Ezra Taft Benson Talks About The Last Days

[USU78]

I didn't say it didn't have a downside.

 

. . . or that cinepro wasn't doing highly serious damage to the concept of Common Consent as revealed and practiced.

 

Having a "Dead-In" by lying down in a head-to-foot chain on the sidewalk around Temple Square has nothing to do with Common Consent.

 

Or Gandhi for that matter.

[bluebell]

So if a prophet can speak "presumptuously" how is that President Joseph Fielding Smith says they don't:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/1972/04/eternal-keys-and-the-right-to-preside?lang=eng

And, on the topic of ancient prophets being able

to prophesy accurately, do you have any view on why Nephi appears to have been able to prophecy the future of the Americas with incredible apparent accuracy right up until 1830 but seems to have not seen any further than that?

 

Pres. Smith didn't actually believe that they don't.  

 

The paragraph after the one you quoted says-"An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be."

 

As for the issue with Nephi, can you share the prophecy that you believe he prophesied of that is closest to 1830 without going over (i feel like i'm channeling the Price is Right) so I have an idea of what you're talking about?

[cinepro]

Are you insinuating that it is because Joseph Smith was the author of a fictional Nephi, and therefore Nephi could only prophecy as far as Joseph Smith could see?  Did not Joseph Smith himself prophesy beyond his time?

 

Nephi explains that he saw up to the end of the world, but that he was forbidden to write his vision of the last days as that job was "ordained" unto John (1 Nephi 18-28).

 

I don't think it's an insinuation as much as it's an observation.  I mean, some of the prophecies are very, very specific regarding the time frame.  Others are very, very specific about people and events.  And some are even specific down to the exact name of a person that will be born centuries later.

 

No one reads those prophecies and feels like they have to invoke all the usual explanations on why they didn't get fulfilled.  "Oh, the calendar was different, and that one word meant something different back then, and God's time is different than our time, and the prophecy was based on peoples' faith which they didn't have so it's their fault it didn't get fulfilled...." and so on.

 

No, the prophesies are pretty dang clear and we read them and say "Oh, this is talking about Jesus who was born in that exact year, and this is Columbus, and this is Joseph Smith, just like it says."  But all that stops at 1830.  There are no clear, specific prophesies after that. 

[cinepro]

 

Pres. Smith didn't actually believe that they don't.  

 

The paragraph after the one you quoted says-"An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be."

 

As for the issue with Nephi, can you share the prophecy that you believe he prophesied of that is closest to 1830 without going over (i feel like i'm channeling the Price is Right) so I have an idea of what you're talking about?

 

Obviously, Nephi's conveyance of the prophecy of Joseph of Egypt that the person who brings forth The Book of Mormon would be named "Joseph" (and have the same name as his father) is pretty dang close to 1830.

 

If the Book of Mormon had similar prophesies about the names of post-1830 LDS Prophets ("and the second seer shall be named Brigham Young, and he shall be like a lion of the Lord, and shall lead the people even as Moses"), then that would be something, because from the perspective of Nephi it isn't any harder to prophesy about something happening in 1847 as 1830.  But if someone were creating the book in 1829, then it's a lot harder!*

 

Not insinuatin'.  Just sayin'.

 

*But obviously it wouldn't impress anyone, because they would just say Brigham Young was chosen as second prophet because the Book of Mormon says so.  Other than the fact that there was a convert with that name and he rose to a position where he could be the second prophet.

Edited January 22, 2015 by cinepro

[pogi]

It's just a bit odd that there are some incredibly specific prophecies about events 2000+ years into the future but no further than the events that were, for Joseph, historical.

Nephi's were far more specific than anything from Joseph's and much further into the future than Joseph's. Joseph might have made a few slightly vague predictions about short term possibilities but if he'd been able to prophecy, with similar accuracy, 100, 200, 2000 years into the future then I would be more impressed.

 

Perhaps Joseph refrained from prophesying in great detail about the last days for the same reason that Nephi refrained - That was John's job (1 Nephi 18-28).

 

Joseph did prophecy quite far into the future.  His farm boy vision of the future of this church as a world wide organization is quite remarkable considering its humble and meager beginnings. 

 

“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”

[cinepro]

I also suspect that if The Book of Mormon had name-specific prophecies for the post 1830 period, we would see lots of Church leaders changing their names, like the Popes or Ceasars. 

 

"Cecil Wilkins, I ordain you to be the third Prophet, and give you your true name of "John Taylor", as was foretold centuries ago."

