Do You Believe In This Eternal Life?

[Hamba Tuhan]

I have only the beginning of an answer with a few truths that do not really form a bigger picture yet but I trust God enough when I was told there is much more I am missing.

 

I'm glad that you have an answer that works for you.

 

I do too, and it is simply that being a member of the Church and learning to follow its teachings have made me happy beyond expression. Right here, right now. In the midst of all kinds of difficulties, disappointments, and losses. And if it works so well here, imagine how well it'll work once it is 'coupled with eternal glory'!

[The Nehor]

I'm glad that you have an answer that works for you.

 

I do too, and it is simply that being a member of the Church and learning to follow its teachings have made me happy beyond expression. Right here, right now. In the midst of all kinds of difficulties, disappointments, and losses. And if it works so well here, imagine how well it'll work once it is 'coupled with eternal glory'!

I thought about that but the answer did not work for me as mortal shortcomings are temporary. It is perhaps true that only the Gods truly know sorrow.....yet at the same time I am told that all my tears will be mended. I am still trying to grasp what is behind it all.

[Ahab]

I'm glad that you have an answer that works for you.

I do too, and it is simply that being a member of the Church and learning to follow its teachings have made me happy beyond expression. Right here, right now. In the midst of all kinds of difficulties, disappointments, and losses.

But not all the time, right? Are you saying you're always happy, never sad, regardless of what is going on around you? That doesn't sound good or healthy to me. I go through a range of emotions that are influenced by not only my but other's circumstances, and I think I should have a range of emotions rather than one continual emotion that never changes. I believe I should mourn with others who mourn, in certain circumstances, and rejoice with others who rejoice, in certain circumstances. Our Father and our Lord are both passionate people, and compassionate too, rather than people who smile all the time regardless of what is going on.

[Tacenda]

A number of years ago, I came home to receive the unexpected news that my 5-year-old nephew had been killed. At the time I was living/working about 400 km from my hometown, so I waited til the next morning to begin the long, difficult journey to be with my family. Along the way I experienced crazy fluctuations in my emotions. One minute I was filled with mourning and a sense of loss; the next minute would bring a wave of peace and comfort that would fill me from top to toe. As I neared my brother and sister-in-law's house, though, I tried to steel myself so that I could be supportive of them during this difficult time.

I was not expecting what I found when I walked into their home. They, my eldest brother and his wife, and my parents were all gathered around the table working on funeral plans. An incredible peace and sense of purpose permeated the scene. I was invited to join them, and I quickly discovered the immediate source of this peace. My brother and his wife had made the decision, in the midst of their inevitable sadness, to focus their funeral plans on how to comfort and strengthen the man responsible for their son's death, an elderly farmer who lived across the street. Every single decision taken -- speakers, topics, hymns, musical items, seating arrangements, burial plans, etc. -- had to answer a single question: What will bless R--?

They could so easily have chosen to think about themselves and their loss. They could have sought to assuage their own pain. They could have planned a funeral for themselves. Instead, because of what they had learnt from the Restored Gospel, they made a conscious decision to forget themselves and focus their efforts and thoughts outward -- to the man across the street who, they knew, was drowning in his own sorrow, regret, shame, and sense of loss. I know many people will fail to understand how planning and executing the funeral for one's own son can be a happy event, but I was there, and it was. My brother and sister-in-law embraced the gift of agency and, very simply, chose to be happy by choosing to carefully follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The funeral and burial were beautiful. I gave the opening prayer and wept openly with a heart full of gratitude for the goodness of God. The neighbour and his wife had a seat reserved for them with the immediate family, took seats of honour at the burial, and sat with my brother and his wife at the family meal after the burial. Did we all feel the loss? Abosolutely! But the pain of the loss was swallowed up in the joy that came from seeking to be/do good.

And the happiness generated that week lasted. The man who took my nephew's life went from being a mere neighbour (and potential enemy) to being an important part of my brother's family. As the weeks passed, my brother and his wife kept up their commitment to bless him and his wife, to reassure them that no ill will or resentment existed. They were invited round for Sunday lunches, summer barbecues, family nativities on Christmas Eve, etc. As the older couple aged further, my brother and sister-in-law increasingly watched over them, took them to doctor visits, made sure they had food, regularly checked on them, prayed for and with them, etc. They did so until both neighbours passed away recently.

I know firsthand that my brother and his wife still miss their son and look forward to a future reunion. But in the meantime they made a choice to be happy, one based, as all such choices must be, on 'the spirit of our holy religion' and its liberating teachings.

That is what it's all about! What wonderful family you have, so Christlike!!

