Do You Believe In This Eternal Life?

[pogi]

Isn't that the beauty of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

 

No contingencies.  No divine PSs.  No additional items needed.

 

If you are willing to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ alone is enough for eternal life.

 

Huh?

Edited December 5, 2014 by pogi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Huh?

Rofl!!! Best thing I have seen all week.

[FormerLDS]

I don't know what that has to do with the validity of your poll.

 

You do understand that there are a miriad of interpretations to scripture right?  For example, search for the word "reward" in scripture and see what comes up.  All of these "rewards" mentioned, are they not gifts?

 

Matt 16:27

Matt 6:1-4

Matt 5:12

 

That is just Matthew, there are 71 references to "reward" in the OT and 36 in the NT.  We will never agree on interpretation of scripture, because that is dictated by belief.

 

A "gift" is never a "reward".  

 

A reward is only earned through worthy behavior and never freely given.

[pogi]

A "gift" is never a "reward".  

 

A reward is only earned through worthy behavior and never freely given.

 

Rewards are contingent, gifts are not.  Got it.  What were you saying about contingency and eternal life?

[Calm]

 

For LDS, "eternal life" comes through strict obedience to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

And yet again...telling LDS what we believe.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A "gift" is never a "reward".  

 

A reward is only earned through worthy behavior and never freely given.

What is the difference between a reward and a gift? Nothing really. A gift can be a reward and a reward is a gift. When I go to work and put in 40 hours a week and get a pay check I don't call it a reward. It is a wage. What you are doing is saying anything that requires effort on our part makes it a reward not a gift. What you really mean is that it is a wage at this point. But the scriptures never say that.

 

Even in your theology something is required to get the gift, some amount of work is required. Even if that work is a mere mental accpentance. According to you, that gift at this point is not a gift but a wage or "reward".

 

Don't you see now how silly that looks to look at it that way. It is still a gift. We can never do anything to earn the eternal life. For that would require us to be perfect. We cannot do that. So from then on out it is always a gift.

 

 

BTW this "gift" or eternal life, is never once is refered to as a "free gift" in scrpitures. It is freely given to all but it is not a free gift as you imply.

 

The only time free gfit is mentions is in refernce to the resurrection. That truley is a free gift to all.

 

 

3 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’stransgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Stargazer]

Do you understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward"?

 

A "reward" is a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort or achievement.

 

A "gift" is a thing given willingly to someone without payment.  A present is a gift.

 

 

LDS theology always changes the "gift" of God into the reward of worthy behavior.

A distinction without a difference. The Pharisees, too, were anxious to split hairs with great abandon.

You can try, but you cannot escape the fact that even in your own theology Christ requires some positive act of yours (accepting Him as your personal Savior) before he "gives" eternal life. Thus it is inescapable that there is a quid-pro-quo involved. No matter how much you try to split hairs, you are no better off than we are when it comes to Christ's Grace. You think that you can minimize your worth sufficiently to make it become zero, but you cannot. The only ones who can possibly be rated as having made Zero effort to the extent necessary to be said to have done nothing and thus gotten an absolutely free gift, are those who never heard of Christ in the first place.

I happen to know that I cannot earn my way into heaven, so to speak, but must rely wholly upon the Grace of Christ. Yet without my earnest effort to keep His commandments (and He did say to "keep my commandments") He will not dispense that Grace.

The thing is, as King Benjamin once said, if I should spend my life wholly and freely in doing good, and keeping the commandments, I would still be an unprofitable servant. The gap between me and God is so wide that all of my efforts, no matter how much I give, cannot bridge even one micron of the distance. This is because the gap is INFINITELY wide. To bridge it requires an INFINITE sacrifice that I am incapable of making, but which Christ has already made. That is my only hope, and I will work earnestly to obtain it.

I do not believe in Cheap Grace.

When Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic concept of merit (whereby the Saints had done more than necessary for their own salvation, and thus created a surplus that the Church could dispense at will), he took it too far in the other direction. And called the Book of James the "Book of Straw" because James actually esteemed works as necessary. And that is where you are tripping up, as well.

[Stargazer]

So you have to mentally do something to get this gift?

I've been trying to figure this out for years. It hasn't simplified itself. I believe that you do have to do something to get the gift, but FormerLDS seems to believe that as soon as you do something it is no longer a gift, but a reward. And since God doesn't give rewards, you're hosed.

This seems to be a theology of non-action.