Edited January 22, 2015 by cinepro

[cinepro]

That's not the only difference. Another one seems to be that EV's assert prophets cannot make mistakes when speaking in the name of the Lord. This is a very subtle point, because clearly there are prophets who get some things right, and they might even be things that are quite impressive/large. But unless they get every single thing they claimed for the Lord correct, no matter how small, they are not accepted as prophets. 

 

WHEN speaking for the lord. 

 

Interesting.

 

I was curious how President Benson's classic "14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophet" would figure in to this years lessons. 

 

It appears that much of Chapter 11, "Following the Living Prophet", is based on this talk.  So we should all be learning this in Church the second week of June.  So we have the interesting opportunity to discuss something before it is taught in Church.

 

Here's some of the important parts that would help us understand when we need to consider the Prophet's words "scripture":

 

 

 

… The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who argue about words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obliged to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you.” (D&C 21:4.)

 

 

Why? Because the living prophet gets at what we need to know now, and the world prefers that prophets either be dead or worry about their own affairs. …

How we respond to the words of a living prophet when he tells us what we need to know, but would rather not hear, is a test of our faithfulness. …

The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when he agrees with them, otherwise the prophet is just giving his opinion—speaking as a man. The rich may feel they have no need to take counsel of a lowly prophet. …

… The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

 

Common consent, or the idea that the Prophet might be mistaken on spiritual or doctrinal matters, is never mentioned in the lesson.

Edited January 22, 2015 by cinepro

[bluebell]

Obviously, Nephi's conveyance of the prophecy of Joseph of Egypt that the person who brings forth The Book of Mormon would be named "Joseph" (and have the same name as his father) is pretty dang close to 1830.

 

If the Book of Mormon had similar prophesies about the names of post-1830 LDS Prophets ("and the second seer shall be named Brigham Young, and he shall be like a lion of the Lord, and shall lead the people even as Moses"), then that would be something, because from the perspective of Nephi it isn't any harder to prophesy about something happening in 1847 as 1830.  But if someone were creating the book in 1829, then it's a lot harder!*

 

Not insinuatin'.  Just sayin'.

 

*But obviously it wouldn't impress anyone, because they would just say Brigham Young was chosen as second prophet because the Book of Mormon says so.  Other than the fact that there was a convert with that name and he rose to a position where he could be the second prophet.

 

 

Got it.  

 

Are there any other prophecies dealing with/related to Canard's question, or is that it?

[pogi]

I also suspect that if The Book of Mormon had name-specific prophecies for the post 1830 period, we would see lots of Church leaders changing their names, like the Popes or Ceasars. 

 

"Cecil Wilkins, I ordain you to be the third Prophet, and give you your true name of "John Taylor", as was foretold centuries ago."

 

There will be a war between the northern states and the southern states beginning in South Carolina; the southern states will call upon Great Britain for assistance; and slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

 

Did they change the name of South Carolina after this prophecy was given?  What about Great Britain?

[cinepro]

This classic is also included in the lesson:

 

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home. … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)20

[cinepro]

There will be a war between the northern states and the southern states beginning in South Carolina; the southern states will call upon Great Britain for assistance; and slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

 

Did they change the name of South Carolina after this prophecy was given?  What about Great Britain?

 

We've discussed this prophecy in the past.  Are you familiar with the Nullification Crisis? 

 

Anyhow, my thoughts about it are here.  It's one of those things where the more you know about it, the less impressive it is.

 

But to paraphrase my blog post in response to your paraphrasing of the prophecy, unless you take a really broad look at world history, Great Britain did not assist the South and then call upon other nations leading to an "outpouring of war upon all nations", and slaves did not rise up against their masters during the Civil War. 

 

That part of the prophecy may have been influenced by the Turner Slave Rebellion in 1831.  But that was really the last slave rebellion of note.

 

As for Great Britain...

 

 

 

The Confederate strategy for securing independence was largely based on the hope of military intervention by Britain and France, which didn't happen; intervention would have meant war with the United States.