Recently in a nearby neighborhood, a young girl accidently shot her older sister. Earlier in the day they attended church where the older sister who was shot, had given the talk in Sacrament meeting.

I hope the younger sister was shown the same love that the farmer in your story was shown. Imagine, or one cannot imagine, the pain they are dealing with or had dealt with. If it were me I'm sure I wouldn't be able to live with it..

Edited December 3, 2014 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

Are you saying you're always happy, never sad, regardless of what is going on around you? That doesn't sound good or healthy to me ... Our Father and our Lord are both passionate people, and compassionate too, rather than people who smile all the time regardless of what is going on.

 

I find it interesting that you equate being genuinely happy with being fake.

 

Of course people experience an entire range of emotions, just like Brigham Young said we would -- including fear, confusion, and sorrow. But the fabric on which all those other emotions are embroidered is, or should be for the Saints, the 'joy, and happiness, and consolation' that the Pres Young also spoke of.

[Ahab]

I find it interesting that you equate being genuinely happy with being fake.

Good grief. I didn't say anything like that. I'm just saying that when anyone is truly sad they can't be truly happy at the same moment, because happy and sad are opposites.

Of course people experience an entire range of emotions, just like Brigham Young said we would -- including fear, confusion, and sorrow. But the fabric on which all those other emotions are embroidered is, or should be for the Saints, the 'joy, and happiness, and consolation' that the Pres Young also spoke of.

What the heck did he or you mean by that, though? I don't think he meant a person could or should be experiencing opposite emotions in the very same moment. That would be impossible.

[FormerLDS]

Hello friends,

 

The topic of "Eternal life" always intrigues me.  How can there be so much confusion among LDS Christians regarding something so simple as a free gift, yet, for those willing to see, it's obvious (and the main reason I parted ways with LDS doctrine).  9/10 LDS friends and acquaintances I meet will readily admit they believe they "have" eternal life, which is fine - not telling anyone what they believe - but why do they [seem to] completely disagree with the doctrine of their church on the single most important doctrine?

 

If I were to offer you the "free gift" of a new car IF you are willing to make a monthly "covenant renewal" of $, "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" and otherwise "doing all that you can do", would you still consider that a "free gift"?  Of course you wouldn't.

 

Yet, when it comes to "eternal life", LDS accept a "free gift" which requires a lifetime of work, money - heck EVERYTHING and never think twice about the paradox.

 

The day I chose to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ - alone - was enough for my eternal life, I received that life.  I received Jesus Christ within me and no longer have to hope one day to have that "gift".

[pogi]

Hello friends,

 

The topic of "Eternal life" always intrigues me.  How can there be so much confusion among LDS Christians regarding something so simple as a free gift, yet, for those willing to see, it's obvious (and the main reason I parted ways with LDS doctrine).  9/10 LDS friends and acquaintances I meet will readily admit they believe they "have" eternal life, which is fine - not telling anyone what they believe - but why do they [seem to] completely disagree with the doctrine of their church on the single most important doctrine?

 

If I were to offer you the "free gift" of a new car IF you are willing to make a monthly "covenant renewal" of $, "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" and otherwise "doing all that you can do", would you still consider that a "free gift"?  Of course you wouldn't.

 

Yet, when it comes to "eternal life", LDS accept a "free gift" which requires a lifetime of work, money - heck EVERYTHING and never think twice about the paradox.

 

The day I chose to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ - alone - was enough for my eternal life, I received that life.  I received Jesus Christ within me and no longer have to hope one day to have that "gift".

 

We are first indebted to the Lord for creating us (Mosiah 2:23).  When we obey His commandments, we are not really paying Him back, because He simply blesses us with more (Mosiah 2:24).  "Ye are therefore eternally indebted to Heavenly Father to render to him all that you have and are (Mosiah 2:34).

 

Understanding these scriptures, could you accurately state that we "earn" eternal life, or would it be better described as a gift? 

 

Here is an analogy:  If I gave you a thousand dollars for nothing, then told you that you can spend it however you want, but if you give all of your money to the poor, I will give you a million dollars.  Could you accurately say that you earned the million dollars, or would it be better described as a gift?  The Lord says - I gave to you first, if you give as I have given, I will give you even more. Therefore, eternal life is indeed contingent, but it could not accurately be described as "earned."  It is indeed a gift as we have nothing to offer in and of ourselves.  Everything we give, we got from Him in the first place. 

 

We don't "earn" the grace of God anymore than a petitioning beggar earns his reward.

