Eternal Increase And Eternal Progression

[california boy]

If you are speaking about eternal progression of glory, then yes, the only way to progress eternally in glory is through increase of children.  "Billions" of children is not even close to seeing the big picture.   God is glorified through us.  We are his work and glory.  Without children, God would be no God and there would be no glory. 

 

So I take it that it is fundamental to your eternal life to looking forward to having billions of children.  Is it something you talk to your wife about?  Do you have any thoughts on how these billions of spirits are created?

[california boy]

 

The 1997 version of Gospel Principles explains it with more clarification.

 

All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become

like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass

the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

 

Regards,

Jim

 

 

So if that is true, are you in the camp that believes that anyone in any of the kingdoms could progress to become like God?

[Pahoran]

Fanny Young, I believe. President Young's older sister. That is one of my favorite stories from the Nauvoo period.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the standard take on "Eternal Progression", as described in "The Seer" and often talked about in our LDS culture, was disowned by the First Presidency. You know the story - infinite number of children until you get your own planet. I thought it was pretty clear that the celestialized earth is our eventual home. I'm not being contenscious, I just think there is much confusion about Eternal Increase/Eternal Progression that dates back to "The Seer". I'd love to hear more opinions on this issue.

Latter-day Saints don't rely upon "The Seer." Few modern members have ever heard of it, since it is almost exclusively quote-mined, with nefarious intent, by anti-Mormons.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

I have noticed that it is a fairly common apologetic malpractice to attribute any uncomfortable nineteenth century doctrines to The Seer and then dismiss them saying it was all disavowed by the first presidency.

Really?

Examples, please?

What I have noticed is that it is fairly common anti-Mormon polemical malpractice to quote-mine "The Seer" for any "uncomfortable nineteenth century doctrines" that are there to be found, and then (1) rip them out of their context, (2) suppress the fact that "The Seer" was repudiated, both by the First Presidency and by its author, and (3) pretend that publications of that stripe had the same kind of official standing as does "The Ensign" in our day.

But I've never, ever, on any occasion, ever, come across an "apologist" (ugh!) who tried to dismiss some "uncomfortable nineteenth century doctrines" by attributing them to "The Seer."

Not even once.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

So if that is true, are you in the camp that believes that anyone in any of the kingdoms could progress to become like God?

FYI, Theplains Jim is not a Latter-day Saint.

Not only that, but he doesn't call himself a Mormon, either.

Regards,

Pahoran

[carbon dioxide]

Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?

I don't assume that God has "children" the same way that we have children.  If the Father and Mother have physical bodies, the Mother would not give birth to children without bodies anymore than us humans give birth to children without bodies.

[CV75]

Thanks for your answers.  I found your answers to be pretty insightful. I am certainly getting something out of these answers.  I hope others are as well.  

 

And yes, I would like to know whether your answer is yes or no to the bolded question.  Does your answer mean that having billions of offspring in the next life is not as important asn having faith in Christ?  Or rather than guess at what you mean, could you explain your thoughts a bit more?

You asked what the “driver” is – it is always faith, “the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth (Lectures on Faith [1985], 1).” Faith is the most important principle in properly following Christ and receiving the fulfillment of His promises, and eternal life is “the greatest of all the gifts of God (D&C 14:7),” the highest glory of which entails “a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever (D&C 132:19),” commonly referred to as eternal increase. That may not be as "important" to everyone as God has revealed it is important to Him, but it is important to me.

[thesometimesaint]

So what is it about being like God that you like?  

 

All knowledge, power, wisdom, love, kindness, mercy, in short every good thing that I'm not.

[smac97]

Except I am seeking the answer to a question,

A question which includes within it a tasteless caricature of some of the most sacred tenets of LDS belief.

I don't like such loaded questions. I don't like it when secularists question Catholics about their belief in "ritualized cannibalism/vampirism" (transubstantiation), or when Protestants are derided as "Jesus Freaks," and so on. Reducing LDS eschatological belief to being "thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom" fits in along with these.

not summarizing Mormon theology.

Well yes, actually, you did.

I want to know what members and whoever wants to comment feel about this subject.  I seek knowledge, not declair what I think.

An earnest seeker of knowledge would not resort to insulting caricature, as you have done.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ahab]

In another thread, Smac made a very interesting comment that I would like to discuss. This is what he said

I found this statement to be quite interesting. Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?

If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious.

I like knowing I won't have to produce every single one of my children myself, with them still being my children and me still being a Father to them, or one of their Fathers. Like how my children will go on to have their own children, and those children also having their own children, etc etc etc throughout all of eternity, so that I could continue to have children forever even if my wife and I stopped doing it ourselves. Like making baby machines that kept making babies without any more effort from us.

