Do You Believe In This Eternal Life?

[theplains]

Here's a daily devotional by Charles Price on the topic of eternal life?  Is this more a belief

amongst the Community of Christ than the LDS Church (where eternal life is exaltation)?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is essentially easy believism. I came across this doctrine a lot in West Virginia. A lot of Baptists held this view. I am glad that some still believe it because most Evangelicals deny this doctrine, when posting on this board. I knew it was something that is still taught.

 

 

 Eternal life is essentially the resurrection when spoken of by our evangelical friends. Everyone gets it. You don't need to do anything to be resurrected. 

 

Savlation on the other hand is something different. And when we say salvation we mean eternal life.

 

When the LDS talk of eternal life, more is required than being humble and holding out your empty hands and saying "Thank you Lord". The scriptures talk about a constant renewing and that we must endure to the end. How can you have eternal life right now, never to lose it, when Jesus said those that endure to the end shall have eternal life?

Edited December 1, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Buzzard]

I do, and considering my health issues, will be finding out sooner than I had hoped if my belief in an afterlife is correct.  I do feel pretty comfortable that it is, less so that I will end up on the right side of partial judgement that takes place immediately upon arrival. 

[Ahab]

"shall have" doesn't equal "get it immediately"

I do believe I shall have it, though, and I have accepted a personal promise from the Lord that I shall have eternal life.

[katherine the great]

So eternal life is here. Now. We don't have to wait for it. I admit I've never really thought about it that way. It kind of makes sense though because if the spiritual death is separation from God then eternal life could mean spiritual life in the here and now.

[The Nehor]

Seems vapid to me. Attempts to bring heaven to earth fall short. You can merit eternal life here (solely through the merits of Christ of course) but you cannot have it here. Death still looms though it becomes a treasured release instead of a source of some trepidation.

 

I must admit at some annoyance of those who preach the "be happy on earth" gospel. Jesus did not teach it. He promised his "peace" but told his followers to expect mostly trouble in this world. One of our hymns call this life a "vale of tears". The temple has less cheery adjectives to describe the world we live in and what we can expect.

 

There is some happiness in this world and we should seek it but never rely on it. Our treasures should exist in heaven so our heart is there too. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

I must admit at some annoyance of those who preach the "be happy on earth" gospel.

 

I have a feeling that lack of happiness on earth may not be a great sign ...

 

'And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still' (Mormon 9:14).

 

'And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual' (Mosiah 2:41).

 

'Yea, happy is that people, whose God is the Lord' (Psalm 144:15).

Edited December 2, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[Ahab]

The point I think is that if we are ever going to get eternal life then when we get it the eternal part means it applies to the past as well as the future. Doesn't mean it's going to be nothing but sunshine or we're going to see nothing but good times but the fact that it's called eternal life means it is eternal, not just from point X into the future.

[The Nehor]

I have a feeling that lack of happiness on earth may not be a great sign ...

 

'And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still' (Mormon 9:14).

 

'And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual' (Mosiah 2:41).

 

'Yea, happy is that people, whose God is the Lord' (Psalm 144:15).

 

Jacob appears to have been righteous and here is his view of his and his people's lives:

 

"And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days."

 

Abinadi was righteous and was blessed to be slowly burned to death.

 

Mormon was righteous and died fighting a hopeless war after the people he loved died and were damned.

 

Jesus was righteous and suffered unspeakable anguish.

 

Joseph Smith was righteous and was constantly betrayed and thrown into horrible circumstances.

 

Adam and Eve were righteous and watched most of their descendants fall to wickedness.

 

There is a kind of happiness and peace that comes from living the gospel but it is not the kind of happiness we generally think of. No one is guaranteed the latter no matter how righteous they are....well, at least not in this life. Some get more happiness then others in this life and we should obviously seek happiness but those who expect it as a reward what they do in life often die spiritually when things fall apart.

 

I believe that a community of saints truly living the gospel who build Zion would be the happiest people on earth but most never find it. As the Doctrine and Covenants say many sought it but could not find it and realized they were strangers and pilgrims on this earth.

 

In rebuttal to your scriptures:

 

In Mormon it talks about the happy being still happy at the Final Judgement. That will be true.....because the righteous will be (for the most part) resurrected and joyous.

 

In King Benjamin's speech I believe that the righteous are blessed....usually with whatever they need to progress further which may or may not be pleasant. I often have to be dragged kicking and screaming to my blessings and long for my cursings.

