Euthanasia

[MormonFreeThinker]

First of all, I don't believe in euthanasia.  I believe in physician assisted suicide.  There is a difference.  Second, pain is not enough to qualify one for a lethal prescription.  I am not an advocate for suicide in general for any reason.  To receive the prescription you have to have an end-stage terminal diagnosis with a prognosis of 6 months left to live, you have to be at least 18 and mentally competent (no dementia, depression etc.) and able to self-administer the prescription. 

 

Cluster headaches are also called suicide headaches because the pain is too extreme, it is worst than Cancer and childbirth pain.  

Why should a terminally ill patient have the right for assisted suicide, but not a person that suffers from Cluster  Headaches? 

If pain is not enough to qualify, why would assisted suicides be necessary? Why do they do it? 

Edited November 5, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Cluster headaches are also called suicide headaches, because the pain is too extreme, it is worst than Cancer and childbirth pain.  

Why should a terminally ill patient have the right for assisted suicide, but not a person that suffers from Cluster  Headaches? 

Because by definition a terminally ill person is at death's door anyway and a person with Cluster Headaches is not.

[pogi]

Cluster headaches are also called suicide headaches because the pain is too extreme, it is worst than Cancer and childbirth pain.  

 

But can be managed and do go away.  They are not a terminal diagnosis. 

 

Why should a terminally ill patient have the right for assisted suicide, but not a person that suffers from Cluster  Headaches?  

 

 

Again, because they can be managed and do go away, and are not a terminal diagnosis.

 

If pain is not enough to qualify, why would assisted suicides be necessary? Why do they do it? 

 

 

First of all, they are not necessary.  Second, It would help if you read the thread. 

[carbon dioxide]

I also advocate for the use of the pain meds that you are on, perhaps we should outlaw them so that you can experience the trials that life is all about - you know, so you can get a good dose of Frankl.  Simply because I advocate for the rights of others to choose for themselves, doesn't mean that I will choose or encourage it for anyone.  I also advocate for the legal choice of others to drink alcohol, and even marijuana that I don't believe in using myself.  What a jack Mormon, I know!

 

Just to clarify, you advocate for a person to be sedated out of their pain and misery to the point of unconsciousness for the remaining weeks to months of their life so that they can fill the measure of their creation, learn something, give something, or overcome something?  You want them to "rage, rage against the dying of the night" and "burn and rave" with a morphine pump hooked up and their eyes rolled back in their head?  

I wonder what those who are advanced stages of Alzhiemer's disease are learning? Since whatever they learn is soon forgotten.

[mfbukowski]

I also advocate for the use of the pain meds that you are on, perhaps we should outlaw them so that you can experience the trials that life is all about - you know, so you can get a good dose of Frankl.  Simply because I advocate for the rights of others to choose for themselves, doesn't mean that I will choose or encourage it for anyone.  I also advocate for the legal choice of others to drink alcohol, and even marijuana that I don't believe in using myself.  What a jack Mormon, I know!

 

Just to clarify, you advocate for a person to be sedated out of their pain and misery to the point of unconsciousness for the remaining weeks to months of their life so that they can fill the measure of their creation, learn something, give something, or overcome something?  You want them to "rage, rage against the dying of the night" and "burn and rave" with a morphine pump hooked up and their eyes rolled back in their head?

My my.

Well you certainly have the "rage, rage" part right.

[Tacenda]

Last night I watched Meryl Comer on CNN a former reporter presenting her book "Dancing with a Stranger: Lost and Found in the Age of Alzheimer's". Her husband got early onset Alzheimer's, she quit work and took care of him for over 12 years. Bathed, changed, fed.. you name it.

She mentioned the high cost of care and back then most places wouldn't take men or they would need to be restrained and she couldn't bear that so he lived at home with her being the main caregiver. Giving up her sleep and everything else. And she apparently had her teeth knocked out by him during a violent spell. Which is common for some, they do things they'd never even think of doing before.

Some things she said made me wonder if she thought he should have had a right to die. She mentioned how with Alzheimer's patients they aren't able to choose their care, unlike those with terminal cancer etc. There's a big difference!

I know my Mom wouldn't have wanted the last 10 yrs. or so of her life like that, but she had no choice. And each time I'd visit you could tell she was so uncomfortable, and when I'd leave I was so worried that anyone could harm her and she'd be unable to stop them. Or the young CNA's, wonderful as they can be, might not know enough and may be careless enough that Mom could be in danger.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

I wonder what those who are advanced stages of Alzhiemer's disease are learning? Since whatever they learn is soon forgotten.