And making babies is just part of the fun for people with celestial glory. People with celestial glory are also the most intelligent people, with the glory of God being intelligence, so a lot of the appeal for me is in wanting to be as intelligent as our kind of being can possibly be.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Ahab

[pogi]

So I take it that it is fundamental to your eternal life to looking forward to having billions of children.  Is it something you talk to your wife about?  Do you have any thoughts on how these billions of spirits are created?

 

Yes, I do look at it as fundamental.  My wife and I do talk about the possibility of having children in the next life, as we are not able to have children in this life.  It is something that we look forward to.  I have no clue how it works.  Obviously, billions of children seems ridiculous and impossibly challenging from a mortal perspective.  I have faith that it will bring me the most joy and fulfillment and is the key to eternal progression in the eternal perspective however. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by pogi

[Pahoran]

Perhaps it is appropriate to cut to the chase here.

A continuation of the seeds forever, proceeding as it does from Eternal Marriage, is the sine qua non of Exaltation in LDS soteriology.

That is one reason (among many) why the notion of "same sex marriage" in the Temple is absurd and incoherent.

And why no genuine Latter-day Saints contemplate such a silly (and wicked) notion.

Regards,
Pahoran

[KevinG]

I have seven children, and my family is central to what my vision of celestial glory is.  However I never considered sex or procreation to be the highlight of the eternities, as much as companionship, parenting, counseling with family, and helping spirits grow.  If somewhere along the eternal stream of time I happen to hit one billion descendants or children, I guess I'd let someone hang a banner or bake me a cake...  but beyond that notable milestone- numbers is not what my vision of heaven is about.  It is more about the quality of each and every one of those relationships that come from my divine calling of fatherhood.

 

Our progression comes from obedience to God's laws (D&C 93) so my progression towards godhood (becoming a joint heir with Christ) or exaltation, is about sacrificing selfishness and loving others.  It is not about breeding programs.

Edited February 23, 2015 by KevinG

[pogi]

I have seven children, and my family is central to what my vision of celestial glory is.  However I never considered sex or procreation to be the highlight of the eternities, as much as companionship, parenting, counseling with family, and helping spirits grow.  If somewhere along the eternal stream of time I happen to hit one billion descendants or children, I guess I'd let someone hang a banner or bake me a cake...  but beyond that notable milestone- numbers is not what my vision of heaven is about.  It is more about the quality of each and every one of those relationships that come from my divine calling of fatherhood.

 

100 Trillion children is like 1 child to God (even that falls short), when you consider his "numberless" offspring like the sands of the sea.  Your billionth child in heaven will not even get you a Hallmark card.

Edited February 23, 2015 by pogi

[KevinG]

Your billionth child in heaven will not even get you a Hallmark card.

 

Surely he or she could pony up with a drawing or something?  

[Ahab]

I have seven children, and my family is central to what my vision of celestial glory is. However I never considered sex or procreation to be the highlight of the eternities, as much as companionship, parenting, counseling with family, and helping spirits grow. If somewhere along the eternal stream of time I happen to hit one billion descendants or children, I guess I'd let someone hang a banner or bake me a cake... but beyond that notable milestone- numbers is not what my vision of heaven is about. It is more about the quality of each and every one of those relationships that come from my divine calling of fatherhood.

Our progression comes from obedience to God's laws (D&C 93) so my progression towards godhood (becoming a joint heir with Christ) or exaltation, is about sacrificing selfishness and loving others. It is not about breeding programs.

Great points!

I imagine I'll continue to enjoy living a wonderful life with my wife without thinking too much about whether or not we are going to end up with another child in our lives. We'll know it will be a possibility if we do what we know "might" result in a child, of course, but until she says to me "I'm pregnant" I'm just going to be enjoying my life with my wife and however many children we already have. I won't really need to count them to know I am living a wonderful life.

[california boy]

A question which includes within it a tasteless caricature of some of the most sacred tenets of LDS belief.

I don't like such loaded questions. I don't like it when secularists question Catholics about their belief in "ritualized cannibalism/vampirism" (transubstantiation), or when Protestants are derided as "Jesus Freaks," and so on. Reducing LDS eschatological belief to being "thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom" fits in along with these.

Well yes, actually, you did.

An earnest seeker of knowledge would not resort to insulting caricature, as you have done.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Sorry you are so miffed at my question.  I really am not sure why you are so upset.  I am just trying to find out how important and interconnected this principle of having billions of children is.  And I wonder if there are some Mormons that are really not looking forward to having that many offspring.  What do they do?  Are they allowed to have such thoughts and still be on the path to godhood?  Are they automatically assigned a different degree in the Celestial Kingdom?  Or as my question was from the beginning, are there really any Mormons that even have the view of less offspring.