Although I bet that after you've obtained the gift, you better have works to demonstrate that you actually got the gift, or it's evidence that you didn't really get it. A delightfully circular argument.

[Stargazer]

I have to write further on this topic, or else FormerLDS will get the wrong idea.

This is the cast iron fact of the matter. My having broken a commandment (which one or ones is unimportant) has placed me at infinite odds with God. I can repent all I want, forever, and it won't matter one teensy bit. I am forever closed out of the presence of God. This is because no matter what I do, I can never erase the fact that I broke the commandment(s). God once said that He cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. He can't overlook it; he can't excuse it; he can't pretend to ignore it; and He certainly can't forget it.

And yet, hope is not all lost!

This is because God, knowing I would screw up (having seen it in advance), still loves me and wants to give me the opportunity to jump over the fact of my sin and return to Him. The only way to do this is to send His Son to live on the earth, and be subject to temptation and yet never break any commandment. And then He nevertheless voluntarily takes upon Himself the penalty for sin. Now, because he had no sin, yet suffered as if He had, He becomes the Savior, and has infinite merit. Finally, He may use this merit to bridge the chasm which I have created for myself. All that he requires of me is that I make a good faith effort to obey His commandments, and endure to the end (as He had to). The amazing thing is this: it is not hard to do this! He Himself said that his yoke is not heavy and His burden was light. But there was still a yoke and a burden. And shouldering this yoke and this burden still requires a non-zero effort.

Yet it is still His grace that saves me, after all I can do has been done. Because my efforts cannot save me.

I can only hope that I have made it clear enough.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Stargazer

[telnetd]

Rewards are contingent, gifts are not.  Got it.  What were you saying about contingency and eternal life?

 

Give a Christmas gift to someone that you have never met and you don't know

anything about beforehand. They will probably say "why are you giving this to me?

What have I done?".  You can then reply, "nothing ... it is a gift".   They may in turn

say, "oh, ok, I thought it was because I did something to merit it".

 

Gail

[pogi]

Give a Christmas gift to someone that you have never met and you don't know

anything about beforehand. They will probably say "why are you giving this to me?

What have I done?".  You can then reply, "nothing ... it is a gift".   They may in turn

say, "oh, ok, I thought it was because I did something to merit it".

 

Gail

 

Hi Gail,

True enough, but I am not sure what I am supposed to glean from this.  Are you suggesting that eternal life is given like this gift with no contingency?

[Stargazer]

Hi Gail,

True enough, but I am not sure what I am supposed to glean from this.  Are you suggesting that eternal life is given like this gift with no contingency?

It appears to be a form of calculus, where the action required to obtain the gift is found somewhere down the zero axis, but never quite touches it. An asymptotic line. Yet it is so close to zero that they feel comfortable calling it zero.

What is forgotten is that the magnitude of the gift is so great (hint: it's infinite) that no amount of finite effort (and that's the only kind we can muster), can be said to merit it. In fact, spending your whole life working in service to the One, and even giving one's life as a martyr is comparatively speaking the functional equivalent of whispering "I accept You as my personal Savior." Against an infinite gift, any finite work is so close to zero as to make no difference.

And yet, it isn't zero. Jesus Himself stated that one must be baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost (be born of water and the Spirit) in order to inherit eternal life, and this is a finite, non-zero work. Which is probably why there are some Christian sects out there which attempt to minimize the work down to a doctrine that which regards even baptism as unnecessary and quite optional. Despite the fact that the Lord Himself was baptized and stated that doing so fulfilled all righteousness. Yet despite the Lord's clear statement, these still manage to miss the point.

When Paul writes, in Philippians 2:12:

 

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.

He is quite clear that works are necessary.

Some people get confused as to the "fear" part. The word has changed in its meaning over the centuries since the King James Version was translated, and whereas it used to connote "awe", "reverence" or "respect", it connotes something more negative now. And working out? I am no Greek scholar, but I am told that the Greek verb in this case means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition."

A very good non-LDS discussion of this verse can be found here:

http://www.gotquestions.org/fear-and-trembling.html

 

David O. McKay said:

 

“An outstanding doctrine of the Church is that each individual carries the responsibility to work out his own salvation, and salvation is a process of gradual development. The Church does not accept the doctrine that a mere murmured belief in Jesus Christ is all that is necessary. A man may say he believes, but if he does nothing to make that belief or faith a moving power to do, to accomplish, to produce soul growth, his professing will avail him nothing. ‘Work out your salvation’ is an exhortation to demonstrate by activity, by thoughtful, obedient effort the reality of faith. But this must be done with a consciousness that absolute dependence upon self may produce pride and weakness that will bring failure. With ‘fear and trembling’ we should seek the strength and grace of God for inspiration to obtain the final victory.

