stemelbow Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 I don't understand. If some people are that frustrated and disillusioned with the Mormon church, why are they still Mormon? If someone is willing to believe the Mormon church is corrupt in any way and needs to be reformed, what's stopping them from believeing it was never true in the first place? Well, believing it was "true" in the first place would stop them from believing it was never true in the first place. When most LDS, at least it seems to me, say they believe the Church to be true, they do not mean every single practice and belief of the Church is true, nor do they mean that the Church has the whole truth--there are plenty more truths that we simply haven't figured out. We look forward to the day when our eyes are opened and we see much more clearly. Now we recognize we see through a mirky dark glass. 2
Alan Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Daniel Petersen has pretty much explained what happened in the RLDS Church.
Stone holm Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Well, believing it was "true" in the first place would stop them from believing it was never true in the first place. When most LDS, at least it seems to me, say they believe the Church to be true, they do not mean every single practice and belief of the Church is true, nor do they mean that the Church has the whole truth--there are plenty more truths that we simply haven't figured out. We look forward to the day when our eyes are opened and we see much more clearly. Now we recognize we see through a mirky dark glass.I think you nailed it.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 I don't understand. If some people are that frustrated and disillusioned with the Mormon church, why are they still Mormon? If someone is willing to believe the Mormon church is corrupt in any way and needs to be reformed, what's stopping them from believeing it was never true in the first place?Probably the realization that humans, all humans, are fallible. Even Peter, on his best days, couldn't quite get it right, denying the Lord thrice, and then later disagreeing with Paul. He got his comeuppance more than once, as do we all. We all need to repent, take care of the beam in our own eye (hint, hint), and reform ourselves. Our greatest burden is to bring our lives into conformity with the will of the Lord, a lifetime commitment. The worst mistake we might make (and Judas made it, and then regretted it) is to become impatient and jettison the very faith which is the key to our future, the key to salvation, and only the Holy Spirit will testify to it, and no other. You are a self-declared not-a-Mormon either because you discarded the Truth, the Way, and the Life, or because you have yet to listen to the witness of the Holy Spirit. 2
Calm Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Notamormon is being taught by the missionaries at this time, an investigator, not a critic. 1
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Yup, that is a sure path to a a disciple of Christ. What ever happened to straight is the way and narrow is the gate? Strange how scripture goes out the door as the ego strengthens. If the objective is to be a true disciple of Christ the sincere pursuit of truth matters. Truth draws us closer to God more quickly and effectively than believing in half truths. I do agree that it is a matter of personal choice; to free choose to follow even when the society rejects, ridicules, and demeans faith. We with will choose to stand on a sure foundation of truth or not.We have to leave most of the tares alone. When the Savior returns and I see gay temple marriage advocates burning alongside me I will have the consolation that my sins were much more fun.
NotaMormon Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 You are a self-declared not-a-Mormon either because you discarded the Truth, the Way, and the Life, or because you have yet to listen to the witness of the Holy Spirit.I haven't discarded the truth or the way. We just disagree on what the truth and the way is, which includes what role the Holy Spirit plays in the process. Just because someone isn't a Mormon doesn't mean they're rejecting truth or ignoring the Holy Spirit.
teddyaware Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) I haven't discarded the truth or the way. We just disagree on what the truth and the way is, which includes what role the Holy Spirit plays in the process. Just because someone isn't a Mormon doesn't mean they're rejecting truth or ignoring the Holy Spirit. Because you're an investigator, I would say this discussion board is not a good place for you to learn about the LDS Church. There are many participants here who retain nominal membership in the LDS Church but who, in varying degrees of bitterness and intensity, are dissenters and critics of the Church who will likely answer your questions from disillusioned and cynical points of view; and this will likely occur even if these dissenters and critics try to be sincere and on their very best behavior. And you need to know that by reading some of your responses on this thread, it's obvious to me the cynics and critics are already having an effect on your thinking. The LDS scriptures (including the Bible) teach us that only those who possess the Spirit of God and have strong testimonies of the Gospel and Restored Church can be effective and edifying in the teaching of the doctrines and principles of the Gospel. And whether anyone likes it or not, this principle is precisely what the scriptures teach. Therefore, it can be logically deduced that many of the answers to Gospel questions an investigator might receive from those who are shaky in their testimonies, and critical or lukewarm in their support of the living prophets, are likely going to lack the Spirit's authoritative and convincing power. And remember, until you've spent enough time on this board to get the hang of things, you're likely not going to know for sure when and if these cynical and skeptical dissenters and critics are among those who are answering your questions. The point I'm trying to make here distills down to one simple teaching of the Apostle Paul. He said: "... if the trumpet (i.e. a teacher of the Gospel) give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" Edited March 4, 2015 by teddyaware 2
