Spanish Fork Police Officers "hear A Voice" - Leads To Rescue Of Trapped Toddler

[Scott Lloyd]

I posted this story on facebook - my cyncial sister asked "what if they missed another person"...

That thought occurred to me -- though you'd think that would be known by now.

[Robert F. Smith]

................................................................   

-I believe the men described in the article could have heard a voice, and that this voice was a prompting from God.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks, Smac,

But three things come to mind: (1) to hear the voice, those first responders had to be open to it;  (2) the Lord makes it to rain upon both the just and the unjust -- He is no respecter of persons (meaning he does not discriminate, but holds all equal before the law); and (3) God is not a control-freak; He gives us wide latitude to make mistakes and to succeed -- this test is real, and not for the faint of heart.

[Scott Lloyd]

Cognitively though, saying "help US" would be pretty impressive. Most babies don't understand simple pronouns until 2 1/2 and the concept of "us" is even more difficult.

Still. Miracles happen.

Yes. And, now that I think about it, even if the baby did have some limited ability to speak, under normal circumstances, an infant of that age would be more apt to cry out in distress than to try to articulate a sentence.

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks, Smac,

But three things come to mind: (1) to hear the voice, those first responders had to be open to it;  (2) the Lord makes it to rain upon both the just and the unjust -- He is no respecter of persons (meaning he does not discriminate, but holds all equal before the law); and (3) God is not a control-freak; He gives us wide latitude to make mistakes and to succeed -- this test is real, and not for the faint of heart.

While He is no respecter of persons, He does answer earnest prayers in accordance with His own will. I should think a first responder in a crisis situation, even if not a churchgoer, would be apt to utter a silent prayer in the moment which a benevolent Almighty would be disposed to answer, perhaps in a miraculous way.

[rpn]

The accounts I read seemed to say that two heard different words than the other two did.  That could be just as they remember  it.   But it could also be that they each heard what they needed to react.

[Scott Lloyd]

The accounts I read seemed to say that two heard different words than the other two did.  That could be just as they remember  it.   But it could also be that they each heard what they needed to react.

The accounts I read seemed to say that two heard different words than the other two did.  That could be just as they remember  it.   But it could also be that they each heard what they needed to react.

Makes me recall accounts of the transfiguration of Brigham Young during the succession crisis in Nauvoo. Many testified they saw and/or heard and/or felt something, though it wasn't identical in every instance and, with one source, wasn't even on the same day as the others.

[Whiskeypete]

We believe in the gift of tongues, and the gift of interpretation of tongues. God can influence both what/how the speaker speaks, and how the hearer hears.

There is no reason why the voice they heard couldn't have been the voice of the child simply crying out, and the words they heard are how they were prompted to interpret them. 

 

From a scientific perspective:
Audio pareidolia is a very common phenomenon. Also human memories and perceptions are remarkably flexible. They all hear a cry, one or more of them interprets it as a cry for help. When recounting the experience, the others rescuers' memories are influenced by the first statements on the events.





 

[tonie]

Based on the Police body cam video, the vehicle was partially submerged. It does not appear that the drivers side was submerged. It also appears that the baby was in the passenger seat behind the driver.

 

As for the hearing the voice, I am shocked at the discussion about it.

 

Moroni 7

 

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, ... Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

[Mark Beesley]

Based on the Police body cam video, the vehicle was partially submerged. It does not appear that the drivers side was submerged. It also appears that the baby was in the passenger seat behind the driver.

As for the hearing the voice, I am shocked at the discussion about it.

I am more shocked that anyone could ever be shocked by anything they read on the Internet.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Mark Beesley

[Kenngo1969]

Based on the Police body cam video, the vehicle was partially submerged. It does not appear that the drivers side was submerged. It also appears that the baby was in the passenger seat behind the driver.

 

As for the hearing the voice, I am shocked at the discussion about it. ....

 

 

 

I am more shocked that anyone could ever be shocked by anything they read on the Internet.