 

I do not take much in the way of doctrine from the Psalms. It is like trying to prove a doctrine using the modern hymn book. Too general and poetic to be of use beyond inspiration and consolation.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Abinadi was righteous and was blessed to be slowly burned to death. [Etc.]

 

You seem to be suggesting that one cannot be happy whilst experiencing tribulation, and yet God Himself claims a 'fullness of joy' despite, amongst other things, watching His children wander. To me, one of the greatest miracles is God's ability to bless me with happiness in the midst of tribulation, just like the people of Helam.

 

In rebuttal to your scriptures:

 

In Mormon it talks about the happy being still happy at the Final Judgement.

 

Precisely. Those who never find happiness before the end will be 'unhappy still', and those who were happy before the Judgement will be 'happy still'.

 

Brigham Young: 'By possessing the spirit of our holy religion, we are happy in the morning, we are happy at noon, we are happy in the evening; for the spirit of love and union is with us, and we rejoice in the spirit because, it is of God, and we rejoice in God, for he is the giver of every good thing. Every Latter-day Saint, who has experienced the love of God in his heart, after having received the remission of his sins, through baptism, and the laying on of hands, realizes that he is filled with joy, and happiness, and consolation. He may be in pain, in error, in poverty, or in prison, if necessity demands, still, he is joyful. This is our experience, and each and every Latter-day Saint can bear witness to it'.

 

I'm also reminded of the words attributed to Lyman Johnson: '"If I could believe ‘Mormonism’ as I did when I traveled with you and preached, if I possessed the world I would give it. I would give anything, I would suffer my right hand to be cut off, if I could believe it again. Then I was full of joy and gladness. My dreams were pleasant. When I awoke in the morning my spirit was cheerful. I was happy by day and by night, full of peace and joy and thanksgiving. But now it is darkness, pain, sorrow, misery in the extreme. I have never since seen a happy moment"'.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[Stargazer]

I've recently been studying a bit about quantum mechanics and the connection with the creation of the universe, and let me tell you, that is some eye-opening stuff.  Something that I have in past had a little bit of an idea about, has suddenly opened up a whole lot wider, in connection with eternal life.

 

Thing is, physicists have no freaking idea what there was before the Big Bang, and by all accounts the math is, in a word, impossible.  Numbers go into directions numbers aren't supposed to go.  There is apparently something outside the Universe, and it is completely and totally incomprehensible, and I mean REALLY incomprehensible -- these are my words, not some physicists, understand?  But if you think this Universe is really wild, you have no idea.

 

Eternal life (God's life), and even eternal life (immortality) are going to be so far out of your present understanding, either of them, that you cannot possibly imagine the slightest particle of it.  Richard Feynman is famous for having once said, "...if you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you DON'T understand quantum mechanics."  And my corollary to Feynman's statement is "If you think you understand Eternity, then you DON'T understand Eternity."  You aren't just going to live for a long time in pleasant circumstances.  It will be like Monty Python's: "Now for something COMPLETELY different."

 

Try to imagine what's on the other side of the sky -- and I don't mean what's 13 billion light-years away, I mean what is on the other side of the SKY.  Try to comprehend Infinity.  Better yet, don't try -- it may have driven the brilliant mathematician Georg Cantor ultimately insane, trying to understand it.  I do believe that Eternal life is even more incomprehensible than infinity. 

 

And definitely too complicated for my tired brain.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Stargazer

[katherine the great]

 

I must admit at some annoyance of those who preach the "be happy on earth" gospel. 

I'm sorry that annoys you.  Happiness doesn't come from living in a perfect world, and it isn't something we find and then we're happy.  It comes from inside of us and its a decision that we make every day--to be happy.

[The Nehor]

I'm sorry that annoys you.  Happiness doesn't come from living in a perfect world, and it isn't something we find and then we're happy.  It comes from inside of us and its a decision that we make every day--to be happy.

I appreciate the sentiment and agree that happiness is something we can cultivate even in difficult circumstances but I do not believe happiness is something we experience independent of our circumstances. If it was there would be no need for heaven because we could all be perfectly happy here if we just chose to.

You seem to be suggesting that one cannot be happy whilst experiencing tribulation, and yet God Himself claims a 'fullness of joy' despite, amongst other things, watching His children wander. To me, one of the greatest miracles is God's ability to bless me with happiness in the midst of tribulation, just like the people of Helam.

