Storm Rider Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Hey, if reading the Bible allows people to believe in a Savior and learn to pray I'm all for it. Assuming that's the kind of thing you are referring to.But entrance to the Celestial Kingdom is still predicated upon authorized Baptism. Anything else doesn't lead to God, but to a lesser glory. JL, who does not receive authorized baptisms? If everyone will receive the ordinances of exaltation who is excluded from the opportunity to enter the Celestial Kingdom?
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 JL, who does not receive authorized baptisms? If everyone will receive the ordinances of exaltation who is excluded from the opportunity to enter the Celestial Kingdom? Nobody is excluded from the OPPORTUNITY.We were discussing whether all religions, esp. Christian religions, are equally valid as compared to Mormonism. A "Mormon" baptism is the only one done by priesthood authority. By the end of the Millennium everyone will have had the opportunity to accept or decline it, whether in this life or the life to come.But it is required for entrance to the Celestial Kingdom. 3
Teancum Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 All of the miracles I have witnessed. Its a personal testimony to me. It started when I was a kid. My mother kept a journal and so we can read back and read about all of the absolute miracles in our lives that came because of faith. So your evidence is personal and has no value to anyone else but you?
Bobbieaware Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) So your evidence is personal and has no value to anyone else but you?By such comments you don't chide the person you're responding to but to his God. According to the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the other two standard works of LDS scripture, God does not reveal truth in the sign-seeking manner you seem to demand. So why not show a little respect and stop demanding something of individual Latter-day Saints that they have no right nor power to give? Whether you like it or not, or want to believe it or not, the Scriptures of the Latter-day Saints declare God's truth can be known in no other way than by personal revelation. It's likely true you're aware of the fact that when the LDS missionaries teach investigators the gospel they are counseled to not attempt to convince those they teach in any way other than to encourage each investigator to study the gospel on his own, and then by mighty prayer seek confirmatory revelation from heaven. So why do you carry on in the way you do when you already know the LDS religion teaches that revelatory evidence is not given without first passing through the trial of faith? The fact that you're seeking evidence without any exercise of faith on your part puts you at total odds with the principles of the restored gospel. So I'm trying to understand why you keep on trying to draw blood from a stone? If you don't like nor respect the LDS God's prescribed revelatory pathway to the knowledge of truth, why do you continue on and on in this useless exercise when the LDS scriptures themselves testify faithless sign seekers will never be satisfied? Are the LDS church members on this board supposed to attempt to violate the tenets of their religion just to please you? Remember, the sign seeking enemies of Jesus still didn't believe in him even after he raised Lazarus from the dead. Without faith, no miraculous sign will ever be enough for the sign seeker. Edited March 24, 2015 by Bobbieaware 4
stemelbow Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 So your evidence is personal and has no value to anyone else but you? For me, yes.
ksfisher Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) So your evidence is personal and has no value to anyone else but you? Reminds me of this scripture: And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken.Jacob 7:5 And also this: To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.D&C 46:14 Edited March 24, 2015 by ksfisher 2
UtahTexan Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 So your evidence is personal and has no value to anyone else but you? Some is...some not. If Heavenly Father believes my experiences will be helpful to others, then it will be impressed upon me to share. Sometimes, experiences are like prescribed medications......they are only for the person to whom they are prescribed....and even if they MIGHT be helpful to someone else, it is wrong to share them.
pogi Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 So your evidence is personal and has no value to anyone else but you? I value his personal experience.
wtrdog Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 There is a lot of contradiction I'm witnessing here. Very strong language claiming to "know truth" cannot be reasonably based on subjective experience. Frankly, it's arguable that we cannot even trust our own subjective perceptions. Rigors like the scientific method are established precisely because we are so imperfect and have a constant need to discipline ourselves. What is the standard for determining whether a thought or "feeling" is actually divine communication from God? How often do we misinterpret each other, gestures, etc.? Those making such assured declarations would do themselves a great service if they were to take the time to visit some other churches. What they'll find is that people of every other faith tradition make the exact sort of statements using the same type of language. We LDS do not have a monopoly on faith-promoting subjective experiences.