 

“To work out one’s salvation is not to sit idly by dreaming and yearning for God miraculously to thrust bounteous blessings into our laps. It is to perform daily, hourly, momentarily, if necessary, the immediate task or duty at hand, and to continue happily in such performance as the years come and go, leaving the fruits of such labors either for self or for others to be bestowed as a just and beneficent Father may determine.” (David O. McKay in CR, Apr. 1957, p. 7.)

So don't get confused by the asymptotic nature of the work you need to perform. After all of the work you do, yet you are an unprofitable servant, and merit nothing. Only through the merit of the Lord Jesus Christ can you hope to be saved, but His Grace is sufficient.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Stargazer

[Calm]

Hi Gail,

True enough, but I am not sure what I am supposed to glean from this.  Are you suggesting that eternal life is given like this gift with no contingency?

The analogy doesn't work given our prior relationship with God anyway....

[3DOP]

Hi Stargazer,

 

I commend you for a partial and almost perfect grasp of how the Catholic Church understands the ways in which in a certain sense, as "little Christs", the Catholic Christian believes he may offer his own crosses and sufferings as Jesus did for the salvation of souls in this life or in purgatory, either procuring or hastening their immediate entrance into the presence of God. But there is one necessary distinction which is usually misunderstood, and as stated, makes your comment below inadequate to describe the belief. The distinction is that the "little Christs" cannot procure the salvation of the soul. Only Jesus Christ paid the eternal punishment for sins, while allowing us faithful to suffer our own punishments (often called temporal punishment) in this life or in purgatory.

 

We would point as an illustration of this concept to King David when he was guilty of adultery and of murdering the husband of Bathsheba. The prophet Nathan accused David, and David repented bitterly receiving God's forgiveness. Nathan said his sins were forgiven, so why did he suffer more for them? We believe that David went to heaven because of the future atonement which saved him from the eternal punishment of his sin, but yet he still necessarily suffered in this life (temporal punishment) for his sins, beginning with the death of his and Bathsheba's first child.

 

It is not inaccurate to say that relief from purgatorial sufferings in this life is a "kind of salvation". But as you have written it, many would confuse the surplus merits of the saints which as you said, the Church freely dispenses, with the salvation from eternal damnation which no one except the Son of God could procure for us. No indulgence, and no saint has ever saved anyone from eternal punishment, only the temporal punishments. God could have proclaimed that it is just to have all of our temporal punishments forgiven as a result of the infinite merits of Christ's Atonement. But He deemed it more fitting and in keeping with our dignity as sons and daughters of God, that we might imitate His only Begotten Son, by allowing that the saints (all of us) should be allowed to joyfully suffer with Christ our Head, for those temporal punishments which must be remitted before entrance to Heaven. For these sufferings to be meritorious for others we must suffer them with  charitable resignation and obedience to God's Will, as our Saviour did, doing the will of Him who sent Him. 

 

This is what we think the Apostle Paul means when he speaks of us "filling up that which is wanting in the sufferings of Christ". 

 

Stargazer

When Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic concept of merit (whereby the Saints had done more than necessary for their own salvation, and thus created a surplus of merit that the Church could dispense at will)...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I've been trying to figure this out for years. It hasn't simplified itself. I believe that you do have to do something to get the gift, but FormerLDS seems to believe that as soon as you do something it is no longer a gift, but a reward. And since God doesn't give rewards, you're hosed.

This seems to be a theology of non-action.

Although I bet that after you've obtained the gift, you better have works to demonstrate that you actually got the gift, or it's evidence that you didn't really get it. A delightfully circular argument.

Well, what I asked does take us to the nub of their argument.

 

The only people that have a leg to stand on as far as "Salvation being a gift in which no action on our end is required" are the Calvinist. And I have more problems with their theology than I do the "easy believism" crowd.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[FormerLDS]

Huh?

 

Should be obvious, but "believe" is contingent upon the absence of unbelief.  

[FormerLDS]

And yet again...telling LDS what we believe.

 

According to LDS theology, specifically which commandments are you free to not obey?