----------------------------------------------------------

Once the war with the United States began, the best hope for the survival of the Confederacy was military intervention by Britain and France. The U.S. realized this as well and made it clear that recognition of the Confederacy meant war with the United States — and the cutoff of food shipments into Britain. The Confederates who had believed in "King Cotton" — that is, Britain had to support the Confederacy to obtain cotton for its industries— were proven wrong. Britain, in fact, had ample stores of cotton in 1861 and depended much more on grain from the U.S.[25]

----------------------------------------------------------

Throughout the war all the European powers adopted a policy of neutrality, meeting informally with Confederate diplomats but withholding diplomatic recognition. None ever sent an ambassador or official delegation to Richmond. However, they applied international law principles that recognized the Union and Confederate sides as belligerents. Canada allowed both Confederate and Union agents to work openly within its borders.[29]

Edited January 22, 2015 by cinepro

[pogi]

Let me get this straight, Joseph Smith was a prophet, seer, and revelator, but he could not prophecy, see, or reveal anything beyond his day?  The same goes for Nephi, John, Isaiah, etc.?

Edited January 22, 2015 by pogi

[SeekingUnderstanding]

We've discussed this prophecy in the past.  Are you familiar with the Nullification Crisis? 

 

Anyhow, my thoughts about it are here.  It's one of those things where the more you know about it, the less impressive it is.

 

But to paraphrase my blog post in response to your paraphrasing of the prophecy, unless you take a really broad look at world history, Great Britain did not assist the South and then call upon other nations leading to an "outpouring of war upon all nations", and slaves did not rise up against their masters during the Civil War.

Not to mention that the original version of the revelation read "and the Southern States will call on other  Nations even the Nation of Great Britian as it is called and they shall also call upon other Nations in order  to defend themselves against other Nations and thus  war shall be poured out upon all Nations..."

 

Without some pretty serious apologetic twisting, its pretty hard to say that war was poured out upon all Nations as a result of the civil war. The version we have now says 'then' instead of 'thus.' - making it a little easier to say that the war being poured out on all nations doesn't have to be explicitly linked to the civil war so long as at some point in the future there is a war in all nations.

Edited January 22, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

No, the prophesies are pretty dang clear and we read them and say "Oh, this is talking about Jesus who was born in that exact year, and this is Columbus, and this is Joseph Smith, just like it says." But all that stops at 1830. There are no clear, specific prophesies after that.

There is debate on whether it is Colombus or John Cabot or another explorer btw.

Dan Peterson once pointed out that not far away from the Smiths lived the Knights who also had a son named after his father, Joseph, and he wondered if that might have been plan B if Joseph Smith, Jr had gone a different path or some other choice prevented his participation.

Edited January 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

You can't compare the prophesies made by Nephi in the BoM and those made by JS. They're worlds apart in their detail and accuracy. As a believing member alarm bells would always sound off in my head when reading that portion of the BoM and I would have to quickly rush through it.

 

Are they? I suspect that the further prophecies in the Book of Mormon will be obvious to those who view them as the past. Not yet fulfilled prophecies always seem arcane while those that have been seem pretty obvious. Why should our generation be any different?

 

Put another way if a copy of the Book of Mormon had shown up in 11th Century England and was read would the prophecies about Columbus and the coming of independence to the New World be in any way obvious or would it seem vague and easy to fulfill in a hundred different ways?

[omni]

Are they? I suspect that the further prophecies in the Book of Mormon will be obvious to those who view them as the past. Not yet fulfilled prophecies always seem arcane while those that have been seem pretty obvious. Why should our generation be any different?

Put another way if a copy of the Book of Mormon had shown up in 11th Century England and was read would the prophecies about Columbus and the coming of independence to the New World be in any way obvious or would it seem vague and easy to fulfill in a hundred different ways?

So where are the super specific prophecies in the BoM that have been fulfilled from 1830-present? Doesn't it seem just a little convenient that some of the most specific and fulfilled prophesies in all of scripture occurred in the BoM before it was written?

[The Nehor]

So where are the super specific prophecies in the BoM that have been fulfilled from 1830-present? Doesn't it seem just a little convenient that some of the most specific and fulfilled prophesies in all of scripture occurred in the BoM before it was written?

I never claimed there were many. The truth is while this time on earth is vitally important we are not a time with a ton of prophecy. The restoration fulfilled prophecy. Joseph was rather bold about his own role. There was a bit about the migration to the mountains of Utah. Now we are between great events, between the restoration and the coming of the messiah at an unspecified date. We have a LOT of prophecy about both of those but relatively little in between. This is fairly normal. Look at Nephi's apocalypse. It covers roughly a thousand years of his people but whole centuries are passed over without comment. Our time is just not that important. The souls we help to save or damn are but we do not need prophecy to guide us. When things get hairy just before the Savior returns we will.