Oh, yeah?  Well, I'm shocked that your shocked that anyone would be shocked!  

 

The whole thing simply is shocking all the way around, I'd say!

 

And Tonie, I don't understand your shock.  (As I say, I'm shocked that anyone would be shocked. )  I don't know that anyone who has contributed to the discussion has attempted to remove this occurrence from the realm of the miraculous as much as they've engaged in some speculation as to the means by which the miracle was wrought.  There is a difference ... at least to me.

[tonie]

  I don't know that anyone who has contributed to the discussion has attempted to remove this occurrence from the realm of the miraculous as much as they've engaged in some speculation as to the means by which the miracle was wrought.  There is a difference ... at least to me.

 

At least one here has argued that the mother could have survived long enough to call out. And when it was posted that the mother died in the crash, that individual continued to argue. And has argued that a baby of 18 months could speak.

[Kenngo1969]

At least one here has argued that the mother could have survived long enough to call out. And when it was posted that the mother died in the crash, that individual continued to argue. And has argued that a baby of 18 months could speak.

I don't see either one of those possibilities as necessarily attempting to remove this event from the realm of the miraculous.  I'm quite certain his faith is at least as strong as that of any of the devout who frequent this corner of Cyber space.  (At least, I have no reason to doubt that.)  I think the Lord often works by the principle of using the minimum intervention necessary to accomplish His purposes, whatever they are.  He's not above sending an angel (or doing something equally miraculous), if that's what it takes. On the other hand, perhaps He did allow this child's mother to live long enough to alert rescuers to the presence of her baby. Perhaps, after having been alerted that her time had come, she was allowed to linger long enough to do that.  Or perhaps the child's tongue was loosed for the same purpose.  I don't see either one of those possibilities as less miraculous.

 

My older half-brother died yesterday.  (He had been seriously injured several years ago, so it was not unexpected.)  Although he was not active in the Church for most of his life, between the time he was injured and his passing, he received both the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods, and was preparing to receive Temple ordinances.  As for the circumstances surrounding his passing, a blood clot traveled to his heart and caused him to go into cardiac arrest.  He was in cardiac arrest for 24 minutes before his heartbeat was restored (though he presumably underwent CPR during most of that time.)  The doctor said that more tests, such as an EEG would be necessary to determine his condition.  After our dad gave him a blessing, he was alert and was able, by responding to yes-or-no questions, to indicate his wishes regarding further treatment, and to receive the individual goodbyes of each family member present before having life-sustaining care removed, after which he eventually passed on.

 

The doctor said he'd never seen anything like that happen before.  If I were to posit that perhaps the CPR maintained his circulation well enough to prevent brain damage that would have been serious enough to prevent him from communicating his wishes and from being alert enough to receive the goodbyes of family members, would such a supposition, in your mind, remove the events preceding his passing from the realm of the miraculous?  I think what happened to my brother (I don't bother with tangled familial distinctions simply because we happen to have only one parent, rather than both parents, in common) was miraculous; it's good enough for me if a doctor says he's never seen anything like that happen before.

[Scott Lloyd]

At least one here has argued that the mother could have survived long enough to call out. And when it was posted that the mother died in the crash, that individual continued to argue. And has argued that a baby of 18 months could speak.

 

 

I don't see either one of those possibilities as necessarily attempting to remove this event from the realm of the miraculous.  I'm quite certain his faith is at least as strong as that of any of the devout who frequent this corner of Cyber space.  (At least, I have no reason to doubt that.)  I think the Lord often works by the principle of using the minimum intervention necessary to accomplish His purposes, whatever they are.  He's not above sending an angel (or doing something equally miraculous), if that's what it takes. On the other hand, perhaps He did allow this child's mother to live long enough to alert rescuers to the presence of her baby. Perhaps, after having been alerted that her time had come, she was allowed to linger long enough to do that.  Or perhaps the child's tongue was loosed for the same purpose.  I don't see either one of those possibilities as less miraculous.

