california boy Posted February 22, 2015 Author Posted February 22, 2015 Well, as you might guess from my earlier posts, not only do I reject McConkies illogical claim that God is not progressing, I also reject his claim that there is an end to progression for those in kingdoms lower than the Celestial. Now, HOW a person in the Terrestrial kingdom might progress I don't know. Maybe the kingdom as a whole progresses until it reaches Celestialization. Maybe individuals within the Terrestrial progress in truth and light until they move beyond the Terrestrial. The scriptures give no indication HOW it might be achieved.But we know that beings from the Celestial minister to the Terrestrial, and that would serve no purpose if not to bring those of a lower order up to their level. Then if all of the people in all of the kingdom can progress, doesn't that mean that the big difference between the Celestial Kingdom and the other kingdoms are the ability to have offspring? Yeah the neighbors might be better also. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Then if all of the people in all of the kingdom can progress, doesn't that mean that the big difference between the Celestial Kingdom and the other kingdoms are the ability to have offspring? Yeah the neighbors might be better also. It's not just the ability to have offspring. It's what they can do with those offspring. Create worlds, teach and guide them, lead them back to Godhood too.Without the offspring it would be a very self centered existence, which as we know is a very unGodly way to live.
california boy Posted February 22, 2015 Author Posted February 22, 2015 It's not just the ability to have offspring. It's what they can do with those offspring. Create worlds, teach and guide them, lead them back to Godhood too.Without the offspring it would be a very self centered existence, which as we know is a very unGodly way to live.So what is eternity like in the Terrestrial Kingdom? Any creating going on? Or are they just sitting around for eternity. And how does that kingdom differ from the Telestial Kingdom?
Bobbieaware Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) EDIT - Yes and no. I believe there is a head of the Gods who is more intelligent that the rest of the Gods. Joseph taught that.However I believe there is a being above him so no, I don't believe there is a supreme final God.I believe that eternal progression means exactly that. I believe that there is NO end to knowledge. I believe that there is a head God as Joseph clearly taught who presides over the other Gods, but then I believe he also has a head. And I find this fits with the teachings of Joseph Smith, the temple, and the scriptures perfectly.So you end up in state of eternal insecurity because no one really knows who's actually in charge, and not knowing if the time will come when the whole seeming everlasting order of things will ultimately be overthrown by a "God" who is unknown and forever unknowable. What you are suggesting is that even the supreme God above all other Gods (because according to your scenario it doesn't matter where in the hierarchy you begin) doesn't know who or what is actually in charge, Yet it was Jesus Christ himself who declared that the very essence of eternal life is to KNOW who and what God is. The whole thing begins to take on hues of the Jodie Foster movie "Contact," where the seemingly godlike aliens, in spite of their vastly superior knowledge, are just as clueless about the true order of things as the inferior earthlings to whom they are attempting to minister. Hail Carl Sagan! Edited February 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Coreyb Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 So you end up in state of eternal insecurity because no one really knows who's actually in charge, and not knowing if the time will come when the whole seeming everlasting order of things will ultimately be overthrown by a "God" who is unknown and forever unknowable. What you are saying is that even the supreme God (because according to your scenario it doesn't matter where in the pecking order you begin) doesn't know who or what is in charge, Yet it was Jesus Christ himself who said the very essence of eternal life is to KNOW who and what God is. It begins to take on hues of the Jodie Foster movie "Contact," where the seemingly godlike aliens are just as clueless about the true order of things as the inferior earthlings. Hail Carl Sagan!Can you produce an argument against this that is not based in fear of insecurity and of the unknown? 1
Bobbieaware Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Can you produce an argument against this that is not based in fear of insecurity and of the unknown? What else can there be but insecurity when even the supreme God above of all other Gods is just as clueless about the ultimate order of things as is any inferior being? In this unique version of "ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth," it doesn't matter how far along one has progressed because there are still an infinite number of Gods ahead of him who are just as stumped and clueless about the ultimate order of things as he is. That existence and the power of life might end up being a sadistic practical joke of evil ones will always remain a possibility. Why? because no one really knows? Though a particular God might perfectly understand the laws by which a given realm is governed, there's always going to be the potential for that which is currently thought to be the true order of things to be turned upside down in the next highest realm. There's even the possibility that when an exalted being looks into his own personal Urim and Thummim to learn about what's going on in the next highest order of kingdoms he will discover, much to his shock and horror, that in the strange and topsy-turfy multi-verse of unending eternal mysteries hell is the next stop. Edited February 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware
carbon dioxide Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious. Call me immature but what partially drives me is to create very large stars and then blow them up in a supernova. 1
CV75 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 So would it matter if a person is gay or straight in order to fulfil such an eternity?I'm not sure what you are asking. Virtually everyone ever living on earth will be resurrected and may do all they can given their kingdom of glory. It doesn't matter how someone might circumscribe their humanity by classifying them according to one attribute of his own definition.