No, I am saying that there is no God-given guarantee of happiness in tribulation and that even if you do experience happiness it is more limited then what you could experience without said tribulation.

Or maybe God just doesn't like me so I do not get that level of happiness in tribulation. Suppose it is possible......wait.....no.....not like me? Barely possible for a flawed mortal. A perfected being could never dislike me.

[Ahab]

Questions for anyone: Do you think a happy person never gets sad? What do you see as the difference between having joy and having happiness, if any? Do you think people who are sad can't be happy or have joy at the same time?

[pogi]

but I do not believe happiness is something we experience independent of our circumstances.

 

Well, we can't really experience anything independent of our circumstances.  we can't always avoid our present circumstance, but we can choose how we react to it.  If our happiness is dependent upon our outward circumstances, then we are merely emotional puppets to circumstance.  We would be no better than the elements which have no choice in how they react to a given stimulus.  I refuse to yield my emotional control to circumstance whereby I would relent accountability for my emotional state, always being acted upon but never acting (emotionally speaking).

 

If it was there would be no need for heaven because we could all be perfectly happy here if we just chose to.

 

We can be happy in this life, but we cannot be "perfectly" happy until we are able to live by every law by which it is predicated.  We would have to be like God.  So, we can be happy and still hope for more.

Edited December 2, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

Or maybe God just doesn't like me so I do not get that level of happiness in tribulation.

 

I know you are joking, but this is the problem that most unhappy people have, they blame it on other people or circumstances out of their control.  They are puppets.

[Rob Osborn]

We can be alive spiritually or be dead spiritually but until we become resurrected and come before judgment we neither go into either eternal life nor eternal death. Those two states are reserved for how we have become at that point- to merit one or the other.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[The Nehor]

I know you are joking, but this is the problem that most unhappy people have, they blame it on other people or circumstances out of their control.  They are puppets.

Many people choose comfortable familiar misery but taken too far this position leads to callousness. Imagine if after Jacob's sermon at the temple denouncing love of wealth and infidelity in marriage if he had turned to the victims, the wives and children, and told them to stop blaming their unhappiness on their circumstances and their philandering husbands/fathers and were told their inability to rejoice was their fault.

Well, we can't really experience anything independent of our circumstances.  we can't always avoid our present circumstance, but we can choose how we react to it.  If our happiness is dependent upon our outward circumstances, then we are merely emotional puppets to circumstance.  We would be no better than the elements which have no choice in how they react to a given stimulus.  I refuse to yield my emotional control to circumstance whereby I would relent accountability for my emotional state, always being acted upon but never acting (emotionally speaking).

Not true. We have the ability to alter our circumstances though admittedly to a limited degree.

So if your child was shot before your eyes you would not become angry or sad because that would be yielding emotional control and relenting accountability and instead just choose to be happy?

[pogi]

Many people choose comfortable familiar misery but taken too far this position leads to callousness. Imagine if after Jacob's sermon at the temple denouncing love of wealth and infidelity in marriage if he had turned to the victims, the wives and children, and told them to stop blaming their unhappiness on their circumstances and their philandering husbands/fathers and were told their inability to rejoice was their fault.

Not true. We have the ability to alter our circumstances though admittedly to a limited degree.

So if your child was shot before your eyes you would not become angry or sad because that would be yielding emotional control and relenting accountability and instead just choose to be happy?

 

I think it is important to recognize happiness as a foundational state upon which we can experience the high's and low's of life.  We can be happy through trials, tribulation, pain, and sorrow without displaying a plastic smile or cheery attitude.  We can feel happiness in sorrow.  I have done so.  Christ taught us to rejoice in tribulation in the new testament.  This message was repeated and emphasized to Joseph Smith while in Carthage.  We don't have to like our circumstances to have a foundational happiness.  Think of Victor Frankl. He is inspiring because he did not allow circumstance to alter his foundational state of being.  It is possible to emotionally rise above our circumstance.  This allows us to see the big picture.  It is all about perspective. 

 

In life (unlike physics, where an action always causes an equal and opposite reaction) one person’s action upon another person does not always cause an equal or opposite reaction in the receiver.  One person may react completely different than another person given the same stimulus.  How could this be possible if circumstances dictate our emotional response?

 

One thing is for sure, if you take a person who's foundational state of being is unhappy, and put them in different circumstances, they will find a reason to be unhappy still.  Victor Frankl proved the opposite to be true as well.  "Those who are happy shall be happy still, those who are unhappy shall be unhappy still."