 

My older half-brother died yesterday.  (He had been seriously injured several years ago, so it was not unexpected.)  Although he was not active in the Church for most of his life, between the time he was injured and his passing, he received both the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods, and was preparing to receive Temple ordinances.  As for the circumstances surrounding his passing, a blood clot traveled to his heart and caused him to go into cardiac arrest.  He was in cardiac arrest for 24 minutes before his heartbeat was restored (though he presumably underwent CPR during most of that time.)  The doctor said that more tests, such as an EEG would be necessary to determine his condition.  After our dad gave him a blessing, he was alert and was able, by responding to yes-or-no questions, to indicate his wishes regarding further treatment, and to receive the individual goodbyes of each family member present before having life-sustaining care removed, after which he eventually passed on.

 

The doctor said he'd never seen anything like that happen before.  If I were to posit that perhaps the CPR maintained his circulation well enough to prevent brain damage that would have been serious enough to prevent him from communicating his wishes and from being alert enough to receive the goodbyes of family members, would such a supposition, in your mind, remove the events preceding his passing from the realm of the miraculous?  I think what happened to my brother (I don't bother with tangled familial distinctions simply because we happen to have only one parent, rather than both parents, in common) was miraculous; it's good enough for me if a doctor says he's never seen anything like that happen before.

It's obvious Tonie was referring to me here. In so doing, she totally misread me. Never mind. I'm used to that sort of thing from her by now.

But I do feel compelled now to state categorically for the record that I'm inclined to believe in the miraculous nature of what happened with the Spanish Fork officers (see my post #29 for verification of this). As you have intimated here, a thing need not be altogether unexplainable to be regarded as miraculous. My suggestions of means by which the miracle might have transpired were simply that: suggestions as I explored possibilities, certainly not "arguments," as tonie has mischaracterized them.

And you nailed it when you said such possibilities -- even if I were disposed to insist on them, which I'm not -- do not remove the event from the realm of the miraculous or undercut the possibility of divine intervention, notwithstanding poor tonie being "shocked."

 

Thank you for understanding my position so thoroughly, and thank you for so lucidly verbalizing it. It's remarkable that it should have been so severely misconstrued in the first place, but again, I'm used to that coming from tonie.

That's an amazing account about your half-brother; thank you for sharing it with us. And I'm sorry for your loss, expected though it was.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[GingerRed]

"Why are they so certain she was killed on impact?"

Probably the type of injuries she suffered....also possible rigor mortis, body temp and other ways they identify time of death.

 

She WAS killed on impact.   I work in the medical field and I found out from a reliable source, that the mothers head was almost completely decapitated.  That's what the first responders saw.   So no possible way she could have been the one to cry out, help me.

Edited March 16, 2015 by GingerRed

[Nofear]

Thanks for the update GingerRed.

[Kenngo1969]

She WAS killed on impact.   I work in the medical field and I found out from a reliable source, that the mothers head was almost completely decapitated.  That's what the first responders saw.   So no possible way she could have been the one to cry out, help me.

God, if He chose to do so, certainly could give even a (partially) decapitated mortal utterance in order to suit his purposes and to ensure the continuing mortal sojourn of one of His Precious Little Ones.  (If not giving the Little One him- or herself utterance.)  Heck, I've never had anything that dramatic happen to me, yet even I'm mindful of the smaller, simpler ways God has assured me that He is aware even of L'il Ol' Me.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

God, if He chose to do so, certainly could give even a (partially) decapitated mortal utterance in order to suit his purposes and to ensure the continuing mortal sojourn of one of His Precious Little Ones. (If not giving the Little One him- or herself utterance.) Heck, I've never had anything that dramatic happen to me, yet even I'm mindful of the smaller, simpler ways God has assured me that He is aware even of L'il Ol' Me.

Kenngo, sorry about your brother's passing, I hope all goes well.

