The Recent Change In My View Of Homosexual Marriage

[Daniel2]

When it comes to civic laws regarding civil marriage for any couples (religious, non-religious, same-race, inter-racial, opposite-sex, or same-sex), I wish more Latter-day Saints adheared to their Standard Works...

We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Daniel2

[Daniel2]

One item for consideration, TOm. While sex between two men is basically universally repugnant to straight males, there are a surprising number of men with SSA who participate in mixed gender marriages and are quite successful in them.

CFR.

[Rob Osborn]

Homosexuality is an abomination and no amount of political correctness will change that.

[poptart]

Homosexuality is an abomination and no amount of political correctness will change that.

Teeehee, sounds like someone's in the closet.  Come on out hon, we don't bite~

We have cookies too.

[Calm]

I think poptart is a guy.

Not LDS either:

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64475-serious-question/

[poptart]

Not LDS either:

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64475-serious-question/

The bishop and work counselor are working on it, slowly but surely. 

[Rivers]

Homosexuality is an abomination and no amount of political correctness will change that.

Elder Oaks was right on the money when he said this:

What other priorities are being “served” ahead of God by persons—even religious persons—in our day? Consider these possibilities, all common in our world:

• •

  Cultural and family traditions

• •

  Political correctness

• •

  Career aspirations

• •

  Material possessions

• •

  Recreational pursuits

• •

  Power, prominence, and prestige

 

 

[CV75]

When it comes to civic laws regarding civil marriage ...

I think it more accurate to say that you wish more LDS would vote as you do, and that you use scripture and a charge of hypocrisy to justify your point (it that an example of polemics?).

[TOmNossor]

California Boy and everyone.

Before I try to post in response to the bulk of what you wrote let me get a few things out of the way.

Thank you for the considered and even handed response (and responses).  I too hope that this thread can stay "above the fray."

On Sex...  It is precisely the recognition that I swim in a sexualized culture that led to my change of position on SSM.  A fish does not know what it is like to have a glass of water.  There are pro-SSM and anti-SSM arguments and before my attempt to step outside of my sexualized culture I thought there was a balance to the question that didn't allow me to make a reasoned decision AND certainly left me devoid of passion on either side.

On "All You Need is Love."  I watched the whole thing and it was very hard for me.  I regularly attend the LGBT events at my engineering firm and had seen similar presentations.  I have put myself in the position Ashley is trying to tell "rows" to put ourselves in.  I have invited heterosexual folks to believe they were suddenly in Bizarro World and all the sudden their normal urges were foreign to the culture.  I have asked myself what I would do where I to find myself in BIzarro World (the response to my pondering of this issue is the reason I called it "somewhat difficult" as contrasted with "horribly difficult").  Nothing about imagining I was Ashley in the video who likes boys was very new to me. 

It was "very hard for me" for two reasons.  First, I am greatly saddened that our SSA brothers and sisters are ever exposed to such things.  Second, there are groups of homosexuals who think I am like the people in the video who did such horrible things to Ashley.  I hesitate to comment on these issues because I would rather be silent than be wrong like those folks are wrong.

To those who may have never done the experiment I have done, I invite you to watch the video, uncomfortable in whatever way it might be.

Charity, TOm

Edited November 17, 2014 by TOmNossor

[TOmNossor]

California Boy,

I do not know how to write this post without expressing some of what it is to be me.

I have internet sympathy for you and your desire to be connected like heterosexual couples are connected.  I will point out that it is you who sexualize this connection when you suggest to be celibate is to be alone and unconnected, but I want to offer you a glimpse into my world for a minute.  Your "connection argument" was hard for me to hear and ponder and here is why.

 

I post on the internet because it lacks the connections that are hard for me.

I escape intellectually because the lack of emotion in a good argument is very safe.

I am sure I am an engineer because of this too.

When my father died, I was sad, but not broken up.  About half of the emotion I experienced was a sense/knowledge that there was something different about me that allowed me to say goodbye and just move on (and not all of it is my Christian knowledge that he is released from his pain).

Don't feel too bad for me, I can withdraw to here, or a book, or ... and feel just fine.  Instead feel bad (and say a prayer for) my wife, my son and daughter, my friends, ....  Often times they do not understand why I can put them down (figuratively in that I leave my connection to them - not insult them) and even run from connection to them.