That being said, there is no lack of prophecy. It is just not general. I have prophesied the future on occasion about specific things happening twice. One happened; one is still to come. I have had others prophesy to me and to people I know several times. These prophecies are just not for general consumption. If it happens around me I assume it happens around and to many others. If you want more prophecy in your life be faithful and, equally importantly, ask. Paul advised everyone to covet the gift of prophecy. If there is a paucity of gifts in the church I would suggest it is because people are either not living in a way conducive to them or are not seeking them or both.

[canard78]

Got it.  

 

Are there any other prophecies dealing with/related to Canard's question, or is that it?

 

The discovery of the Americas, and Joseph's name.

You've also got the very specific nature of Christ's birth and his mother's name. Far more specific than any of the Old Testament prophets ever managed.

 

Perhaps the latest, and again, very specific prophecy was of 3 witnesses. This is possibly the only thing that happened after the dictation had happened but is perhaps easily classified as self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

E.g.

Ether 5: 1 And now I, Moroni, have written the words which were commanded me, according to my memory; and I have told you the things which I have asealed up; therefore touch them not in order that ye may translate; for that thing is forbidden you, except by and by it shall be wisdom in God.

 2 And behold, ye may be privileged that ye may show the plates unto athose who shall assist to bring forth this work;

 3 And unto athree shall they be shown by the power of God; wherefore they shall bknow of a surety that these things are ctrue.

 4 And in the mouth of three awitnesses shall these things be established; and the btestimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the power of God and also his word, of which the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost bear record—and all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day.

 

 

And again here (said to have been written by Nephi in around 600BC and predicting something 2400 years into the future):

2 Nep 27:12 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that athree bwitnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.

 13 And there is anone other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were bfrom the dead.

 14 Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to bring forth the words of the book; and in the mouth of as many witnesses as seemeth him good will he establish his word; and wo be unto him that arejecteth the word of God!

 

 

I like the way Nephi changes his mind half way through. 12: Only 3 others will share this secret. (Name that 80s TV show) and then 13: Oh, except for a few others who might see it too.

 

It seems Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer didn't need much persuading to be the 3 mentioned in the book:

 

Almost immediately after this discovery was made, Joseph wrote, “it occurred to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and ... Martin Harris ... that they would have me enquire of the Lord, to know if they might not obtain of him to be these three special witnesses; and finally they became so solicitous, and teazed me so much, that at length I complied, and through the Urim and Thummim, I obtained of the Lord for them [a revelation].”

 

https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-three-witnesses?lang=eng

 

Can you offer any prophecies in the Book of Mormon that are specific AND go beyond 1829?

[canard78]

 

Pres. Smith didn't actually believe that they don't.  

 

The paragraph after the one you quoted says-"An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be."

 

As for the issue with Nephi, can you share the prophecy that you believe he prophesied of that is closest to 1830 without going over (i feel like i'm channeling the Price is Right) so I have an idea of what you're talking about?

 

Here are some more examples of BoM's very specific prophecies that are unmatched in the Old Testament (and are unmatched by anything ever prophesied by Joseph Smith).

 

Messianic prophecies include the number of years until Jesus' birth (1 Ne. 10:4; Hel. 14:2), conditions surrounding his birth (1 Ne. 11:13-21), his mother's identity (Mosiah 3:8), the manner and location of his baptism by John the Baptist (1 Ne. 10:7-10), his miracles and teachings (1 Ne. 11:28-31), and his Atonement, resurrection, and second coming. Prophets foretold details concerning Christ's crucifixion and his atoning sacrifice, one stating that "blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people" (Mosiah 3:7). Furthermore, he would rise on the third day (2 Ne. 25:13) and appear to many (Alma 16:20). Samuel the Lamanite prophesied specific signs of Christ's birth and death to be experienced among Book of Mormon Peoples (Hel. 14).

 

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Prophecy_in_the_Book_of_Mormon

 

Lehi is even able to predict the words John the Baptist will use while preaching (600+ years before the sermon is given). He even uses the words the KJV will choose to translate this. That's some impressive prophesying!

 

1 Nep. 10:8 Yea, even he should go forth and cry in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight; for there standeth one among you whom ye know not; and he is mightier than I, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. And much spake my father concerning this thing.

 

 

Again, I'd be interested in any prophecy outside the Book of Mormon that is so specific.