[GingerRed]

God, if He chose to do so, certainly could give even a (partially) decapitated mortal utterance in order to suit his purposes and to ensure the continuing mortal sojourn of one of His Precious Little Ones.  (If not giving the Little One him- or herself utterance.)  Heck, I've never had anything that dramatic happen to me, yet even I'm mindful of the smaller, simpler ways God has assured me that He is aware even of L'il Ol' Me.

 

I don't think it was her or the baby. I think it was an intervening angel calling out to lead them to the car.   

[Kenngo1969]

Kenngo, sorry about your brother's passing, I hope all goes well.

Thank you, My Dear.  I certainly wouldn't wish many of the things that happened to him on my worst enemy: they were very difficult for him, but the way I look at it, he ... and Christ ... won.  Like Paul, he "fought a good fight, finished [his] course, and kept the faith."

 

I don't think it was her or the baby. I think it was an intervening angel calling out to lead them to the car.  

Regardless, it was miraculous in any event, in my book.  In no way do I wish to minimize the difficulty for families who have lost little ones under similar circumstances (whether in life or in death, God's purposes are not thwarted), but I do  know that He looks out for His Little Ones.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

Had the funeral today.  It was good ... got to see a lot of people I rarely see and some I've never, to the best of my knowledge, met before (the two "branches" of the family, which diverge at his mom and our dad, respectively, haven't had a lot of contact over the years).  I found out yesterday at the viewing that his mom read the (limited-edition! ) autobiography that I had printed for family and a few close friends a few years ago.  She said she really liked it; quite frankly, that shocked me, for two reasons: (1) I've given it to a lot of family members, but I don't remember giving it to her; I don't think I did.  I don't remember the last time we met before I saw her before we happened to be visiting my brother together in the hospital.  I think she found it when going through my brother's things. Finding it is one thing; actually reading it is another thing entirely.  I was honored and humbled that she'd take the time; and (2) it is explicit and unapologetic in its profession of faith, yet (and I don't mean this as an insult in any way: if she would describe herself as "spiritual but not religious," she's hardly alone in that regard ) she's not exactly what I would call "well-churched."

 

The service, though it was conducted by an LDS bishop, was quite informal.  Other than prayers and a life sketch, there wasn't much that might cause someone familiar with "typical" LDS funerals to conclude that this one fit that mold.  I was asked to give a prayer, but basically was told, "Be prepared to do anything else you might be called upon to do."  When I heard that, I thought, "You know what?  I probably won't be asked to speak, but I'm going to go ahead and imagine the one universe in an infinite number of possible universes in which that might happen."  And I prepared an address.  (It's not that I'm not comfortable speaking extemporaneously, or that I'm more comfortable simply reading from a prepared text, but I also don't like to ramble, and I've found that the more extensively prepared I am, the less I do that.)  Then I vacillated, and I thought, "But, I'm not going to be asked to speak, and besides, if the family wants something informal, aren't I disrespecting the family's wishes by preparing something formal, and don't I run the risk of offending people if I give them something they're more apt to find in a 'typical' LDS funeral if that's not what they want or expect?"  So I turned my prepared text into a letter to my niece and nephews/his children.

 

I was fiddling with it/thumbing through it at the viewing, and my niece asked me, "Uncle Ken, what's that?"  That was one moment of truth.  I almost lost my nerve and said, "I wrote you and your brothers a letter.  Here."  I was doing the same thing before the funeral, and the bishop asked me, "Are you planning on speaking?"  I almost lost my nerve again and said, "Nah!  This is just a letter to his children."  Instead, I said, "I don't know.  We'll see how things go."  When the bishop "opened up the mic," I heard Elvis Presley in my head singing, "It's now or never!"  I was the first person at the mic.  I prefaced my remarks by saying that I knew there might be people in attendance of different faiths (or of no faith), and that those who leaned LDS might have different levels of commitment, but, although it wasn't my desire to offend anybody and I wanted to offer hope and encouragement rather than despair and discouragement, I thought it was important to talk openly especially about the things my brother learned in the last four very difficult years of his life and about what his children (and others in attendance) might, in turn, learn from his example.

