

First of all there would be a lot of " ya buts " expressed.

Ya but I was taught

Ya but the Bible says

Ya but what about...

Perhaps some would convince themselves that what they experience is not the REAL reality.

This is how I live now..ya but...ya but...I was taught some things hat are not taught now...but yeah...