Eternal Increase And Eternal Progression

[Bobbieaware]

I am a firm believer in eternal progression - knowledge, experience, power, glory, priesthood, and yes, family & kingdoms.

 

If the only reward to eternal increase was children I don't think I'd be as interested, but fortunately that is just one aspect.  There are kingdoms higher than Celestial (where God dwells) and I anticipate forever moving upwards and forever raising my posterity to follow, just as God does.

 

The idea of being stagnant is horrifying.

I used to firmly believe as you do. Now I'm keeping an open mind because, among many other similar quotes found throughout the scriptures, the Book of Mormon speaks of God saying, "there is nothing, save he knows it." Also, in the Lectures on Faith we are taught that if a man doesn't firmly believe God knows all things that he can't exercise faith in Him unto salvation. Now that's a biggie. How does one get around this? I think the wisest course is to have faith that God does indeed know all things until by his own mouth he tells us otherwise.

[CV75]

Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?  Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?

 

If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality.  I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is.  Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well?  What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom.  I am really curious.

I can’t speak for all, but for me and my house, yes. Faith in the Lord is fundamentally the driver of all I do, and the promise of eternal increase is the culmination of all His promises. The only way to progress is to get on and remain on the path He has set out for us, which begins minimally with faith, repentance and baptism.

Homosexuality--what is that, really [nothing to undermine faith in Christ over], and is it on everyone’s mind [far from it]? Neither do I think heterosexuality (what is that, really?) is on everyone’s mind, nor the basis for these promises.

[CV75]

Thanks for you post.  It is very thoughtful.  You bring up some interesting things.  I loved raising kids.  Now they are grown and being a part of their life is certainly a blessing.  But for the most part, it is a very minor part of what I am actively doing now in my life.  And I find my life still very rich and fulfilling.  So it makes me wonder what fulfillment I would find in the next life.  I know the most consistent thing that I have found fulfillment in is in creating works of art and building things,  I guess I don't look at my children as something I created.  Well maybe initially, but so much of who they are is because of the choices and hard work they have put into their lives.  So for me, creating billions of children seems less rewarding then say creating worlds or maybe even more the beauty found on those worlds.  Maybe not all of us are even destined to be the ones creating billions of children.

Some immortals would definitely rather serve “things” than “people.” Or just act upon things rather than act with others. There is a great deal of beauty in relationships, in what these relationships create, in the souls that create and interrelate, and in stages ranging from intelligences to exalted beings. Heavenly Father has definitely chosen to serve us, has done so all along, and will continue to do so. He also creates worlds.

[Coreyb]

I used to firmly believe as you do. Now I'm keeping an open mind because, among many other similar quotes found throughout the scriptures, the Book of Mormon speaks of God saying, "there is nothing, save he knows it." Also, in the Lectures on Faith we are taught that if a man doesn't firmly believe God knows all things that he can't exercise faith in Him unto salvation. Now that's a biggie. How does one get around this? I think the wisest course is to have faith that God does indeed know all things until by his own mouth he tells us otherwise.

I think the argument for a God who does not progress in knowledge is an argument based primarily on fear of change and of the unknown, as well as a need for God to ever be somehow seperated from man, giving man a sense of security and comfort in ignorance. I don't mean to be offensive, this is just how I feel about it, but let me explain.

Bruce R. McConkie argues in his seven deadly heresies...

Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow—why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.

Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?...

..If God is just dabbling with a few truths he has already chanced to learn or experimenting with a few facts he has already discovered, we have no idea as to the real end and purpose of creation.

This is essentially the same argument that Orson Pratt and James Talmage make. These arguments are based on the Theology of the Lectures on Faith, which McConkie attributes to Joseph Smith but I believe was produced by Sidney Rigdon, as well as the classic creeds of Monotheism about an all knowing, all powerful, unknown God.

This isn't really the problem I have with it however, as I accept the Lectures on Faith as scripture in my own personal "canon". My problem is that this doctrine seems to ignore the paradigm shattering implications of this verse from D&C 93:

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

If God is placing "truths" into spheres, wherein those truths will then act for themselves, just as intelligences are places in/on spheres to then act for themseleves, this implies that there are spheres of truth, intelligence and existence other than the one(s) in which we reside. Could there be different "truths" in other spheres, just as there are other intelligences? Could some spheres be greater than others, as the heavens are apparently higher than the earth? Could spheres be contained within greater spheres, like matryoshka dolls? If the truths within the spheres are "independent" where they are placed, couldn't God have mastered all truth and power in the sphere(s) pertaining to his children, and thus be all knowing and all powerful to them? Does this mean there are no higher vistas above? I don't think so.