 

The third article of faith doesn't say "...all mankind may be saved, by obedience to some of the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

[FormerLDS]

What is the difference between a reward and a gift? Nothing really. A gift can be a reward and a reward is a gift. When I go to work and put in 40 hours a week and get a pay check I don't call it a reward. It is a wage. What you are doing is saying anything that requires effort on our part makes it a reward not a gift. What you really mean is that it is a wage at this point. But the scriptures never say that.

 

Even in your theology something is required to get the gift, some amount of work is required. Even if that work is a mere mental accpentance. According to you, that gift at this point is not a gift but a wage or "reward".

 

Don't you see now how silly that looks to look at it that way. It is still a gift. We can never do anything to earn the eternal life. For that would require us to be perfect. We cannot do that. So from then on out it is always a gift.

 

 

BTW this "gift" or eternal life, is never once is refered to as a "free gift" in scrpitures. It is freely given to all but it is not a free gift as you imply.

 

The only time free gfit is mentions is in refernce to the resurrection. That truley is a free gift to all.

 

Romans 6:23  contrasts a "wage" with a "gift":

 

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

Clearly, according to the scripture, "eternal life" is a free gift offered to all.

 

No amount of work could be required for a "gift"...

[FormerLDS]

A distinction without a difference. The Pharisees, too, were anxious to split hairs with great abandon.

You can try, but you cannot escape the fact that even in your own theology Christ requires some positive act of yours (accepting Him as your personal Savior) before he "gives" eternal life. Thus it is inescapable that there is a quid-pro-quo involved. No matter how much you try to split hairs, you are no better off than we are when it comes to Christ's Grace. You think that you can minimize your worth sufficiently to make it become zero, but you cannot. The only ones who can possibly be rated as having made Zero effort to the extent necessary to be said to have done nothing and thus gotten an absolutely free gift, are those who never heard of Christ in the first place.

I happen to know that I cannot earn my way into heaven, so to speak, but must rely wholly upon the Grace of Christ. Yet without my earnest effort to keep His commandments (and He did say to "keep my commandments") He will not dispense that Grace.

The thing is, as King Benjamin once said, if I should spend my life wholly and freely in doing good, and keeping the commandments, I would still be an unprofitable servant. The gap between me and God is so wide that all of my efforts, no matter how much I give, cannot bridge even one micron of the distance. This is because the gap is INFINITELY wide. To bridge it requires an INFINITE sacrifice that I am incapable of making, but which Christ has already made. That is my only hope, and I will work earnestly to obtain it.

I do not believe in Cheap Grace.

When Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic concept of merit (whereby the Saints had done more than necessary for their own salvation, and thus created a surplus that the Church could dispense at will), he took it too far in the other direction. And called the Book of James the "Book of Straw" because James actually esteemed works as necessary. And that is where you are tripping up, as well.

 

So let me get this straight.  On the one hand you "cannot earn my way into heaven", but on the other hand, you can't get there without an "earnest effort to keep His commandments"?

 

"Believe" is not a work.  Consider Romans 4:5  "But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."  

 

How could belief be a work? Works are contrasted with belief.

[pogi]

Should be obvious, but "believe" is contingent upon the absence of unbelief.  

 

Its still not obvious to me what you are saying.  It seems as if you are contradicting yourself again here.  You said in the previous post that there are "no contingencies", yet this is the second time that you say there are contingencies.  Unbelief and belief don't just happen outside of our control, but are contingent upon our choices.

 

The only way that you can erase contingencies all together is to believe, as Mola Ram has pointed out, in Calvinism.  You don't believe that God gives you this "saving" belief outside of your agency or control do you?  If not, then you believe like I do, in a contingent salvation.  You cannot get around the "IF" that is required for salvation that only you can provide.

Edited December 8, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

Romans 6:23  contrasts a "wage" with a "gift":

 

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

Clearly, according to the scripture, "eternal life" is a free gift offered to all.

 

No amount of work could be required for a "gift"...

 

Not so clear to me.

 

The commandments of God are a gift.  When we accept these gifts in gratitude through living them, God blesses us with more gifts. 

Nothing is earned. 

 

Whether you believe that eternal life is contingent upon accepting the gift of the commandments or that it is contingent upon accepting Christ as your personal Savior, eternal life is a reward in either scenario for meeting the required contingency.  A gift upon a gift.

Edited December 8, 2014 by pogi

[theplains]

Hi Gail,

True enough, but I am not sure what I am supposed to glean from this.  Are you suggesting that eternal life is given like this gift with no contingency?