Edited December 5, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

9/10 LDS friends and acquaintances I meet will readily admit they believe they "have" eternal life, which is fine - not telling anyone what they believe - but why do they [seem to] completely disagree with the doctrine of their church on the single most important doctrine?

 

I call bologna that 9/10 Mormons claim they have eternal life.  The likely question that you asked them is, "have you been saved?"  To which, 9/10 Mormons will likely answer, "yes."   There is a difference.  The LDS believe that we have all been saved from the fall of Adam, but we do not presume to judge eternal life, but relinquish this right to the Father...thank goodness! 





The fact that you make this claim suggests that you don't know the LDS very well and were not likely LDS at one time as you claim. 


 

Edited December 5, 2014 by pogi

[Calm]

not telling anyone what they believe - but why do they [seem to] completely disagree with the doctrine of their church on the single most important doctrine?

 

And yet you immediately do…...

[FormerLDS]

We are first indebted to the Lord for creating us (Mosiah 2:23).  When we obey His commandments, we are not really paying Him back, because He simply blesses us with more (Mosiah 2:24).  "Ye are therefore eternally indebted to Heavenly Father to render to him all that you have and are (Mosiah 2:34).

 

Understanding these scriptures, could you accurately state that we "earn" eternal life, or would it be better described as a gift? 

 

Do you understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward"?

 

A "reward" is a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort or achievement.

 

A "gift" is a thing given willingly to someone without payment.  A present is a gift.

 

Here is an analogy:  If I gave you a thousand dollars for nothing, then told you that you can spend it however you want, but if you give all of your money to the poor, I will give you a million dollars.  Could you accurately say that you earned the million dollars, or would it be better described as a gift?  The Lord says - I gave to you first, if you give as I have given, I will give you even more. Therefore, eternal life is indeed contingent, but it could not accurately be described as "earned."  It is indeed a gift as we have nothing to offer in and of ourselves.  Everything we give, we got from Him in the first place. 

 

LDS theology always changes the "gift" of God into the reward of worthy behavior.

 

Gift: "If I gave you a thousand dollars for nothing"

 

Reward: "give all of your money to the poor, I will give you a million dollars."

 

Consider Romans 4:4-5

 

"4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

 

We don't "earn" the grace of God anymore than a petitioning beggar earns his reward.

 

You said it best - "beggar earns his reward"

 

LDS "eternal life" cannot be obtained during mortality because it is a reward, NOT a gift.

[FormerLDS]

I call bologna that 9/10 Mormons claim they have eternal life.  The likely question that you asked them is, "have you been saved?"  To which, 9/10 Mormons will likely answer, "yes."   There is a difference.  The LDS believe that we have all been saved from the fall of Adam, but we do not presume to judge eternal life, but relinquish this right to the Father...thank goodness! 





The fact that you make this claim suggests that you don't know the LDS very well and were not likely LDS at one time as you claim. 


 

 

Take a look at post 63272 "A simple question for Latter-day Saint friends" 

 

For many years I've asked LDS friends the same question that led me to the truth: "Do you have eternal life?"

 

Results are consistent with 90-95% answering "Yes".

[pogi]

You said it best - "beggar earns his reward"

 

Oh good, then you understand that a charitable giving can be considered both a reward and a gift.  Surely, you don't think the beggar "earned" the reward/gift do you?

 

Reward: "give all of your (my) money to the poor (to me - he who does it unto the least of these...), I will give you a million dollars."

 

So, God gives us a thousand dollars.  If we withold none of it from Him, He will gives us more.  What world would that "reward" not be considered a gift in?

What fool would claim that he "earned" the reward in that scenario?

[Calm]

I think the problem is using money---which in large amounts is generally associated with greed and selfishness---as the analogy.

 

I much prefer this---God gives us great gifts such as family and the love of others as well as the means to care for them, teach them and learn with them and to have fun with them.  If we accept these gifts with our hearts, minds and souls fully and take joy in them, he then adds other gifts we have  gained the ability to appreciate through our use of the gifts he has already given us, the greatest gift being becoming a full part of God's own family to the fullest extent possible, not just in the current limited way we are now.

Edited December 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[pogi]

Take a look at post 63272 "A simple question for Latter-day Saint friends" 

 

For many years I've asked LDS friends the same question that led me to the truth: "Do you have eternal life?"

 

Results are consistent with 90-95% answering "Yes".

 

I would not give any weight to your poll.