Take a scientific example. In our world the most dominate force or "truth" we have to deal with is gravity. It effects all of us, all day every day. If we go down to a subatomic "sphere", it appears that gravity is less important than other forces. Does this mean that gravitation is not "true", or just that the rules are different in a different situation.

[JLHPROF]

 How does one get around this?

 

I use D&C 130:10 primarily, with a touch of Abraham 3:19.

Then add in some Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.

And then finish up with a rousing verse of "If You Could Hie To Kolob".

 

And if I'm feeling really out there I will watch the Star Trek Voyager episode "Death Wish" (mins 31-37 are the pertinent scene) which shows better than any sermon why the alternative could simply never work.

Edited February 21, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Bobbieaware]

I think the argument for a God who does not progress in knowledge is an argument based primarily on fear of change and of the unknown, as well as a need for God to ever be somehow seperated from man, giving man a sense of security and comfort in ignorance. I don't mean to be offensive, this is just how I feel about it, but let me explain.

Bruce R. McConkie argues in his seven deadly heresies...

Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow—why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.

Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?...

..If God is just dabbling with a few truths he has already chanced to learn or experimenting with a few facts he has already discovered, we have no idea as to the real end and purpose of creation.

This is essentially the same argument that Orson Pratt and James Talmage make. These arguments are based on the Theology of the Lectures on Faith, which McConkie attributes to Joseph Smith but I believe was produced by Sidney Rigdon, as well as the classic creeds of Monotheism about an all knowing, all powerful, unknown God.

This isn't really the problem I have with it however, as I accept the Lectures on Faith as scripture in my own personal "canon". My problem is that this doctrine seems to ignore the paradigm shattering implications of this verse from D&C 93:

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

If God is placing "truths" into spheres, wherein those truths will then act for themselves, just as intelligences are places in/on spheres to then act for themseleves, this implies that there are spheres of truth, intelligence and existence other than the one(s) in which we reside. Could there be different "truths" in other spheres, just as there are other intelligences? Could some spheres be greater than others, as the heavens are apparently higher than the earth? Could spheres be contained within greater spheres, like matryoshka dolls? If the truths within the spheres are "independent" where they are placed, couldn't God have mastered all truth and power in the sphere(s) pertaining to his children, and thus be all knowing and all powerful to them? Does this mean there are no higher vistas above? I don't think so.

Take a scientific example. In our world the most dominate force or "truth" we have to deal with is gravity. It effects all of us, all day every day. If we go down to a subatomic "sphere", it appears that gravity is less important than other forces. Does this mean that gravitation is not "true", or just that the rules are different in a different situation.

As I said, I'm keeping and open mind. And you must admit that "implications" of speculative theology are hardly on the same par of authority as are the unequivocal declarative statements of God himself in the scriptures. God has already spoken for himself on this matter and to me it seems unwise and presumptuous to go beyond what he has revealed in the standard works concerning his attributes.

Personally, for practical considerations, I think it's wise to keep a speculative belief in a God who doesn't know all things in the "closet," as they say. And in light of President Uchtdorf's recent address about how little we actually know about the reality of endless dimensions of light, truth and divine knowledge, as paradoxical and counter intuitive as it might seem, I think it might very well be possible to have a God who simultaneously knows all things but still grows in glory in ways that we haven't even considered because they exist far beyond the scope and capacity of our present understanding. Considering how little we now know about heavenly things, as we dwell in this fallen state, I think it's wise to take God at his own word, and for now just humbly accept him at his word.

"61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment."

How about this: if the united but separate personages of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost tip us off in any way, it could be that the supreme God is a composite body (divine council) of all the Gods who were, are and ever will be, and that the communal knowledge they possess and freely share does in fact constitute a knowledge of all things,

Edited February 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Coreyb]

Not sure how you can chide me for speculating and thinking about "implications" of scriptures when this is what everyone, including yourself, does when reading scriptures and trying to make sense of them. When you say "authoritative" or "unequivocal statements" you are making an assumption based on your own speculative interpretation of the words written and attaching "authority" to them. I don't buy into the "we just can't comprehend these things so don't even try" argument.