 

Hi Pogi,

 

In your lifetime, did you ever receive a gift that was not earned?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[pogi]

Hi Pogi,

 

In your lifetime, did you ever receive a gift that was not earned?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Indeed I have.  Unlike exaltation, it was not even contingent upon my belief in Jesus.  Like exaltation, it was contingent upon my accepting it however, but I wouldn't say that I "earned" it by any means. 

 

For an example of such a gift, see post 72

 

If you remove contingency, you are left with Calvinistic predestination.  I don't think you or I want anything to do with that.

Edited December 11, 2014 by pogi

[Stargazer]

So let me get this straight.  On the one hand you "cannot earn my way into heaven", but on the other hand, you can't get there without an "earnest effort to keep His commandments"?

 

"Believe" is not a work.  Consider Romans 4:5  "But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."  

 

How could belief be a work? Works are contrasted with belief.

 

I think I explained it fairly clearly, and yet you earnestly fail to get the point.

 

First, though, let me address belief vs works.

 

How can a belief be a work, you ask?  Oh, but it is!  Imagine for a moment that you are a pagan named Junius with no legs, no arms, no tongue, and just about to die of old age.  You have ears, however, and with those ears you hear Paul the Apostle preach of Jesus Christ.  And you believe Paul about Christ -- and a moment later you die.  It definitely required work to believe, for thinking expends energy, just like any labor does, so there's your work, i.e. your act of believing.  And then you're gone!  Of course, you'll need to be baptized by proxy to fulfill all righteousness, but your work of believing is still work, despite the appearance of just lying there like an inert lump.

 

But if you're a young man named Timothy, hale and hearty, and you believe, then what does Paul do for you?  He baptizes you!  He sets you apart as a bishop!  You finally die a martyr at age 80 after decades of faithful service to the Lord.

 

Who gets the most honor in heaven?  Junius or Timothy?  Neither!  They stand equal before the Lord because of the Atonement.  And this is because their labor in obtaining the Grace of Christ was the same, but no matter how long or how short was each of their labors, that labor was still required in order to obtain the gift.

 

And now...

 

 

 

So let me get this straight.  On the one hand you "cannot earn my way into heaven", but on the other hand, you can't get there without an "earnest effort to keep His commandments"?

 

Imagine that you stand at the edge of a precipice 8 miles high (just like the classic Byrd's song).  Imagine further that you want to cross the gap from that precipice to another one you can dimly see in the distance.  But how?  There is no bridge, and you can't climb down the cliff to cross on foot because it's sheer, and the bottom is covered with molten lava without the slightest degree of solid ground you could stand on.  In other words, you can't get there from here.  You're hosed.

 

Suddenly, a helicopter approaches and lands near you.  The pilot is so expert that he landed it close enough that all you have to do to board it is to take a step onto the skid, and hoist yourself into the passenger cabin.  The pilot informs you that he is there to take you to that distant cliff, where he will deposit you.  What do you do now?

 

You have two choices.  You can A) get into the helicopter, or B) stand there and do nothing.  If this were a "Choose your own adventure" book, you would probably choose choice A.

 

Let's take this a little further.  Let's say that the land the precipice is part of is 100 miles across, but you are on the other end of it from the spot where the helicopter will pick you up to take you to the other side.  You have to walk all 100 miles to get there.  It is not easy, for the plateau you're on is arid, with few comforts or opportunities for obtaining food.  But you want to get to the other plateau.  So off you go.  It takes you weeks, and you're tired, hungry and thirsty when you get there.  The helicopter is waiting. 

 

You have two choices.  You can A) get into the helicopter, or B) stand there and do nothing. 

 

What is it, FormerLDS?  A or B?  A?  Great!

 

But you see, it didn't matter whether you were standing right next to the helicopter, or you had to walk a very arduous 100 miles to get to the helicopter, because without the helicopter you had absolutely ZERO chance of making it to that far plateau. 

 

Now, I hope you don't think that it is too disrespectful of me to say that in my little parable Jesus Christ is the Pilot of that helicopter.  The helicopter of course is a representation of His atoning sacrifice.  He gives you the gift of the lift in His helicopter, but you still have to get on board the helicopter to take advantage of it.  But without Christ and His helicopter, you're not going anywhere at all.

 

Just in case you're still missing it, I am telling you that in order to obtain the gift of the helicopter lift, you have to take action to board it, whereas you're telling me that just standing there is sufficient.

 

Have it your way, but I don't think inaction is your ticket to heaven. 

Edited December 11, 2014 by Stargazer