pogi Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) What is the standard for determining whether a thought or "feeling" is actually divine communication from God? As Bukowski would say - once you attempt to define it in words, the meaning is lost. The best standard that I know of is in Alma 32. Appropriately, it is in metaphoric form, as words fall short. What they'll find is that people of every other faith tradition make the exact sort of statements using the same type of language. We LDS do not have a monopoly on faith-promoting subjective experiences. You are right, we don't have a monopoly. To further complicate the issue, each faith-promoting experience is subject to personal interpretation. Divine light and knowledge must pass through mortal filters of beliefs, perceptions, culture, etc. When each person lives in spiritual integrity and lives according to the promptings they receive (even if they are misinterpreted), the Lord will guide people of all faiths who heed his promptings to the same divine source. That is my belief. Edited March 24, 2015 by pogi
wtrdog Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 You are right, we don't have a monopoly. To further complicate the issue, each faith-promoting experience is subject to personal interpretation. Divine light and knowledge must pass through mortal filters of beliefs, perceptions, culture, etc. When each person lives in spiritual integrity and lives according to the promptings they receive (even if they are misinterpreted), the Lord will guide people of all faiths who heed his promptings to the same divine source. That is my belief. What does "divine light and knowledge" mean? Being Mormon I guess I know what it means, but I just wanted to take a moment to think out loud and ponder why it is that we use fluffy language like this? Is it to puff ourselves up? So, from what you're saying, it is your belief that other faiths exist because the only people on planet Earth with spiritual integrity are Mormon... nice. Do you at the very least appreciate how such a statement makes you look?
Kenngo1969 Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) There is a lot of contradiction I'm witnessing here. Very strong language claiming to "know truth" cannot be reasonably based on subjective experience. Why not? My subjective inability to describe, objectively, in universally-understandable terms, any particular experience doesn't change the fact that such experiences can, and often do, profoundly affect those who experience them. Frankly, it's arguable that we cannot even trust our own subjective perceptions. Mmm-kay. What else would you have us trust? If a scientist tells me that there is an infinite number of celestial bodies of one sort or another in the universe, am I to believe he knows that because he has counted them all (a prospect which is, by definition, impossible, since infinity is uncountable? Rigors like the scientific method are established precisely because we are so imperfect and have a constant need to discipline ourselves. Maybe, but even the scientific paradigm is not of equal use in the consideration of all questions. I'm reminded of the conversation between John Nash and his future wife in A Beautiful Mind. She asks, "How do you know that the universe is infinite?" He says, "I don't; I just believe." She replies, "It's the same with love, I guess." What is the standard for determining whether a thought or "feeling" is actually divine communication from God? Whether it bears good fruit in the life of the person who feels/experiences it. See Moroni 7:12-14. How often do we misinterpret each other, gestures, etc.? This seems to me to be a non sequitur. You're welcome to clarify. See also Moroni 7:15. Those making such assured declarations would do themselves a great service if they were to take the time to visit some other churches. Oh, my heavens, yes! You've hit on the solution! Our experience simply isn't broad enough! If only we had your unlimited, broad perspective. Alas ... What they'll find is that people of every other faith tradition make the exact sort of statements using the same type of language. We LDS do not have a monopoly on faith-promoting subjective experiences. Hallelujah! More power to 'em! https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/ Edited March 24, 2015 by Kenngo1969 1
pogi Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 What does "divine light and knowledge" mean? Being Mormon I guess I know what it means, but I just wanted to take a moment to think out loud and ponder why it is that we use fluffy language like this? Is it to puff ourselves up? Divine light and knowledge are just words to describe what happens when God speaks to you through spirit. Why do you ask if it is used to puff ourselves up? I said that ALL faiths and ALL people receive it. So, from what you're saying, it is your belief that other faiths exist because the only people on planet Earth with spiritual integrity are Mormon... nice. Do you at the very least appreciate how such a statement makes you look? No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am validating the spiritual experiences of other faiths and our faith equally. When we (all people, not just Mormons) practice spiritual integrity, we will all be led to the divine source. Because we all have different filters, spiritual integrity may look different in each faith. 2
wtrdog Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am validating the spiritual experiences of other faiths and our faith equally. When we (all people, not just Mormons) practice spiritual integrity, we will all be led to the divine source. Because we all have different filters, spiritual integrity may look different in each faith. You don't believe that the LDS church is the "one true church on the face of the Earth" then?