Edited December 2, 2014 by pogi

[Hamba Tuhan]

So if your child was shot before your eyes you would not become angry or sad because that would be yielding emotional control and relenting accountability and instead just choose to be happy?

 

A number of years ago, I came home to receive the unexpected news that my 5-year-old nephew had been killed. At the time I was living/working about 400 km from my hometown, so I waited til the next morning to begin the long, difficult journey to be with my family. Along the way I experienced crazy fluctuations in my emotions. One minute I was filled with mourning and a sense of loss; the next minute would bring a wave of peace and comfort that would fill me from top to toe. As I neared my brother and sister-in-law's house, though, I tried to steel myself so that I could be supportive of them during this difficult time.

 

I was not expecting what I found when I walked into their home. They, my eldest brother and his wife, and my parents were all gathered around the table working on funeral plans. An incredible peace and sense of purpose permeated the scene. I was invited to join them, and I quickly discovered the immediate source of this peace. My brother and his wife had made the decision, in the midst of their inevitable sadness, to focus their funeral plans on how to comfort and strengthen the man responsible for their son's death, an elderly farmer who lived across the street. Every single decision taken -- speakers, topics, hymns, musical items, seating arrangements, burial plans, etc. -- had to answer a single question: What will bless R--?

 

They could so easily have chosen to think about themselves and their loss. They could have sought to assuage their own pain. They could have planned a funeral for themselves. Instead, because of what they had learnt from the Restored Gospel, they made a conscious decision to forget themselves and focus their efforts and thoughts outward -- to the man across the street who, they knew, was drowning in his own sorrow, regret, shame, and sense of loss. I know many people will fail to understand how planning and executing the funeral for one's own son can be a happy event, but I was there, and it was. My brother and sister-in-law embraced the gift of agency and, very simply, chose to be happy by choosing to carefully follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

The funeral and burial were beautiful. I gave the opening prayer and wept openly with a heart full of gratitude for the goodness of God. The neighbour and his wife had a seat reserved for them with the immediate family, took seats of honour at the burial, and sat with my brother and his wife at the family meal after the burial. Did we all feel the loss? Abosolutely! But the pain of the loss was swallowed up in the joy that came from seeking to be/do good.

 

And the happiness generated that week lasted. The man who took my nephew's life went from being a mere neighbour (and potential enemy) to being an important part of my brother's family. As the weeks passed, my brother and his wife kept up their commitment to bless him and his wife, to reassure them that no ill will or resentment existed. They were invited round for Sunday lunches, summer barbecues, family nativities on Christmas Eve, etc. As the older couple aged further, my brother and sister-in-law increasingly watched over them, took them to doctor visits, made sure they had food, regularly checked on them, prayed for and with them, etc. They did so until both neighbours passed away recently.

 

I know firsthand that my brother and his wife still miss their son and look forward to a future reunion. But in the meantime they made a choice to be happy, one based, as all such choices must be, on 'the spirit of our holy religion' and its liberating teachings.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Hamba, what definitely should bring you comfort is that since your nephew died before age 8 he is guaranteed exaltation in the top of the Celestial Kingdom if he so desires it. That's a wonderful thought knowing he is protected and is alright. I love the Plan of Salvation and I love God and Jesus' mercy and love for all of Heavenly Father's children.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Thanks, VGJ. I'm sure you mean well, but to be honest, I don't really worry about such things generally, let alone in the specific case of my nephew. (My nephew has been joined the past few years by my parents and my younger sister, and I don't worry about them either.) As I tried to indicate in my earlier post, we've had all the comfort we've needed and then some! God is indeed merciful.

[The Nehor]

A number of years ago, I came home to receive the unexpected news that my 5-year-old nephew had been killed. At the time I was living/working about 400 km from my hometown, so I waited til the next morning to begin the long, difficult journey to be with my family. Along the way I experienced crazy fluctuations in my emotions. One minute I was filled with mourning and a sense of loss; the next minute would bring a wave of peace and comfort that would fill me from top to toe. As I neared my brother and sister-in-law's house, though, I tried to steel myself so that I could be supportive of them during this difficult time.