 

I don't think it should be offensive to you or anyone else to ask questions on this subject.  It seems like all the effort being put into working towards the Celestial Kingdom, one should know what to expect or have a vague idea of what it will be like up there.  As you know, there is very little doctrine on this subject.  So asking the opinion of members what their thoughts are should not be offensive.  Certainly no offense was intended.  And the question wasn't intended to be loaded.  How else do you ask the question about how members feel about having billions of offspring?  Or do you not think being a god involves billions of offspring and therefore you are offended by that idea?  How is the concept or talking about billions of offspring sacred?  I don't think I have been demeaning in any way.  I honestly have no idea where you are coming from.  Do you have a better way of phrasing the question to know how Mormons feel about the number of offspring that seems to be part of being a god?  Please feel free to correct me.

 

Does anyone else think this question is inappropriate to ask and is something we shouldn't talk about??  I just never heard it being a subject that should have some kind of special way to ask the question.

[california boy]

I like knowing I won't have to produce every single one of my children myself, with them still being my children and me still being a Father to them, or one of their Fathers. Like how my children will go on to have their own children, and those children also having their own children, etc etc etc throughout all of eternity, so that I could continue to have children forever even if my wife and I stopped doing it ourselves. Like making baby machines that kept making babies without any more effort from us.

And making babies is just part of the fun for people with celestial glory. People with celestial glory are also the most intelligent people, with the glory of God being intelligence, so a lot of the appeal for me is in wanting to be as intelligent as our kind of being can possibly be.

 

Thanks for your reply.  I get the concept that you are talking about.  I certainly look at my father who just turned 94 and the number of decendants he has is amazing.  But I also look at the number of children our Father in Heaven has.  It would be in the billions or probably trillions according to pogi.  The numbers would be stagering, even just for you and your wife, let alone their decendants.  Am I right on this???

[pogi]

And I wonder if there are some Mormons that are really not looking forward to having that many offspring.  What do they do?

 

That is a good question.  What does a God do with no offspring?  What is his/her work and glory if he is already omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient? What is his/her purpose and to what end?   

Edited February 23, 2015 by pogi

[california boy]

Perhaps it is appropriate to cut to the chase here.

A continuation of the seeds forever, proceeding as it does from Eternal Marriage, is the sine qua non of Exaltation in LDS soteriology.

That is one reason (among many) why the notion of "same sex marriage" in the Temple is absurd and incoherent.

And why no genuine Latter-day Saints contemplate such a silly (and wicked) notion.

Regards,

Pahoran

 

I agree you would have to have this point of view if you did believe  that it was essential to Exaltation.  Of course one little problem is that we don't really know how these spirits are created.  But certainly many LDS think both a man and a woman has to be involved.  So SSM would be eternally out as a possibility.  

 

But maybe not all couples want or need to have billions of offspring.  Where does that leave them?  Or are there any such couples that are active and working towards the Celestial Kingdom?  Hence the question.

[california boy]

That is a good question.  What does a God do with no offspring?  What is his/her work and glory? What is his/her purpose and to what end?

 

Maybe their job will be in creating unpopulated planets.  There are a heck of a lot of those floating around. 

[pogi]

Maybe their job will be in creating unpopulated planets.  There are a heck of a lot of those floating around. 

 

You see, but even those were created by God for God's children - the heavens and the stars in the firmament to give light and beauty to the life of his children.  Work is empty and meaningless when you are not doing it for somebody or something.  The other God's won't need your help creating the lifeless plants, they can do that themselves. 

Edited February 24, 2015 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

Maybe their job will be in creating unpopulated planets.  There are a heck of a lot of those floating around. 

 

The whole purpose of existence as a God is to perpetuate their race while progressing towards a higher order of kingdoms.

Take away that purpose and there are no new Gods being created and the entire progression of existence grinds to a halt.

 

We are all either progressing or regressing, there is NO stagnation.  We are either being added upon or losing that which we have.  The scriptures are clear on that principle.  And the path from this Telestial/Terrestrial (in the Millennium) sphere to the Celestial to Godhood requires children, either here or in the world to come.  It requires a Kingdom to rule over.

[Ahab]

Thanks for your reply. I get the concept that you are talking about. I certainly look at my father who just turned 94 and the number of decendants he has is amazing. But I also look at the number of children our Father in Heaven has. It would be in the billions or probably trillions according to pogi. The numbers would be stagering, even just for you and your wife, let alone their decendants. Am I right on this???

My point was more about how I will continue to have children through my children, rather than only through me and my wife directly. Look at how many we have had on this Earth already, with a bunch more still being born every day, and all of us coming here through Adam and Eve and their children. All our Father and Mother in heaven had to do was put Adam and Eve here and then shebam! All of the rest of us started coming here. And that's only for this one planet. Just imagine if our Father and Mother in heaven put other Adams and Eves on other planets at the same time they started this one. The numbers could get to be plenty staggering in almost no time.

But the number of us isn't all that matters. We're pretty smart, too, or at least some of us are, and we can become just as intelligent as the most intelligent among us.

[Calm]

That is a good question.  What does a God do with no offspring?  What is his/her work and glory if he is already omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient? What is his/her purpose and to what end?   

Babysitter?