wtrdog Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 Why not? My subjective inability to describe, objectively, in universally-understandable terms, any particular experience doesn't change the fact that such experiences can, and often do, profoundly affect those who experience them. Mmm-kay. What else would you have us trust? If a scientist tells me that there is an infinite number of celestial bodies of one sort or another in the universe, am I to believe he knows that because he has counted them all (a prospect which is, by definition, impossible, since infinity is uncountable? Maybe, but even the scientific paradigm is not of equal use in the consideration of all questions. I'm reminded of the conversation between John Nash and his future wife in A Beautiful Mind. She asks, "How do you know that the universe is infinite?" He says, "I don't; I just believe." She replies, "It's the same with love, I guess." Whether it bears good fruit in the life of the person who feels/experiences it. See Moroni 7:12-14. This seems to me to be a non sequitur. You're welcome to clarify. See also Moroni 7:15. Oh, my heavens, yes! You've hit on the solution! Our experience simply isn't broad enough! If only we had your unlimited, broad perspective. Alas ... Hallelujah! More power to 'em! https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/ I'm afraid you're missing the point.
Kenngo1969 Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 You don't believe that the LDS church is the "one true church on the face of the Earth" then?"Inasmuch as men and women (of whatever religious persuasion, or even of no religious persuasion whatsoever) do good, they shall in nowise lose their reward." And the task of every devout individual (of whatever religious stripe) is to respond the best he can to whatever light he receives. "And he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light. And that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day." I believe God is pleased when people respond positively to whatever light they have. Conversely, either Christ bestowed authority on His Apostles when He was on the Earth, or He did not. If He did, I think it is important to have that authority. Either three of His Apostles (Peter, James, and John) restored that authority to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, or they did not; if they did, then I think it's important to have that authority. However, no one that I am aware of except you is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" by saying, essentially, that such authority is the sin qua non for doing good on the Earth. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) I'm afraid you're missing the point. Alas, we can't all be as brilliant as you apparently (think you) are! Whatever! P.S.: I answered your questions in good faith. If you're trying to convince me that, from your perspective, my only reason for doing so is so that you could watch me chase my tail, you're doing a heckuva good job! Congratulations! Edited March 24, 2015 by Kenngo1969
JLHPROF Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 When each person lives in spiritual integrity and lives according to the promptings they receive (even if they are misinterpreted), the Lord will guide people of all faiths who heed his promptings to the same divine source. That is my belief. I like this and agree with it.God guides people according to the light they are willing and able to accept. Line upon line, precept upon precept.But there is only one path to God, no matter what route is taken to find the path. 2
pogi Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 You don't believe that the LDS church is the "one true church on the face of the Earth" then? Define what you mean by true. All churches have some truth and fall short of the whole truth - even ours. We are unique in that we are the only church with authority to perform saving ordinances. It is the only church with a living prophet. I don't need to teach you about temple work for you to understand that any faith can lead to exaltation. 1
Avatar4321 Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) So your evidence is personal and has no value to anyone else but you?I disagree. His personal evidence is of value to his family any anyone else the spirit reveals he should share it with. Edited March 25, 2015 by Avatar4321 1
Avatar4321 Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 You don't believe that the LDS church is the "one true church on the face of the Earth" then?Considering the church has always taught that people can have spiritual experiences whether they belong to the church or not, it seems strange that you would think that believingbsomething the church teaches means you don't think its true..In fact the missionaries are actively striving to get nonmembers to have spiritual experiences. 1