[cipriano]

This is all fascinating, but I fear it has become too esoteric based on the original post.

 

The thread is about procreation and whether it is a required experience to reach your eternal potential. I have been the only one to supply a yes or no answer. I don't feel that having children is a required ordinance, so to speak.

[JLHPROF]

This is all fascinating, but I fear it has become too esoteric based on the original post.

 

The thread is about procreation and whether it is a required experience to reach your eternal potential. I have been the only one to supply a yes or no answer. I don't feel that having children is a required ordinance, so to speak.

 

The original question was:

 

 Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?  Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?

 

My answer:

Yes, I am thrilled, no it's not what's driving me - the totality of eternal progression is.  Yes I believe offspring is the ONLY way to progress.

 

Satisfied?

But having offspring is NOT the end/limit.  Having our own creation is only the next stage, not the end of progression.

Edited February 22, 2015 by JLHPROF

[cipriano]

 

The original question was:

 

 Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?  Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?

 

My answer:

Yes, I am thrilled, no it's not what's driving me.  Yes I believe offspring is the ONLY way to progress.

 

Satisfied?

But having offspring is NOT the end/limit.  Having our own creation is only the next stage, not the end of progression.

 

Yes, I'm satisfied

 

Again, I realize I'm in the minority, but I believe the "Godhood equals procreation" mindset is a part of Cultural Mormonism, not Doctrinal Mormonism. I think if procreation was as big a deal as we make it, then it would have been outlined in D&C 132 along with eternal marriage. Or it would have been given ordinance status, that one must go through to move onwards. Again, if i'm totally off base, please let me know.

[JLHPROF]

Yes, I'm satisfied

 

Again, I realize I'm in the minority, but I believe the "Godhood equals procreation" mindset is a part of Cultural Mormonism, not Doctrinal Mormonism. I think if procreation was as big a deal as we make it, then it would have been outlined in D&C 132 along with eternal marriage. Or it would have been given ordinance status, that one must go through to move onwards. Again, if i'm totally off base, please let me know.

 

You ARE totally off base.

 

1. D&C 132:30-31

 

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

 

2. Commanded as part of the marriage ceremony.  We are commanded to fulfill all the rites and ordinances of marriage and to multiply and replenish the earth.  I don't see how we can claim to have fulfilled the law of marriage necessary for exaltation if we disobey the commandments that are attached to it.

We are also blessed with the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which is eternal posterity.

Having children is absolutely an ordinance - a key part of the marriage covenant.  Those that are unable will receive the blessing in the next life, just as those that are unable to marry in this life can receive it there.  But spouse AND children is the whole of exaltation - without them, no exaltation, no fulfilling of the marriage covenant, no furthering of God's work.

Edited February 22, 2015 by JLHPROF

[cipriano]

Hmm, interesting food for thought. I'll reread 132 tonight with this topic in mind.

 

So, here is a hypothetical situation. If an engaged couple goes to their bishop for approval of their Temple Marriage, and they say they can't see themselves having children (this would of course be a ward outside the I-15 corridor:)) how is their Bishop to counsel them. Would they be given permission to marry in the Temple? Would they be told that having an eternal companion is not enough, that they must have children, if not in this life, then the next.

 

I don't know, something about that doesn't sound right. But I'll reread D&C tonight and give it some thought.

[JLHPROF]

So, here is a hypothetical situation. If an engaged couple goes to their bishop for approval of their Temple Marriage, and they say they can't see themselves having children (this would of course be a ward outside the I-15 corridor:)) how is their Bishop to counsel them.

 

I am sure the Bishop would tell them that is a private decision between them and the Lord, but I would hope he would also point out that the commandment to have children is part of the marriage ceremony and the blessings of the sealing.

 

Would they be given permission to marry in the Temple?

 

I'm sure they would be (if worthy).  Everyone progresses at a different rate.

 

Would they be told that having an eternal companion is not enough, that they must have children, if not in this life, then the next.