 

Finally you've got the 1800s prophecies that all predate the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830. Cinepro covered these off already. 

 

References include:

• European exploration of America (1 Ne. 13:12-15)
• American Revolution (1 Ne. 13:16-19) 
• As already mentioned, Joseph's name and the 3 witnesses

No specific mentions in the BoM of anything post 1830.

Edited January 23, 2015 by canard78

[CV75]

No specific mentions in the BoM of anything post 1830.

I found a few:

 

1 Nephi 13:39 began to be fulfilled after 1830 and may be further fulfilled, “And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books [not just the Book or Mormon], which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.” This has been fulfilled in the other latter-day standard works.

 

The rest of these examples began to be fulfilled after 1830 and have been in process of being fulfilled through today, and I expect them to continue to be fulfilled until the New Jerusalem is established and all the remnants are gathered in from all over the world:

 

1 Nephi 13:12-23 (similar prophecy is found in 3 Nephi 20 and Mormon 5): “And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver… But if they [the Gentiles] will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.”

 

Ether 13:8-10, “Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance…”

 

3 Nephi 5:24, “And as surely as the Lord liveth, will he gather in from the four quarters of the earth all the remnant of the seed of Jacob, who are scattered abroad upon all the face of the earth.”

 

3 Nephi 16:1-5, “And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister. …And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone, that …through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in …And then will I gather them in from the four quarters of the earth; and then will I fulfil the covenant which the Father hath made unto all the people of the house of Israel.”

[pogi]

Perhaps the latest, and again, very specific prophecy was of 3 witnesses. This is possibly the only thing that happened after the dictation had happened but is perhaps easily classified as self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

How is the prophecy of the 3 witnesses "self-fulfilling"?  Did not an angel of the Lord appear to them and show them the plates?  Was that experience somehow elicited by the expectation of it?  Delusion?

[canard78]

How is the prophecy of the 3 witnesses "self-fulfilling"? Did not an angel of the Lord appear to them and show them the plates? Was that experience somehow elicited by the expectation of it? Delusion?

The prophecy doesn't promise an angel, just that they'd witness the plates.

A discussion about what the three witnesses actually saw is a very different topic which merits its own thread but has likely been discussed ad infinitum.

[canard78]

I found a few:

1 Nephi 13:39 began to be fulfilled after 1830 and may be further fulfilled, “And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books [not just the Book or Mormon], which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.” This has been fulfilled in the other latter-day standard works.

The rest of these examples began to be fulfilled after 1830 and have been in process of being fulfilled through today, and I expect them to continue to be fulfilled until the New Jerusalem is established and all the remnants are gathered in from all over the world:

1 Nephi 13:12-23 (similar prophecy is found in 3 Nephi 20 and Mormon 5): “And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver… But if they [the Gentiles] will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.”

Ether 13:8-10, “Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance…”

3 Nephi 5:24, “And as surely as the Lord liveth, will he gather in from the four quarters of the earth all the remnant of the seed of Jacob, who are scattered abroad upon all the face of the earth.”

3 Nephi 16:1-5, “And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister. …And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone, that …through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in …And then will I gather them in from the four quarters of the earth; and then will I fulfil the covenant which the Father hath made unto all the people of the house of Israel.”

Thanks for collecting these. They're all very good examples of exactly the opposite of what I gave as pre-1830s examples.

We have BoM prophecies with names, dates, specific locations and even the actual words of individuals that will be spoken by those people before 1830.

All prophecies that you're ascribing to a post-1830s event have no names, no dates, no specific locations and no words.

Isn't the difference obvious?

Edited January 23, 2015 by canard78

[pogi]

The prophecy doesn't promise an angel, just that they'd witness the plates.

 

Right, but their testimony of an angel showing them the plates refutes the accusation of it being a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If their testimonies are un-true or made-up, then it would be better characterized as "fraud" instead of "self-fulfilling prophecy".  The only other possible explanation is simultaneous and harmonious delusion.  The fact that an angel is not mentioned in the BOM makes it even more credible.  "self-fulfilling prophecy" relies on an expectation of a certain event - an angel was not expected to fulfill the prophecy. 

[canard78]

I'd be interested in examples of any non-BoM prophecy that comes anywhere close to the level of detail we find for the pre-1830 examples.

It would need to have some or all of the following features:

- Dates, several generations into the future (100s of years preferably)

- Named locations and roles for those locations

- Names of people and the words those people will speak or specific actions they will perform

Any takers?