 

I thought it went well.  His mom leaned over and offered some effusive praise for what I said to my mom.  The bishop's closing remarks were quite short.  He told me, "I didn't think I had very much more to say!"  (I apologized for "stealing his thunder." )  My niece and nephews all complimented me.  I said, "Give God the praise; I'm a sinner!"

 

P.S.: I'm exhausted!   I'd like to sleep for the next 36 hours or so!

Edited March 20, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

Had the funeral today.  It was good ... got to see a lot of people I rarely see and some I've never, to the best of my knowledge, met before (the two "branches" of the family, which diverge at his mom and our dad, respectively, haven't had a lot of contact over the years).  I found out yesterday at the viewing that his mom read the (limited-edition! ) autobiography that I had printed for family and a few close friends a few years ago.  She said she really liked it; quite frankly, that shocked me, for two reasons: (1) I've given it to a lot of family members, but I don't remember giving it to her; I don't think I did.  I don't remember the last time we met before I saw her before we happened to be visiting my brother together in the hospital.  I think she found it when going through my brother's things. Finding it is one thing; actually reading it is another thing entirely.  I was honored and humbled that she'd take the time; and (2) it is explicit and unapologetic in its profession of faith, yet (and I don't mean this as an insult in any way: if she would describe herself as "spiritual but not religious," she's hardly alone in that regard ) she's not exactly what I would call "well-churched."

 

The service, though it was conducted by an LDS bishop, was quite informal.  Other than prayers and a life sketch, there wasn't much that might cause someone familiar with "typical" LDS funerals to conclude that this one fit that mold.  I was asked to give a prayer, but basically was told, "Be prepared to do anything else you might be called upon to do."  When I heard that, I thought, "You know what?  I probably won't be asked to speak, but I'm going to go ahead and imagine the one universe in an infinite number of possible universes in which that might happen."  And I prepared an address.  (It's not that I'm not comfortable speaking extemporaneously, or that I'm more comfortable simply reading from a prepared text, but I also don't like to ramble, and I've found that the more extensively prepared I am, the less I do that.)  Then I vacillated, and I thought, "But, I'm not going to be asked to speak, and besides, if the family wants something informal, aren't I disrespecting the family's wishes by preparing something formal, and don't I run the risk of offending people if I give them something they're more apt to find in a 'typical' LDS funeral if that's not what they want or expect?"  So I turned my prepared text into a letter to my niece and nephews/his children.

 

I was fiddling with it/thumbing through it at the viewing, and my niece asked me, "Uncle Ken, what's that?"  That was one moment of truth.  I almost lost my nerve and said, "I wrote you and your brothers a letter.  Here."  I was doing the same thing before the funeral, and the bishop asked me, "Are you planning on speaking?"  I almost lost my nerve again and said, "Nah!  This is just a letter to his children."  Instead, I said, "I don't know.  We'll see how things go."  When the bishop "opened up the mic," I heard Elvis Presley in my head singing, "It's now or never!"  I was the first person at the mic.  I prefaced my remarks by saying that I knew there might be people in attendance of different faiths (or of no faith), and that those who leaned LDS might have different levels of commitment, but, although it wasn't my desire to offend anybody and I wanted to offer hope and encouragement rather than despair and discouragement, I thought it was important to talk openly especially about the things my brother learned in the last four very difficult years of his life and about what his children (and others in attendance) might, in turn, learn from his example.

 

I thought it went well.  His mom leaned over and offered some effusive praise for what I said to my mom.  The bishop's closing remarks were quite short.  He told me, "I didn't think I had very much more to say!"  (I apologized for "stealing his thunder." )  My niece and nephews all complimented me.  I said, "Give God the praise; I'm a sinner!"