 

By the Bishop, probably not.  If they pay attention to the marriage ceremony and believe it valid they will unavoidably be told this.

 

 

[Bobbieaware]

Not sure how you can chide me for speculating and thinking about "implications" of scriptures when this is what everyone, including yourself, does when reading scriptures and trying to make sense of them. When you say "authoritative" or "unequivocal statements" you are making an assumption based on your own speculative interpretation of the words written and attaching "authority" to them. I don't buy into the "we just can't comprehend these things so don't even try" argument.

If you perceived that I was "chiding," I wasn't. I was simply stating my opinion in a forthright manner. But I will say that after reading President Uchtdorf's recent address (the one that focused on how very, very little we fallen mortals really do know) I, for one, will take his cue and (hopefully) humbly admit that there are very likely a great many deep things of God that go far beyond my present ability to grasp. Submitting to such a state of humility in the presence of an almighty and omniscient God seems a wise thing to do, because just as the scriptures repeatedly us teach God knows all things, they also teach us that God's knowledge, when compared to human understanding, is like comparing the supernal glory of heaven to our present fallen and benighted world.

I guess I'm more comfortable complying with God's admonishing voice in the scriptures than I am with any intellectual flights of fancy that might emanate from fallen men who lack presiding priesthood authority (myself included). Now this doesn't mean I'm not keeping an open mind and that I'm not also open to the fact that when more is revealed I might be delightfully surprised; but until that day, I'll be content to adhere to the "lesser portion" of the iron rod of God's word we are now in possession of until God deigns to reveal more. And while, just like you, I do speculate, I make it a point to relegate my speculations to the "speculation file," not to the "revelation file" (I do place my personal revelations in the revelation file, but I will rarely share them, but if I do, I 'll never push them on any man). But if it turns out my speculations were accurate, I'll be thrilled; if not, I'll simply say "oh well."

" 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33

Edited February 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[JLHPROF]

I guess I'm more comfortable complying with God's admonishing voice in the scriptures than I am with any intellectual flights of fancy that might emanate from fallen men who lack presiding priesthood authority (myself included).

 

That's not a nice thing to say about Brigham and Joseph...

I already showed you the scriptural backing.

Edited February 22, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Bobbieaware]

That's not a nice thing to say about Brigham and Joseph...

I already showed you the scriptural backing.

Again, you seem to just disregard the scriptures that say otherwise. And a higher order of kingdoms doesn't necessarily mean that the truths that exalt a higher order of kingdoms are any different than the truths that exalt a lower of order of kingdoms. Perhaps in the higher order of celestial kingdoms they think faster, travel faster, build faster, create faster and are greater in population, interstellar reach, and sheer power of might, while the truths that exalt both celestial orders remain the same.

A question: Do you think it's possible that since according to your belief God doesn't know all things that he may one day learn that the forces of spiritual darkness are actually the ones in ultimate control, and that these entrenched evil intelligences have thus far allowed things to unfold as they have thus far as part of a sick and sadistic joke that will ultimately see our God dethroned and all his creation damned?

Edited February 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Coreyb]

Again, you seem to just disregard the scriptures that say otherwise. And a higher order of kingdoms doesn't necessarily mean that the truths that exalt a higher order of kingdoms are any different than the truths that exalt a lower of order of kingdoms. Perhaps in the higher order of celestial kingdoms they think faster, travel faster, build faster, create faster and are greater in population, interstellar reach, and sheer power of might, while the truths that exalt both celestial orders remain the same.

A question: Do you think it's possible that since according to your belief God doesn't know all things, that he may one day learn that the forces of spiritual darkness are actually the ones in ultimate control, and that these entrenched evil intelligences have thus far allowed things to unfold as they have as part of a sick and sadistic joke that will ultimately see our God dethroned and all his creation damned?

I think you are helping to illustrate my earlier point

[JLHPROF]

Again, you seem to just disregard the scriptures that say otherwise. And a higher order of kingdoms doesn't necessarily mean that the truths that exalt a higher order of kingdoms are any different than the truths that exalt a lower of order of kingdoms.

 

Actually according to both scripture and prophetic teaching that's exactly what it means.  Joseph taught a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge/intelligence.  Abraham 3 shows that to become God he had to be more intelligent than all the beings beneath him.  The scriptures tell us that the Glory of God is intelligence/truth/light, therefore it is impossible for God to increase in glory without increasing in intelligence.  That's just 2 scriptural and 1 prophetic teaching.  There are probably dozens more.

