Do You Believe In This Eternal Life?

[pogi]

can a wrong understanding hold up when you hold it to the full counsel of the scripture? 

 

Which on of the 41,000 Christian denominations that accept the WHOLE bible but interpret it differently would you like me to get the answer to your question from? 

[intra]

Which on of the 41,000 Christian denominations that accept the WHOLE bible but interpret it differently would you like me to get the answer to your question from? 

why will you seek to give me another answer of men? 

do you not have the Spirit of God to instruct you, that you should direct me to follow after vanities instead? 

[Calm]

May I suggest then you go to mormon.org and request a set of missionaries to be sent to your home if you are ready to receive the Spirit.

Edited December 21, 2014 by calmoriah

[pogi]

why will you seek to give me another answer of men? 

do you not have the Spirit of God to instruct you, that you should direct me to follow after vanities instead? 

 

Is your answer not of a man?  Were you not taught about the proper understanding of the bible from your specific denomination?  Did you not go to seminary or some other Sunday school training being taught of men?  Why are those men authorized more than any other man, is your one denomination out of 41,000 the only denomination that holds the spirit of God for the edification from scripture?

Edited December 21, 2014 by pogi

[intra]

Is your answer not of a man?  Were you not taught about the proper understanding of the bible from your specific denomination?  Did you not go to seminary or some other Sunday school training being taught of men?  Why are those men authorized more than any other man, is your one denomination out of 41,000 the only denomination that holds the spirit of God for the edification from scripture?

nope, nope, nope and nope. 

and i have not a 'denomination' -- but Christ, and Him crucified and risen. 

[pogi]

nope, nope, nope and nope. 

and i have not a 'denomination' -- but Christ, and Him crucified and risen. 

 

No preacher?  No congregation who all profess the same interpretation as you?  You all independently understand the scripture the exact same with no teacher?  No radio or TV host that you take notes from?  Or are you a lone ranger who is the only one on earth who interprets the bible correctly? 

[Stargazer]

on the other hand what can you say when you have someone who can't justify what they say by scripture, and won't respond to scripture that's presented to them? it's their 'testimony' and the Word of God notwithstanding.

What do you do when you provide scripture and your interlocutor responds with other scripture that supposedly contradicts what you've just tried to justify via scripture? This entire thread consists of this kind of back-and-forth. And what is the result? Nobody is convinced, unless they remain convinced of their own position.

Jesus did not rebuke the devil when He was tempted of Him with human arguments, but with scripture.

Of the three temptations, the devil tempted him one time using scripture.

"If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." Matt. 4:6

Now, the devil's use of the passage in question was a misuse of the passage. Just the fact that someone is using scripture to support their position does not make their position correct. I've tried presenting scripture, and the response I get is deft exegesis (or eisigesis) to show that it doesn't really mean what it seems to mean if one only examines the words. As if saying "I love you" were too vague and requires interpretation.

why do we have scripture if it's not profitable for instruction? may God correct me with His staff, and not let me fall into the hands of men.

Of course it is profitable for instruction! Is it equally profitable to duel with interpretations? I get a lot of valuable information from the scriptures, but I get virtually no information from arguments presenting personalized views of how those scriptures are supposed to be understood. Now, I do understand that the New Testament, for example, was originally written in Koine Greek and Aramaic, and there were at least two cultures behind the words. Thus of course a translation might not completely show all that was meant. But are you interpreting with the Greek or Aramaic in mind? Or are you interpreting with the English in mind, and 20th century culture. When Paul says that women must keep silent in the Churches, are you going to understand this through the culture of Paul (Saul the Pharisee) and the culture of those to whom he wrote the passage, and then proclaim that women in today's churches must not preach? Or must not teach? I know of one Christian denomination that does hold to this. Are they wrong?

Now, let me tell you the kind of argument I expect, sometimes, when dueling with interpretations. You quote 2 Timothy 3:16:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What I expect to hear in doctrine, reproof, correction or instruction is that one quote a scripture to reprove an adulterer for his or her sin, or to correct someone who proclaims that the resurrection is not real, or to instruct someone that Jesus's Atonement causes the forgiveness of sins for those who are His disciples.

What I see a lot of, however, is interpretations that don't really correspond with the plain language of the scriptures.

For example, I know of a Christian sect that says Christmas trees are forbidden by the Bible (Jeremiah 10:2-4). Another example: I had a co-worker who was told by his fellow Christians in the office that he needed to remove the "No Fear" logo from his new truck because it violated the scripture encouraging us to "fear God"!

In short, I have seen too much twisting of scripture in aid of "proving" odd viewpoints. And not enough for instructing, reproving, and uplifting.

i would rather be confounded with one sound word from the book than a thousand human opinions.

And yet human opinions are constantly being inserted.

I say that James says that works are essential, and it is pretty darned clear; and another will say that even a hint of works is evil. And we will trot out scriptures to support our positions. Whose opinion is valid in this case?

The devil himself relied upon scriptural arguments when tempting Jesus.

I have said it in this thread a bit earlier, that there are 10,000 denominations in Christendom. Some of them are convinced that some of the other Christians are going to burn in hell, and this is based upon what they believe is a their faulty understanding of scripture. A prime example of this is Evangelical Christians and Catholics. Another is Evangelical Christians and Mormons. Although we don't happen to believe you're going to burn in hell. So when you come to me and want me to duel scriptures with you, I really don't see the point.

For example, consider 1 Cor. 15:29:

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

What do the various branches of "orthodox" Christianity say about this verse?

You can see a great collection of commentaries on this single verse of scripture here: http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-29.htm - and make sure you click on the Additional Commentaries link.

This is my impression of all these commentaries. They are all "profiting" from the same scripture in the same way that medieval theologians profited from arguing over how many angels could stand on the head of a pin.

Every single one of these commentators wriggle like a worm on a hook, every single one of them arcing his back, squirming in urgent effort to avoid the plain meaning the words, which is that there was a doctrinal practice in the early church that the later church abandoned once the Apostles who had taught it were taken from them by death. You can argue all you want, as some of these commentators do, that Paul was using a false practice to argue against another false doctrine, namely that there is no resurrection. But that is an argument from desperation.

Scripture is not written in a secret code. It has plain meanings.

[Ahab]

The simple truth of the matter is that we all do some kind of work and yet no matter how much or what kind of work we do our works are not what save us.

I hope that's clear enough for everyone to understand.

Even if you work really hard and do the most and the best kind of work you can do, your works can not and will not save you.

Now, with that said, I suggest you do all you can do, if anything, to be saved.

[Anakin7]

       Salvation is Absolutly Free - But It will Cost us our very Lives.

 

       In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                    Anakin7

[Stargazer]

 

The question is how are we justified and made righteous before God? Are we justified by our works or faith in what Jesus has done for us?

Paul puts it like this:

Romans 5 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

 

I don't see anything here that contradicts anything I believe.

 

We cannot save ourselves.  Period.  End of conversation.  Only Christ's Atonement can save us.  And only if we accept His sacrifice.  I sure you agree with this.

 

The place where we are talking at cross purposes is in the matter of enduring to the end and in following Christ's commandment to love and serve our fellow man.  You regard this as icing on the cake, and that the cake itself is alone sufficient.  I am arguing that it may be icing, but that the cake is not complete until iced.

 

I happen to believe that if have accepted Christ as our Savior, we are not done, and that we must keep the commandments he gave to us.  And we must keep them until the end of our life.

 

Your position on this issue seems to argue that after we are saved we cannot lose that salvation, no matter what.  Mine is that yes, after we are saved we can lose it.