smac97 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) In another thread, Smac made a very interesting comment that I would like to discuss. This is what he said The concept of Eternal Progression is inextricably linked to eternal increase. We are created as the spirit "children" of God. We are literally His children. "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Temple work is entirely devoted to sealing spouses, a man and a woman, to each other and to their children. Eternal marriages, eternal families, eternal increase. What we call "sexual orientation" appears to be part and parcel of the eternal scheme of things. Thanks, -Smac I found this statement to be quite interesting. Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Well, this is disappointing. You aren't the first person to try a gross, distorted and profane caricature of this very sacred subject, and I'm sure you won't be the last. Ed Decker was way ahead of you. He too thought it appropriate to summarize LDS eschatology in this way. Ed Decker: "Here the god of Mormonism and his wives, through endless Celestial sex, produced billions of spirit children." California Boy: "Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?" Not much of a difference, is there? So I'll respond with an apt response to when Ed Decker put his oar in: "To demean God’s Biblical command to 'be fruitful and multiply' by referring to 'endless Celestial sex' is an example of the tasteless sensationalism decried by the National Council of Christians and Jews in their report which totally discredited this film." - A MORMON CHALLENGES “THE GOD MAKERS” MOVIE (formerly called “Errors, Distortions And Untruths In The Movie “The God makers”) –by Robert Starling Revised January 10, 1995 That's about the most appropriate response to "Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?" Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring? You have yet to come close to accurately characterizing what I believe about the hereafter. You have also not yet bothered to actually ask me what I believe about the hereafter, and have instead resorted to re-worked Deckerisms. If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious. Well, we could start with Romans 8:17, Romans 2:7, 1 Corinthians 11:11, D&C 130:2, D&C 132:18-20, D&C 131:2, and (perhaps most importantly) John 15:10, 1 Corinthians 13:2 and 1 Corinthians 2:9. But then starting a good faith discussion of a serious and sacred topic such as this is not really feasible when you began it by echoing the likes of Ed Decker. So no thanks. Thanks, -Smac Edited February 22, 2015 by smac97
california boy Posted February 22, 2015 Author Posted February 22, 2015 Well, this is disappointing. You aren't the first person to try a gross, distorted and profane caricature of this very sacred subject, and I'm sure you won't be the last. Ed Decker was way ahead of you. He too thought it appropriate to summarize LDS eschatology in this way. Ed Decker: "Here the god of Mormonism and his wives, through endless Celestial sex, produced billions of spirit children."California Boy: "Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?"Not much of a difference, is there?So I'll respond with an apt response to when Ed Decker put his oar in: "To demean God’s Biblical command to 'be fruitful and multiply' by referring to 'endless Celestial sex' is an example of the tasteless sensationalism decried by the National Council of Christians and Jews in their report which totally discredited this film." -A MORMON CHALLENGES “THE GOD MAKERS” MOVIE(formerly called “Errors, Distortions And Untruths In The Movie “The God makers”)–by Robert Starling Revised January 10, 1995That's about the most appropriate response to "Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?" You have yet to come close to accurately characterizing what I believe about the hereafter. You have also not yet bothered to actually ask me what I believe about the hereafter, and have instead resorted to re-worked Deckerisms. Well, we could start with Romans 8:17, Romans 2:7, 1 Corinthians 11:11, D&C 130:2, D&C 132:18-20, D&C 131:2, and (perhaps most importantly) John 15:10, 1 Corinthians 13:2 and 1 Corinthians 2:9. But then starting a good faith discussion of a serious and sacred topic such as this is not really feasible when you began it by echoing the likes of Ed Decker. So no thanks.Thanks,-Smac Except I am seeking the answer to a question, not summarizing Mormon theology. I want to know what members and whoever wants to comment feel about this subject. I seek knowledge, not declair what I think.
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Can you produce an argument against this that is not based in fear of insecurity and of the unknown? This exactly. The fear that if there is knowledge God doesn't possess it could result in his eventually finding out truth is false, or a sadistic practical joke is an irrational fear.If this life is elementary school, and the next life is high school, then higher kingdoms might be college, and that doesn't preclude there being a grad school too. And onward and onward.Doesn't mean college is going to teach that everything you learned in high school was wrong.So is the expectation that there is an "ultimate" order of things. There is an ultimate for every sphere, but there are always higher spheres. I can neither accept nor believe that there is EVER an end to knowledge, no matter whether we are man or God. I find it unscriptural and illogical.To put immortality without growth on a being would be the cruelest, most sadistic joke of all. Edited February 22, 2015 by JLHPROF
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 So what is eternity like in the Terrestrial Kingdom? Any creating going on? Or are they just sitting around for eternity. And how does that kingdom differ from the Telestial Kingdom? I don't believe we have any revelation on that subject.The best we can do is infer from THIS earth - we are currently a Telestial state so I would imagine the Telestial world would be similar.The Garden of Eden and the Millennial Earth are both sometimes considered a Terrestrial state so I would imagine the Terrestrial world would be similar. But we have no actual information.