 

Perhaps in the higher order of celestial kingdoms they think faster, travel faster, build faster, create faster and are greater in population, interstellar reach, and sheer power of might, while the truths that exalt both celestial orders remain the same.

 

Again, not in keeping with scripture.  The scriptures and the prophets are VERY clear about the difference between kingdoms.  It's an issue of light accepted.  IF there are kingdoms higher than Celestial as D&C 130 teaches, and those who are exalted in the Celestial become Gods as D&C 132 teaches, then there has to be progression beyond what we call the office of "God".  Additonally, if of any two beings one is always more intelligent (Abraham 3) and we believe as Joseph Smith taught God had a Father, then it stands to reason God's father has more knowledge/intelligence.

Any other conclusion defies logic.

 

A question: Do you think it's possible that since according to your belief God doesn't know all things that he may one day learn that the forces of spiritual darkness are actually the ones in ultimate control, and that these entrenched evil intelligences have thus far allowed things to unfold as they have as part of a sick and sadistic joke that will ultimately see our God dethroned and all his creation damned?

 

You are considering an increase in knowledge to be a change in knowledge.  That is not necessarily true.  As I learn more about the Savior's atonement it doesn't mean I'm going to learn there is no atonement.  The idea that gaining more truth requires proving old truth wrong may not apply there.  If God dwells in a condition with pure light, no lies, no falsehood, no deception, there would be no false truths that he believed.  That doesn't prevent him from learning further light.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Bobbieaware]

I think you are helping to illustrate my earlier point

I believe that the truths revealed by Lehi in 2 Nephi 2 are the foundational truths that apply to all orders of kingdoms because existence, and all the various orders of kingdoms within existence, can only exist upon the fundamental foundational truth of opposition in all things. Lehi says that without the dynamic tension that exists between polar opposites nothing could exist. So the foundational truths of all kingdoms have forever and will forever remain the same. There is no order of kingdom where the devils win in the end because all things would vanish into non-existence if they did.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[california boy]

The prophets of the Book of Mormon assert that eternal life is a state of happiness that has no end. I believe them. After all, those who inherit eternal life are promised they will become joint heirs with Christ to possess ALL the Father possesses. This means they will inherit the eternal fullness of all the Father's perfect divine attributes including all of his intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, power, goodness, kindness, priesthood authority, kingship, mercy, compassion, sense of justice, faith, hope and infinite and eternal love.

Now think about it: what good would it do to possess all the fullness of God's perfect attributes of knowledge, power and glory only to end up sitting around for all eternity doing nothing but uselessly basking in the light of one's own perfection? What a waste! It makes no sense! What good would it do to possess all of these divine powers and attributes (the only logical and practical use of which is to use them to help other lesser intelligences to progress and improve) but never have an opportunity to use them in the manner in which they were meant to be used?

Even on this fallen world, family life is the most meaningful and fulfilling way to apply the divine attributes that we now only possess in rudimentary form. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that a form of family life in heaven would be the most meaningful and fulfilling way to apply the divine attributes when we possess them in eternal perfection. Any other way of doing it and heaven becomes little more than a never-ending Disneyland -- fun at first but eventually really, really boring. Think about it...

So do you think that all this knowledge and power will come upon entry into the Celestial Kingdom or do you think we will continue to learn line upon line and spend eternity catching up with God?

[california boy]

I am a firm believer in eternal progression - knowledge, experience, power, glory, priesthood, and yes, family & kingdoms.

 

If the only reward to eternal increase was children I don't think I'd be as interested, but fortunately that is just one aspect.  There are kingdoms higher than Celestial (where God dwells) and I anticipate forever moving upwards and forever raising my posterity to follow, just as God does.

 

The idea of being stagnant is horrifying.

Do you think that only people in the Celestial Kingdom will be continuing to progress or will anyone who has the desire to progress be allowed to do so.  If that is the case, then the big difference would indeed just be about eternal increase.  

[Bobbieaware]

Again, you seem to just disregard the scriptures that say otherwise. And a higher order of kingdoms doesn't necessarily mean that the truths that exalt a higher order of kingdoms are any different than the truths that exalt a lower of order of kingdoms.