 

I was not expecting what I found when I walked into their home. They, my eldest brother and his wife, and my parents were all gathered around the table working on funeral plans. An incredible peace and sense of purpose permeated the scene. I was invited to join them, and I quickly discovered the immediate source of this peace. My brother and his wife had made the decision, in the midst of their inevitable sadness, to focus their funeral plans on how to comfort and strengthen the man responsible for their son's death, an elderly farmer who lived across the street. Every single decision taken -- speakers, topics, hymns, musical items, seating arrangements, burial plans, etc. -- had to answer a single question: What will bless R--?

 

They could so easily have chosen to think about themselves and their loss. They could have sought to assuage their own pain. They could have planned a funeral for themselves. Instead, because of what they had learnt from the Restored Gospel, they made a conscious decision to forget themselves and focus their efforts and thoughts outward -- to the man across the street who, they knew, was drowning in his own sorrow, regret, shame, and sense of loss. I know many people will fail to understand how planning and executing the funeral for one's own son can be a happy event, but I was there, and it was. My brother and sister-in-law embraced the gift of agency and, very simply, chose to be happy by choosing to carefully follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

The funeral and burial were beautiful. I gave the opening prayer and wept openly with a heart full of gratitude for the goodness of God. The neighbour and his wife had a seat reserved for them with the immediate family, took seats of honour at the burial, and sat with my brother and his wife at the family meal after the burial. Did we all feel the loss? Abosolutely! But the pain of the loss was swallowed up in the joy that came from seeking to be/do good.

 

And the happiness generated that week lasted. The man who took my nephew's life went from being a mere neighbour (and potential enemy) to being an important part of my brother's family. As the weeks passed, my brother and his wife kept up their commitment to bless him and his wife, to reassure them that no ill will or resentment existed. They were invited round for Sunday lunches, summer barbecues, family nativities on Christmas Eve, etc. As the older couple aged further, my brother and sister-in-law increasingly watched over them, took them to doctor visits, made sure they had food, regularly checked on them, prayed for and with them, etc. They did so until both neighbours passed away recently.

 

I know firsthand that my brother and his wife still miss their son and look forward to a future reunion. But in the meantime they made a choice to be happy, one based, as all such choices must be, on 'the spirit of our holy religion' and its liberating teachings.

I think you are missing what I am saying. I love the story though. Thanks for sharing. My point is that circumstances can limit happiness. As happy as they were they missed their child. They found joy in an eventual reunion and in doing good as they can now and that is a wonderful thing and more people should do that. Still, there is joy delayed. The fulness of happiness does not come here and sorrow and pain are the common lot of humanity. We can and should mitigate them as we can with joy but we cannot do it totally and some lack the spiritual strength to make much headway at all.

Perhaps it would be easier to show an example that is just pain. Several years back I had a series of kidney stones. I had the good fortune of them always passing on their own and the bad fortune of them always lodging in what my doctor insisted was the most painful area. It gave me a new understanding of what physical suffering can be. I learned a lot from it. I developed more compassion and a new appreciation for what the atonement must have felt like. That is the lemonade I made from the lemons. The lemons were still excruciating. Could I be happy while enduring it? Maybe if my will was stronger. All I wanted was for the pain to stop. Circumstances made me unhappy and if I was told that in heaven I would feel that pain constantly but could be happy if I tried I would look for another heaven or perhaps reevaluate hell. That is what I mean by pain and sorrow being a constant in this life. We can understand it and take it as a lesson but without the hope of a resurrection the whole thing collapses for me. I can endure pain with some cheer for a season only with the promise that that season will eventually end.

[Hamba Tuhan]

As happy as they were they missed their child. They found joy in an eventual reunion and in doing good as they can now and that is a wonderful thing and more people should do that. Still, there is joy delayed.

 

Do you think circumstances are somehow different for our Heavenly Parents when they miss a wayward child but know for certain that there will be no eventual reunion? Is God's 'fulness of joy' not just 'joy delayed' but 'joy denied' as a consequence of our agency?

[The Nehor]

Do you think circumstances are somehow different for our Heavenly Parents when they miss a wayward child but know for certain that there will be no eventual reunion? Is God's 'fulness of joy' not just 'joy delayed' but 'joy denied' as a consequence of our agency?

No, I don't. My last genuine faith crisis (to date anyway) was questioning why I should seek to become a God if that is part of the job. A few years back it really troubled me....and to be fair the devil was playing with me then too and I was playing along. I have since learned not to do that. The atonement, as horrible as it was to endure, was temporary pain. Would not damned children be permanent pain? I have only the beginning of an answer with a few truths that do not really form a bigger picture yet but I trust God enough when I was told there is much more I am missing.