CV75 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Except I am seeking the answer to a question, not summarizing Mormon theology. I want to know what members and whoever wants to comment feel about this subject. I seek knowledge, not declair what I think.What is the question again?
california boy Posted February 22, 2015 Author Posted February 22, 2015 What is the question again?Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious.
california boy Posted February 22, 2015 Author Posted February 22, 2015 I don't believe we have any revelation on that subject.The best we can do is infer from THIS earth - we are currently a Telestial state so I would imagine the Telestial world would be similar.The Garden of Eden and the Millennial Earth are both sometimes considered a Terrestrial state so I would imagine the Terrestrial world would be similar. But we have no actual information.I don't believe we have any revelation on that subject.The best we can do is infer from THIS earth - we are currently a Telestial state so I would imagine the Telestial world would be similar.The Garden of Eden and the Millennial Earth are both sometimes considered a Terrestrial state so I would imagine the Terrestrial world would be similar. But we have no actual information.Thanks for your thoughts. It is interesting to me that we have all of these scriptures on what we must do here on earth but so little about what we are working towards 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 So are you saying that the thing that is motivating you to obtain Celestial Glory is having billions of children? Is that what this is all about? For me that is just a side benefit. The motivating force for me is to become like God. 2
Jeanne Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious.Just wanted to say that this is just a great question. I have two children...I am a happy camper! But I am not mormon either.
CV75 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious.These are more than one question.; I thought you would try to boil it down. I'll try to answer them again, without peeking at my previous answer.Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? I do not know--as you indicated, some people are obviously more interested in other things, such as creating works of art.Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? The only effective thing that drives everyone (anyone) to be found worthy is faith in Christ.Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring? I do not know about "all"--as you indicated, some people are obviously more interested in other things, such as creating art.If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. This is not a question. Do you mean to ask, "If the answer is "yes"..."? Would you also like to ask, "If the answer is "no"...?I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. See: D&C 131 and 132 (especially where it explains that the glory of eternity (exaltation) "shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever."Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? Faith in Christ is of paramount importance to me. Everything else He offers and promises is an appendage to that.What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom [?] Faith in Christ.
pogi Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 If you are speaking about eternal progression of glory, then yes, the only way to progress eternally in glory is through increase of children. "Billions" of children is not even close to seeing the big picture. God is glorified through us. We are his work and glory. Without children, God would be no God and there would be no glory.
theplains Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 "For this is my work and glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." The 1997 version of Gospel Principles explains it with more clarification. All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Regards,Jim
JLHPROF Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 If you are speaking about eternal progression of glory, then yes, the only way to progress eternally in glory is through increase of children. "Billions" of children is not even close to seeing the big picture. God is glorified through us. We are his work and glory. Without children, God would be no God and there would be no glory. Funny - I thought the glory of God was intelligence, or truth and light
Bobbieaware Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Funny - I thought the glory of God was intelligence, or truth and light Here's another way to examine this subject: Do you believe it's possible that by reason of their greater intelligence the Gods who occupy the kingdoms of a glory that are higher than our God's kingdom have greater capacity to love and show mercy than he does? In other words, do you believe that thorough the process of eternal progression the capacity to love increases as a God's intelligence increases? Edited February 23, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
california boy Posted February 23, 2015 Author Posted February 23, 2015 For me that is just a side benefit. The motivating force for me is to become like God.So what is it about being like God that you like?
california boy Posted February 23, 2015 Author Posted February 23, 2015 These are more than one question.; I thought you would try to boil it down. I'll try to answer them again, without peeking at my previous answer.Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? I do not know--as you indicated, some people are obviously more interested in other things, such as creating works of art.Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? The only effective thing that drives everyone (anyone) to be found worthy is faith in Christ.Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring? I do not know about "all"--as you indicated, some people are obviously more interested in other things, such as creating art.If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. This is not a question. Do you mean to ask, "If the answer is "yes"..."? Would you also like to ask, "If the answer is "no"...?I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. See: D&C 131 and 132 (especially where it explains that the glory of eternity (exaltation) "shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever."Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? Faith in Christ is of paramount importance to me. Everything else He offers and promises is an appendage to that.What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom [?] Faith in Christ. Thanks for your answers. I found your answers to be pretty insightful. I am certainly getting something out of these answers. I hope others are as well. And yes, I would like to know whether your answer is yes or no to the bolded question. Does your answer mean that having billions of offspring in the next life is not as important asn having faith in Christ? Or rather than guess at what you mean, could you explain your thoughts a bit more?
JLHPROF Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Here's another way to examine this subject: Do you believe it's possible that by reason of their greater intelligence the Gods who occupy the kingdoms of a glory that are higher than our God's kingdom have greater capacity to love and show mercy than he does? THAT is a very good question. I'd like to think so, but I have no idea what MORE love that God has would even look like. That is far beyond my ability to imagine.As long as we are speculating about the higher orders of which the scriptures declare the existence, perhaps there are emotions higher than love too...
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