 

Actually according to both scripture and prophetic teaching that's exactly what it means.  Joseph taught a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge/intelligence.  Abraham 3 shows that to become God he had to be more intelligent than all the beings beneath him.  The scriptures tell us that the Glory of God is intelligence/truth/light, therefore it is impossible for God to increase in glory without increasing in intelligence.  That's just 2 scriptural and 1 prophetic teaching.  There are probably dozens more.

 

Perhaps in the higher order of celestial kingdoms they think faster, travel faster, build faster, create faster and are greater in population, interstellar reach, and sheer power of might, while the truths that exalt both celestial orders remain the same.

 

Again, not in keeping with scripture.  The scriptures and the prophets are VERY clear about the difference between kingdoms.  It's an issue of light accepted.  IF there are kingdoms higher than Celestial as D&C 130 teaches, and those who are exalted in the Celestial become Gods as D&C 132 teaches, then there has to be progression beyond what we call the office of "God".  Additonally, if of any two beings one is always more intelligent (Abraham 3) and we believe as Joseph Smith taught God had a Father, then it stands to reason God's father has more knowledge/intelligence.

Any other conclusion defies logic.

 

A question: Do you think it's possible that since according to your belief God doesn't know all things that he may one day learn that the forces of spiritual darkness are actually the ones in ultimate control, and that these entrenched evil intelligences have thus far allowed things to unfold as they have as part of a sick and sadistic joke that will ultimately see our God dethroned and all his creation damned?

 

You are considering an increase in knowledge to be a change in knowledge.  That is not necessarily true.  As I learn more about the Savior's atonement it doesn't mean I'm going to learn there is no atonement.  The idea that gaining more truth requires proving old truth wrong may not apply there.  If God dwells in a condition with pure light, no lies, no falsehood, no deception, there would be no false truths that he believed.  That doesn't prevent him from learning further light.

Do you believe that in eternity there exists a single supreme God who is greater than all the other Gods because he is the one who more intelligent than all the other Gods? Or do you believe their is no God who is more intelligent than all the other Gods?

[california boy]

Some immortals would definitely rather serve “things” than “people.” Or just act upon things rather than act with others. There is a great deal of beauty in relationships, in what these relationships create, in the souls that create and interrelate, and in stages ranging from intelligences to exalted beings. Heavenly Father has definitely chosen to serve us, has done so all along, and will continue to do so. He also creates worlds.

So would it matter if a person is gay or straight in order to fulfil such an eternity?

[JLHPROF]

Do you think that only people in the Celestial Kingdom will be continuing to progress or will anyone who has the desire to progress be allowed to do so.  If that is the case, then the big difference would indeed just be about eternal increase.  

 

Well, as you might guess from my earlier posts, not only do I reject McConkies illogical claim that God is not progressing, I also reject his claim that there is an end to progression for those in kingdoms lower than the Celestial.

 

Now, HOW a person in the Terrestrial kingdom might progress I don't know.  Maybe the kingdom as a whole progresses until it reaches Celestialization.  Maybe individuals within the Terrestrial progress in truth and light until they move beyond the Terrestrial.  The scriptures give no indication HOW it might be achieved.

But we know that beings from the Celestial minister to the Terrestrial, and that would serve no purpose if not to bring those of a lower order up to their level.

[JLHPROF]

Do you believe that in eternity there exists a single supreme God who is greater than all the other Gods because he is the one who more intelligent than all the other Gods? Or do you believe their is no God who is more intelligent than all the other Gods?

 

EDIT - Yes and no.  I believe there is a head of the Gods who is more intelligent that the rest of the Gods.  Joseph taught that.

However I believe there is a being above him so no, I don't believe there is a supreme final God anymore than I believe there was a first original God.  That's a very mortal notion, not an eternal perspective.  (Remember the mirrors in the temple).

 

I believe that eternal progression means exactly that.  I believe that there is NO end to knowledge.  I believe that there is a head God as Joseph clearly taught who presides over the other Gods, but then I believe he also has a head.  And I find this fits with the teachings of Joseph Smith, the temple, and the scriptures perfectly.

Edited February 22, 2015 by JLHPROF