There is a name professionals have applied to the way I interact with the world and you have heard it, Asperger syndrome.  From my experience with others, I am not very severe; but I have much in common with those who suffer much more from this (and it is an Autism spectrum disorder so those typically diagnosed as autistic have much more difficulties).

 

So, why do I mention this to you?  Your argument for SSM was that SSA people have a natural affinity to form homosexual unions and that this natural affinity will leave them "disconnected" if they do not act upon it.  You suggested that "connection" is a natural and appropriate need (it was your focus on this that brought this line of thinking clearly to my mind BTW).  Of course you are not actually correct in saying that folks with SSA cannot have connections without SSM and homosexual sex.  You can connect with those of the same and opposite sex in many ways better than I can.  You MIGHT even find yourself less uncomfortable in these connections (without homosexual sex) than I find myself in real life (as opposed to on the Internet).  And you most likely would find yourself less uncomfortable in these connections than do folks with well-defined Asperger syndrome.  And you most likely would find yourself less uncomfortable than folks with other types of social anxiety.

 

So, if you were a professional councilor, you would tell me to focus on feeling emotions.  Connect with people in real life.  "Be present" for my family.  You would prescribe a total withdrawal from the Internet and "blogs," at least for a period of time.  You would be concerned that I so wanted to return to posting on the internet. ....  That is what you would do if you were a trained therapist.

 

However, the parallel recommendation that I get when I apply the thinking in your post to my situation is...  TOm, you didn't choose to interact with the world differently than others do.  You should seek the degree of connection you are comfortable with and not step outside your comfort zone.  Withdraw further from your family if and when you need to.  Interact with numbers at work and avoid meetings or teams or ....  Interact with people over ideas and debates and especially on the Internet.  In short, if it feels good do it and you were born this way!

 

I am so incredibly happy that I am married and have two wonderful children.  I am so incredibly happy that I can connect with them even in the sometimes awkward way I do and even though it is sometimes harder than for "normal" people (and even though I sometimes escape).  I will be trying to "miss" my dad over the course of the next month more than I did 10 months ago when he died even though that sounds painful.  I believe it is part of feeling and connecting and I SHOULD do it that my life might be richer.

 

It seems that 95% of the folks who care about and treat those with Asperger's or social anxiety or ??? guide them to step outside their comfort zone and into connected-ness they are not comfortable with.  I have never heard anyone say, just withdraw father and be comfortable in your disconnection.  Why is SSA so RADICALLY different?  Why is it that folks with various connection disorders are told to stretch into their uncomfortable zone AND folks with SSA are told that they are perfect and needn't stretch into their uncomfortable zone.  I submit that it is because our society is so sex-soaked that to tell the homosexual that his method of connecting is problematic is to condemn the use and practice of sex in most of the ways it is regularly used/practiced.  To tell me that my way of connecting or desire to stay somewhat distant and protected is wrong does not touch upon any societal sacred cows (thank God for me as I am better for being uncomfortable). 

 

I do not believe we live in the Garden of Eden.  We come into this world with genetic, spiritual, and future nurtured problems.  What "feels right" is not always what is right.  So, to your impassioned plea that I should embrace SSM because it allows you to achieve connectedness in a way that would be very difficult for you without homosexual sex, I say I FEEL you!  I have all the compassion and empathy I can muster as TOm and over the internet.  But, I do not believe the analytical weight of your argument is sufficient to change what I am advocating here. 

 

My sins are legion!  Your sins seem like they will be different than mine.  If I meet you one day and you introduce your husband, I will love you (as TOm) just like others I know (and the uncomfortableness that I have around you will be quite similar to the uncomfortableness I have around many folks much of the time, so I will treat you with a degree of equality that you sometimes don't receive from some heterosexual folks).  If you never ask me if I think your sexual relationship is "sin," I may never tell you, because you are an individual who I am called to love (better than TOm usually can).  But, at this point, I believe that the reasoned position, the one I would share with you if you choose to ask, is that your homosexual sex is sin.  God love us sinners!!!

Charity, TOm 

Edited November 17, 2014 by TOmNossor

[USU78]

CFR.

 

californiaboy, according to his own reports, for one, until he wasn't.

[thesometimesaint]

My ideas about SSM haven't really changed. I see no legal reasoning why it should remain or be made illegal. I still consider it a sin. Personally I want to get government out of the marriage(a religious rite) altogether. Make them all legally enforceable civil contracts.