Teancum Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 By such comments you don't chide the person you're responding to but to his God. According to the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the other two standard works of LDS scripture, God does not reveal truth in the sign-seeking manner you seem to demand. So why not show a little respect and stop demanding something of individual Latter-day Saints that they have no right nor power to give? Whether you like it or not, or want to believe it or not, the Scriptures of the Latter-day Saints declare God's truth can be known in no other way than by personal revelation. It's likely true you're aware of the fact that when the LDS missionaries teach investigators the gospel they are counseled to not attempt to convince those they teach in any way other than to encourage each investigator to study the gospel on his own, and then by mighty prayer seek confirmatory revelation from heaven. So why do you carry on in the way you do when you already know the LDS religion teaches that revelatory evidence is not given without first passing through the trial of faith? The fact that you're seeking evidence without any exercise of faith on your part puts you at total odds with the principles of the restored gospel. So I'm trying to understand why you keep on trying to draw blood from a stone? If you don't like nor respect the LDS God's prescribed revelatory pathway to the knowledge of truth, why do you continue on and on in this useless exercise when the LDS scriptures themselves testify faithless sign seekers will never be satisfied? Are the LDS church members on this board supposed to attempt to violate the tenets of their religion just to please you? Remember, the sign seeking enemies of Jesus still didn't believe in him even after he raised Lazarus from the dead. Without faith, no miraculous sign will ever be enough for the sign seeker.My questions are honest. My questions are sincere. Why do they seem to anger you so much? This is the second or third post where you have basically lumped me into the wicked and adulterous sing seeker generation. I am LDS. I still attend. My guess is i have been as active and committed as you are most of my life. I have had what LDS call a testimony. I know all the scriptures you chide me with qnd the approach the church teaches. I have used those methods and guess what? I still do? Currently at least they don't seem to be working for me. For now I feel I need something more than faith and I have some negative views on using this as a reliable means for finding truth though I still try. However I do feel due to many factors and issues rather betrayed by the insistence that this is the only means most humans will have to find truth about God. You tell me I must be humble. How do you know I am not? You say the natural and carnal man cannot here or or know the things of the spirit. How can you judge where I am at with this. I do not diss you or others for stating ypur faith or claiming personal revelation. But those things are good only for you. I really am a seeker. Do you know the personal pain this has caused me in this journey? Do you know how much I wish I could put the genie back in the bottle? I have tried and continue to try.So really I don't need a self righteous lecture. If I appear to be rude or chiding I friendly reminder is fine. It is not my intent. Rather perhaps it is the frustration on the at time dogmatic insistence and attitude about these issues and that somehow the LDS claim of confirmation of spiritual truth about the LDS gospel is much better than those of other faiths or other methods and that I am some how evil because I desire more solid evidence.I really wonder if I gain or add by posting here at all.
Teancum Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 I disagree. His personal evidence is of value to his family any anyone else the spirit reveals he should share it with.I asked as a question not an assertion?
wtrdog Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 I really wonder if I gain or add by posting here at all. Waste of life.
wtrdog Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 Alas, we can't all be as brilliant as you apparently (think you) are! Whatever! P.S.: I answered your questions in good faith. If you're trying to convince me that, from your perspective, my only reason for doing so is so that you could watch me chase my tail, you're doing a heckuva good job! Congratulations! I'm sure you are being genuine, but your responses come across as being quite weird. And anybody that employs so many emoticons and stylized text can't be altogether there. Your remarks are tedious to even read, just not in the mood for this rabbit hole. If you'll indulge me, I'd recommend that you try to not take things so personal as you seem to. And I truly do not mean any offense. You appear to be wearing an inferiority complex on your sleeve, and this does not serve to strengthen your arguments in any way. Just a distraction, really.
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