 

Now if you posted a poll defining what YOU mean by "eternal life" than you would get a more accurate idea of what LDS believe.  For example, here was my response to your poll:

 

It looks like you are a former LDS.  Are you asking because you don't know our theology?  Because this is sounding very much like an evangelical question from one unfamiliar with LDS theology.  If by eternal life you mean "immortality", then yes I have immortality.  If by eternal life you mean "saved", then yes I have been saved from the fall through Christ...  If by eternal life you mean "exaltation", it is still premature.  I believe in a final judgment and don't presume authority over my judge, so I can't say as of yet.

 

If you were to post a poll asking if LDS agree or disagree with my statement, you would probably get close to 100% agreement.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Do you understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward"?

 

A "reward" is a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort or achievement.

 

A "gift" is a thing given willingly to someone without payment.  A present is a gift.

 

 

LDS theology always changes the "gift" of God into the reward of worthy behavior.

 

Gift: "If I gave you a thousand dollars for nothing"

 

Reward: "give all of your money to the poor, I will give you a million dollars."

 

Consider Romans 4:4-5

 

"4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

 

 

You said it best - "beggar earns his reward"

 

LDS "eternal life" cannot be obtained during mortality because it is a reward, NOT a gift.

Ill play, what must one do to get this gift?

[FormerLDS]

Ill play, what must one do to get this gift?

 

Allow eternal life to be a gift you can have the moment you choose to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ is enough.

 

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

[FormerLDS]

I would not give any weight to your poll.

 

Now if you posted a poll defining what YOU mean by "eternal life" than you would get a more accurate idea of what LDS believe.  For example, here was my response to your poll:

 

 

If you were to post a poll asking if LDS agree or disagree with my statement, you would probably get close to 100% agreement.

 

Those who have the Son HAVE eternal life.  Those who do not HAVE eternal life do not the Son. 

 

1 John 5:11 says "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

[pogi]

Allow eternal life to be a gift you can have the moment you choose to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ is enough.

 

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

Do I smell a contingency?

[FormerLDS]

I think the problem is using money---which in large amounts is generally associated with greed and selfishness---as the analogy.

 

I much prefer this---God gives us great gifts such as family and the love of others as well as the means to care for them, teach them and learn with them and to have fun with them.  If we accept these gifts with our hearts, minds and souls fully and take joy in them, he then adds other gifts we have  gained the ability to appreciate through our use of the gifts he has already given us, the greatest gift being becoming a full part of God's own family to the fullest extent possible, not just in the current limited way we are now.

 

For me, it was too much of a stretch to claim I was "fully accepting a gift", knowing all the while there was an "after all that we can do" clause attached...

 

For LDS, "eternal life" comes through strict obedience to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

 

Friends, how can that be a gift?

 

Some "gift".  

[pogi]

Those who have the Son HAVE eternal life.  Those who do not HAVE eternal life do not the Son. 

 

1 John 5:11 says "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

 

I don't know what that has to do with the validity of your poll.

 

You do understand that there are a miriad of interpretations to scripture right?  For example, search for the word "reward" in scripture and see what comes up.  All of these "rewards" mentioned, are they not gifts?

 

Matt 16:27

Matt 6:1-4

Matt 5:12

 

That is just Matthew, there are 71 references to "reward" in the OT and 36 in the NT.  We will never agree on interpretation of scripture, because that is dictated by belief.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

For me, it was too much of a stretch to claim I was "fully accepting a gift", knowing all the while there was an "after all that we can do" clause attached...

 

For LDS, "eternal life" comes through strict obedience to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

 

Friends, how can that be a gift?

 

Some "gift".  

It is a gift because there is nothing you can do to merrit it. There are things required to do to obtain the gift.

 

If I tell you that I am going to give you a nice 20 room house fully furnished as a gift and all you have to do is shovel my drive way and remove the snow to recive a nice big house, did you really earn that house? Or is that house a still not a gift that required some action to receive it?

 

Just because you do something for a gift does not mean it is not a gift. You get to hung up on what gift means and you put it in a box that the scriptures never demand. That is what I take issue with.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Allow eternal life to be a gift you can have the moment you choose to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ is enough.

 

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So you have to mentally do something to get this gift?

[FormerLDS]

Do I smell a contingency?

 

Isn't that the beauty of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

 

No contingencies.  No divine PSs.  No additional items needed.

 

If you are willing to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ alone is enough for eternal life.

[pogi]

For me, it was too much of a stretch to claim I was "fully accepting a gift", knowing all the while there was an "after all that we can do" clause attached...

 

For LDS, "eternal life" comes through strict obedience to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

 

Friends, how can that be a gift?

 

Some "gift".  

 

Unlike some, I consider the commandments to be a gift.  Some gift indeed!