alter idem Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 An interesting blog post from our friend Daniel Peterson with an associated link. The projected scenario he describes sounds vaguely familiar -- as though something similar had happened in real life fairly recently (wink, wink; nudge, nudge).I think Dan is onto something. I very much believe that we need to be wary of an 'Amalikiah' type rising up; in fact, we already have some who could lead a dissident movement within the church. However, I'm not so sure that a dissident would have to rise up through the ranks of the church to sieze power and assets. What I worry about is the government taking the church's assets and giving them to a 'reform' leadership if it ever gets to the point that our govt. starts penalizing all churches and organizations to force change and conformity. The govt. tried it once before, they were going to take all of the church property unless Polygamy was abandoned. But, there will be no way out for the church this time. If this were to happen, I'm afraid the church would have to let the temples go and I can see a scenario where a more 'progressive' reform movement might step forward to petition for ownership of confiscated properties, and this being granted because they would comply with govt. wishes. It is a frightening thought, and hopefully will never happen. 1
Teancum Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 An interesting blog post from our friend Daniel Peterson with an associated link. The projected scenario he describes sounds vaguely familiar -- as though something similar had happened in real life fairly recently (wink, wink; nudge, nudge).Sounds like over the top paranoia to me,
Teancum Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 Because you're an investigator, I would say this discussion board is not a good place for you to learn about the LDS Church. There are many participants here who retain nominal membership in the LDS Church but who, in varying degrees of bitterness and intensity, are dissenters and critics of the Church who will likely answer your questions from disillusioned and cynical points of view; and this will likely occur even if these dissenters and critics try to be sincere and on their very best behavior. And you need to know that by reading some of your responses on this thread, it's obvious to me the cynics and critics are already having an effect on your thinking. The LDS scriptures (including the Bible) teach us that only those who possess the Spirit of God and have strong testimonies of the Gospel and Restored Church can be effective and edifying in the teaching of the doctrines and principles of the Gospel. And whether anyone likes it or not, this principle is precisely what the scriptures teach. Therefore, it can be logically deduced that many of the answers to Gospel questions an investigator might receive from those who are shaky in their testimonies, and critical or lukewarm in their support of the living prophets, are likely going to lack the Spirit's authoritative and convincing power. And remember, until you've spent enough time on this board to get the hang of things, you're likely not going to know for sure when and if these cynical and skeptical dissenters and critics are among those who are answering your questions. The point I'm trying to make here distills down to one simple teaching of the Apostle Paul. He said: "... if the trumpet (i.e. a teacher of the Gospel) give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"Oh it is a great place to learn about the LDS church. One can see all sorts, from the hardliners conservatives like you to the skeptic but still active member who used to be like you and others, it's a great reflection of what Mormonism holds.
Teancum Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 I haven't discarded the truth or the way. We just disagree on what the truth and the way is, which includes what role the Holy Spirit plays in the process. Just because someone isn't a Mormon doesn't mean they're rejecting truth or ignoring the Holy Spirit.Don't worry. The down the line Mormons are convinced the few million of them in the world really have the one and only true gospel. Sadly such a thing really does not exist. At least as far as I can tell. The difference for me is I admit I could be wrong.
Teancum Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 We have to leave most of the tares alone. When the Savior returns and I see gay temple marriage advocates burning alongside me I will have the consolation that my sins were much more fun. It seems to me the perilously pious and the desperately dogmatic are the tares.
Teancum Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 Okay, where am I going with it? What chase? I'm just asking why someone would continue to believe in a faith system when they don't act like they believe in it. Is there something wrong with that question?culture, family, heritage, socials ties, tribe....all sorts of reasons.
JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 Because you're an investigator, I would say this discussion board is not a good place for you to learn about the LDS Church. Anyone still believe NAM is an investigator...