[TOmNossor]

One item for consideration, TOm. While sex between two men is basically universally repugnant to straight males, there are a surprising number of men with SSA who participate in mixed gender marriages and are quite successful in them.

 

I agree with your comment that well functioning mixed gender marriages provide a complementary strength that cannot be duplicated in SSM. 

I am unsure if Daniel is calling for references in that he doesn't believe that there are SSA folks having successful marriages to the opposite sex?

OR

If Daniel is calling for reference in that he doesn't believe that heterosexual males find homosexual sex repugnant.

OR

Maybe he is hinting at the fact that he finds heterosexual sex repugnant.

 

I think there are people on both sides of all three of these statements. 

 

Nobody should be teased or bullied into depression, but I lean toward the idea that societies reaction to homosexuality is not the only genesis of difficulty experienced by those with SSA. 

Charity, TOm

[USU78]

Teeehee, sounds like someone's in the closet.  Come on out hon, we don't bite~

We have cookies too.

 

You owe him an apology.

 

This is a cheap strategy:  accuse whoever disagrees with you of being closeted.  A disgusting practice.  Knock it off.

[Rob Osborn]

My ideas about SSM haven't really changed. I see no legal reasoning why it should remain or be made illegal. I still consider it a sin. Personally I want to get government out of the marriage(a religious rite) altogether. Make them all legally enforceable civil contracts.

I agree that marriage is a religious rite and government should get out of the marriage business altogether.

[pogi]

These sterotypes are incredibly insulting.  

 

Pft I was joking.  I'm technically bi but yeah, pretty much date just men and yeah, I like fuchsia aprons and painting my nails with a cute guy.  In my case, the stereotypes are true.

Also, multiple wives and no cute guys, eewwwwww

 

If I would have said that, joking or not, I would have been hung for it...but since your gay (or bi) it's ok?  Explain that one to me.

[poptart]

If I would have said that, joking or not, I would have been hung for it...but since your gay (or bi) it's ok?  Explain that one to me.

Whelp, I'm tolorant to a degree, where I draw the line is when I get a real homophobe being super mean, calling me awful things, thinking I should have no rights, and my personal favorite, using religion as way to gain support against me.  I'm not a fan of some of the things my evangelical housemates believe in, but I keep my mouth shut and visa versa. 

Also, joke about me wearing aprons and painting my nails all you like, I fit the stereotype in that regard lol. 

[pogi]

Also, joke about me wearing aprons and painting my nails all you like, I fit the stereotype in that regard lol. 

The funny thing is that some if not most gay people get pissed at straights for perpetuating that stereotype (even if they are joking), but I think their fellow gay friends are the worst offenders.  It's kinda like how some black people get pissed at white people for using the 'N' word, then call their best friends 'N's' all the time.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Edited November 17, 2014 by pogi

[Rob Osborn]

The funny thing is that some if not most gay people get pissed at straights for perpetuating that stereotype (even if they are joking), but I think their fellow gay friends are the worst offenders.  It's kinda like how some black people get pissed at white people for using the 'N' word, then call their best friends 'N's' all the time.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

There is a lot of politically incorrect things. Things like having gay pride parades to celebrate being gay but yet you would be crucified for having a hetero all straight parade.

[poptart]

The funny thing is that some if not most gay people get pissed at straights for perpetuating that stereotype (even if they are joking), but I think their fellow gay friends are the worst offenders.  It's kinda like how some black people get pissed at white people for using the 'N' word, then call their best friends 'N's' all the time.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Yep, can vouch for that one, its true, totally true.  I can't speak for everyone else, but I do try to have a sense of humor.  In real life i'm just a normal guy, but we have a phrase for the really obnoxious ones, queens.  Yeah, I hate them too.  They make us all look bad.  Oh, not sure you are on stand up comedy, but Chris Rock had a skit on black people vs. "N".  Highly reccomend you watch it, its exactly how I feel about queens. 

 

There is a lot of politically incorrect things. Things like having gay pride parades to celebrate being gay but yet you would be crucified for having a hetero all straight parade.

See above.  Also I would love to see an all straight parade in someplace like berkley just to see them get mad.  Most of those spoiled brats have had lifes of privelage and have no idea what real suffering is, not to mention making people like me look bad. 

Edited November 17, 2014 by poptart

[pogi]

There is a lot of politically incorrect things. Things like having gay pride parades to celebrate being gay but yet you would be crucified for having a hetero all straight parade.