 

P.S.: I'm exhausted!   I'd like to sleep for the next 36 hours or so!

Well done, Kenngo. God bless you and your extended family.

[Calm]

What Scott said. And rest well.

Edited March 20, 2015 by calmoriah

[Kenngo1969]

Well done, Kenngo. God bless you and your extended family.

Thank you, Sir.

[Tacenda]

Had the funeral today. It was good ... got to see a lot of people I rarely see and some I've never, to the best of my knowledge, met before (the two "branches" of the family, which diverge at his mom and our dad, respectively, haven't had a lot of contact over the years). I found out yesterday at the viewing that his mom read the (limited-edition! ) autobiography that I had printed for family and a few close friends a few years ago. She said she really liked it; quite frankly, that shocked me, for two reasons: (1) I've given it to a lot of family members, but I don't remember giving it to her; I don't think I did. I don't remember the last time we met before I saw her before we happened to be visiting my brother together in the hospital. I think she found it when going through my brother's things. Finding it is one thing; actually reading it is another thing entirely. I was honored and humbled that she'd take the time; and (2) it is explicit and unapologetic in its profession of faith, yet (and I don't mean this as an insult in any way: if she would describe herself as "spiritual but not religious," she's hardly alone in that regard ) she's not exactly what I would call "well-churched."

The service, though it was conducted by an LDS bishop, was quite informal. Other than prayers and a life sketch, there wasn't much that might cause someone familiar with "typical" LDS funerals to conclude that this one fit that mold. I was asked to give a prayer, but basically was told, "Be prepared to do anything else you might be called upon to do." When I heard that, I thought, "You know what? I probably won't be asked to speak, but I'm going to go ahead and imagine the one universe in an infinite number of possible universes in which that might happen." And I prepared an address. (It's not that I'm not comfortable speaking extemporaneously, or that I'm more comfortable simply reading from a prepared text, but I also don't like to ramble, and I've found that the more extensively prepared I am, the less I do that.) Then I vacillated, and I thought, "But, I'm not going to be asked to speak, and besides, if the family wants something informal, aren't I disrespecting the family's wishes by preparing something formal, and don't I run the risk of offending people if I give them something they're more apt to find in a 'typical' LDS funeral if that's not what they want or expect?" So I turned my prepared text into a letter to my niece and nephews/his children.

I was fiddling with it/thumbing through it at the viewing, and my niece asked me, "Uncle Ken, what's that?" That was one moment of truth. I almost lost my nerve and said, "I wrote you and your brothers a letter. Here." I was doing the same thing before the funeral, and the bishop asked me, "Are you planning on speaking?" I almost lost my nerve again and said, "Nah! This is just a letter to his children." Instead, I said, "I don't know. We'll see how things go." When the bishop "opened up the mic," I heard Elvis Presley in my head singing, "It's now or never!" I was the first person at the mic. I prefaced my remarks by saying that I knew there might be people in attendance of different faiths (or of no faith), and that those who leaned LDS might have different levels of commitment, but, although it wasn't my desire to offend anybody and I wanted to offer hope and encouragement rather than despair and discouragement, I thought it was important to talk openly especially about the things my brother learned in the last four very difficult years of his life and about what his children (and others in attendance) might, in turn, learn from his example.

I thought it went well. His mom leaned over and offered some effusive praise for what I said to my mom. The bishop's closing remarks were quite short. He told me, "I didn't think I had very much more to say!" (I apologized for "stealing his thunder." ) My niece and nephews all complimented me. I said, "Give God the praise; I'm a sinner!"

P.S.: I'm exhausted! I'd like to sleep for the next 36 hours or so!

You say you want sleep? Well deserved, well deserved!

I'd have loved to have heard you speak. Especially since what you post here is so well written, I'll bet you made a huge difference in many lives, especially your brother's children.

[Kenngo1969]

What Scott said. And rest well.

I did, and thank you.