churchistrue Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 I don't see any splintering of the church. The benefits the church provides are largely due to its size and influence. Splinter groups would lose that, thus they will never amount to anything significant. I do see change from within due to the pressure the John Dehlins and Kate Kelleys put on the church. A lot of revelation has come from a prophet proactively seeking an answer on it. If we believe God leads the church, there should be no fear of reform prompted by this kind of activism.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 21, 2015 Author Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) I don't see any splintering of the church. The benefits the church provides are largely due to its size and influence. Splinter groups would lose that, thus they will never amount to anything significant. I do see change from within due to the pressure the John Dehlins and Kate Kelleys put on the church. A lot of revelation has come from a prophet proactively seeking an answer on it. If we believe God leads the church, there should be no fear of reform prompted by this kind of activism.Um, have you kept up to date on what happened to Kate Kelly and John Dehlin? The pattern throughout the years is that the dissenters arrive at a point where they realize they won't be able to seize control of the Church or force it to evolve to suit their preferences. They either give up in frustration or lead their own splinter group that languishes and eventually withers and dies. This is the Savior's Church, not some dissenter's. That's why it bears His name. Incidentally, I've noticed from time to time that dissenter's are loathe to refer to it by Christ's name, despite the expressed preference of the Brethren that we do so. Interesting, that. Edited March 21, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted March 21, 2015 Author Posted March 21, 2015 Anyone still believe NAM is an investigator... Heh. It looks like Teancum might. Me, I had him/her pegged from day one.
Stone holm Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 Um, have you kept up to date on what happened to Kate Kelly and John Dehlin?The pattern throughout the years is that the dissenters arrive at a point where they realize they won't be able to seize control of the Church or force it to evolve to suit their preferences. They either give up in frustration or lead their own splinter group that languishes and eventually withers and dies.This is the Savior's Church, not some dissenter's. That's why it bears His name.Incidentally, I've noticed from time to time that dissenter's are loathe to refer to it by Christ's name, despite the expressed preference of the Brethren that we do so. Interesting, that.I agree with this. Course some might point out Christ was a dissenter.
JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 I don't see any splintering of the church. The benefits the church provides are largely due to its size and influence. Splinter groups would lose that, thus they will never amount to anything significant. Um, you know there have been over 100 splinters from the Church.Some have crashed and burned and faded.Others are still going strong with 1000+ members and growth. I disagree that the large size of the Church and its influence provide its benefits. The Church had just as many benefits (from a doctrinal perspective) when there were only 15,000 members. Having 15,000,000 members provides more infrastructure and resources, but that is more administrative.I suppose perhaps you could argue that the number of temples is a spiritual benefit due to size....
Stone holm Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 I don't see any splintering of the church. The benefits the church provides are largely due to its size and influence. Splinter groups would lose that, thus they will never amount to anything significant. I do see change from within due to the pressure the John Dehlins and Kate Kelleys put on the church. A lot of revelation has come from a prophet proactively seeking an answer on it. If we believe God leads the church, there should be no fear of reform prompted by this kind of activism.Am tryin to understand the very first sentence here. That sounds like taking everything Christ taught during His earthly ministry and standing it on its head. Surely we are not attracted to the Church because of its size and worldly influence. 1
Bobbieaware Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Am tryin to understand the very first sentence here. That sounds like taking everything Christ taught during His earthly ministry and standing it on its head. Surely we are not attracted to the Church because of its size and worldly influence.The church must be large enough and powerful enough to fulfill the prophecies of scripture and effectively do the job it needs to do in preparation for the Second Coming of Christ. A small group with few members and resources would not be able to establish Zion and fulfill the Savior's great commission to send missionaries throughout the world to gather out the elect. The Book of Mormon indicates the church of the restoration, while not nearly as large and powerful as the dominion of the great whore of all the earth, will still be a world-wide institution of significant enough size, influence and power that that nations of all the world will feel the need to join forces to fight against it. A splinter group or small church of insignificant presence, power and influence does not fit the bill of the church of the restoration described in the scriptures. Edited March 21, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
Stone holm Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 The church must be large enough and powerful enough to fulfill the prophecies of scripture and effectively do the job it needs to do in preparation for the Second Coming of Christ. A small group with few members and resources would not be able to establish Zion and fulfill the Savior's great commission to send missionaries throughout the world to gather out the elect. The Book of Mormon indicates the church of the restoration, while not nearly as large and powerful as the dominion of the great whore of all the earth, will still be a world-wide institution of significant enough size, influence and power that that nations of all the world will feel the need to join forces to fight against it. A splinter group or small church of insignificant presence, power and influence does not fit the bill of the church of the restoration described in the scriptures.By " establishing Zion" do you mean establishing Mormonism, or building the City of Zion?
Bobbieaware Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) By " establishing Zion" do you mean establishing Mormonism, or building the City of Zion?Both. According to prophecy, the kingdom of God on earth will eventually stand independent above all earthly nations and kingdoms and will establish places of refuge (the New Jerusalem being the center stake and foremost place of refuge) for the righteous when endless wars and God's judgements of destruction sweep over a world ripened in iniquity. Edited March 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Scott Lloyd Posted March 22, 2015 Author Posted March 22, 2015 By " establishing Zion" do you mean establishing Mormonism, or building the City of Zion?False dichotomy.
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