 

Even better...a white masculine pride parade.

[Scott Lloyd]

Even better...a white masculine pride parade.

Or to use an appellation that has become popular on the political left, an "angry, old, white males" parade.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[jwhitlock]

I am unsure if Daniel is calling for references in that he doesn't believe that there are SSA folks having successful marriages to the opposite sex?

OR

If Daniel is calling for reference in that he doesn't believe that heterosexual males find homosexual sex repugnant.

OR

Maybe he is hinting at the fact that he finds heterosexual sex repugnant.

 

I think there are people on both sides of all three of these statements. 

 

Nobody should be teased or bullied into depression, but I lean toward the idea that societies reaction to homosexuality is not the only genesis of difficulty experienced by those with SSA. 

Charity, TOm

 

Actually, I've been surprised at those who have taken issue with what I assumed was something very obvious.

 

A man is only straight if he doesn't engage in sex with other men. Once he does so - and it doesn't matter whether it's due to genetic or societal or environmental conditions - he is bi- or homosexual. That's by definition, if you look up the various terms. So sex with other men is very universally repugnant to straight males - until they cease to be straight males.

 

The interesting point that was brought up in connection with this is that homosexuality can be an acquired trait, according to Hamba's historical accounts. The general breakdown of moral strictures in society apparently leads to an increase in acquired homosexuality.

[USU78]

Actually, I've been surprised at those who have taken issue with what I assumed was something very obvious.

 

A man is only straight if he doesn't engage in sex with other men. Once he does so - and it doesn't matter whether it's due to genetic or societal or environmental conditions - he is bi- or homosexual. That's by definition, if you look up the various terms. So sex with other men is very universally repugnant to straight males - until they cease to be straight males.

 

The interesting point that was brought up in connection with this is that homosexuality can be an acquired trait, according to Hamba's historical accounts. The general breakdown of moral strictures in society apparently leads to an increase in acquired homosexuality.

 

An awfully simple-minded taxonomy, that.

[3DOP]

Hi Tom. I have tried to "cut and paste" what I would like to talk about, but I do not understand the technical aspects of how to quote you.

 

What I wanted to talk about has to do with what you refer to as "purpose". It seems like you are suggesting that procreation is the primary purpose of sexual encounters? You ought to know that I am not opposed to this view. Do I understand you correctly?

 

It seems to me that if we assume that the state should refrain from exercising any authority over the definition of marriage, it would not matter what is the revealed purpose of sex, UNLESS you are suggesting that this truth about the primary purpose transcends religion, and is a legitimate natural truth that should be recognized by the state. Only If the primary purpose of sex is a truth that exists outside of religious claims, would it seem that your fellow Mormons could agree. As one who believe in an intimate connection between church and state, it works for me. SSM is out. I am not sure it works for Mormons who don't think the state can recognize religious truth. It seems like this has to be a non-religious truth if Mormons can accept it as something that should be legislated by the state.

 

Sorry I could not "cut and paste". I am such a dolt. Sorry to hear about your dad. I lost mine around five years ago. I was surprised at how broken up I was. Go figure. I don't know if there is a right and a wrong way. God made us all with different temperaments and ways of dealing with stress and tension and loss. Who says you have what must be considered a "disorder"? All of us have strengths and weaknesses according to the gifts and deficiencies of nature we receive or don't get. A touch feely generation is likely to define you as the one with a problem. But a different culture admires the "stiff upper lip". Nobody has it all.

 

It seems like every ball player, maybe I should say "bawl player", starts crying when he retires now. I don't like it. But I am older. Neither Joe DiMaggio nor Ted Williams did that. Now they do. Our culture has changed rapidly. Different cultures ask for different things from its members. I don't know what they say Asperger's is. My wife has seen my cry many times. I don't think I have ever seen her cry and she has lost both parents since we have been married. She is fine. She loves me. I love her. It wasn't the cry baby (me), but my wife, who visited everybody's graves for All Souls Day. Different temperaments. I don't need her to cry if I die first. I need her prayers and I know I'll have them. God makes us all different. If you have a truly problematic medical condition, fine. Seek medical aid. I believe in medicine.  But don't let anybody talk you into a universal appropriate response to death. As a Catholic, I believe in a primary and subsequent purpose for sex. I don't believe we all are supposed to react the same way to traumatic stimuli.  

 

Rory

Edited November 18, 2014 by 3DOP