John 14:6

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

[emarkp]

Alzheimer victims have to deal with it like my grandma dealt with it. We can't end our own lives. Only God knows when the time is right, otherwise you're killing a person. Unfortunately I feel we have to deal with the suffering if we want relief in the spirit world.

 

My mother has nearly totally disappeared into Alzheimer's.  She's combative and hard to work with sometimes.  My father is really not equipped to deal with this, as he's been poor and limited in cognition since he left a sizeable chunk of his brain on the pavement while he was on his mission.

 

I currently cannot reconcile the concept of God as a loving father with what my parents are going through, in my mind he clearly betrayed my father.  I'd rather spit in God's face than worship him at the moment.  And if I'm diagnosed with Alzheimer's, I will not allow my wife and children to deal with it.  While I'm lucid I will end myself.  A pill would at least leave me easier to cleanup than a bullet would.

 

But then I'm sure you'll be happy to tell me what I should do with my life?

[Tacenda]

My mother has nearly totally disappeared into Alzheimer's. She's combative and hard to work with sometimes. My father is really not equipped to deal with this, as he's been poor and limited in cognition since he left a sizeable chunk of his brain on the pavement while he was on his mission.

I currently cannot reconcile the concept of God as a loving father with what my parents are going through, in my mind he clearly betrayed my father. I'd rather spit in God's face than worship him at the moment. And if I'm diagnosed with Alzheimer's, I will not allow my wife and children to deal with it. While I'm lucid I will end myself. A pill would at least leave me easier to cleanup than a bullet would.

But then I'm sure you'll be happy to tell me what I should do with my life?

My Dad was disable and also wasn't able to do it when she got bad, and kept asking for her husband when he was standing right in front of her.

I want that pill also emarkp

Edited November 6, 2014 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

My mother has nearly totally disappeared into Alzheimer's.  She's combative and hard to work with sometimes.  My father is really not equipped to deal with this, as he's been poor and limited in cognition since he left a sizeable chunk of his brain on the pavement while he was on his mission.

 

I currently cannot reconcile the concept of God as a loving father with what my parents are going through, in my mind he clearly betrayed my father.  I'd rather spit in God's face than worship him at the moment.  And if I'm diagnosed with Alzheimer's, I will not allow my wife and children to deal with it.  While I'm lucid I will end myself.  A pill would at least leave me easier to cleanup than a bullet would.

 

But then I'm sure you'll be happy to tell me what I should do with my life?

I think you probably mean that comment for me rather than video.

 

What you do is up to you- I would never presume to tell you what to do- I have already said that IF I felt that way, that;s what I would do.

 

But I don't feel that way, and think it's a terrible decision.  I think it's wrong for LDS people to advocate suicide for others.

 

But if you want to throw away your life and all opportunity to learn more, that's up to you.

[emarkp]

I think you probably mean that comment for me rather than video.

No, I meant who I quoted. You can tell that because of the quote block.

 

What you do is up to you- I would never presume to tell you what to do

Which contradicts with:

But if you want to throw away your life and all opportunity to learn more, that's up to you.

Passive aggressive much?

 

 

But I don't feel that way, and think it's a terrible decision.

For pretty piss poor reasons. And there is something deeply wrong with God that he put this curse on his own children.

[Tacenda]

Only way I deal, is God's pretty hands off. I learned that the hard way when I watched my Mom have a PH blessing that she might beat the disease. I mustered every bit of faith that I thought possible.

[pogi]

What you do is up to you-

 

Getting a lethal prescription in Utah is up to the law and not up to emarkp at present.  If you are truly genuine and want it to be up to emarkup, that would require advocating for personal choice in this matter. 

 

That is the point that I want to make clear.  In a lot of ways, I feel the same as you Mark.  I don't believe in suicide for myself.  However, I believe my patients when they hold my hand and look into my eyes and plead with a loving gentle smile that hardly disguises their suffering to end their misery.  "I wan't to go, I want to go," They sob.  This coming from life-long faithful LDS women who probably would have argued along side you MFB at your age, pre-debility and terminal complications.  You cannot be in that room and hold their hand and not feel the Spirit in you yearn for them to pass.  Their families pray to God to take them.  At this stage of illness and debility and mindset, there is no convincing that can be done that their suffering is actually good for them and that they can learn from it.  To suggest so is not validating, but rejecting and disrespectful of the dying person's experience and wishes, which we can't pretend to comprehend.  I am trained to be my patients advocate, and that's what I do.  I cannot know what they are experiencing perfectly, but I can believe them and be their advocate for personal choice in the end of life.  

 

This is obviously a very sensitive subject for many here and a very personal one for me.  We all need to tread lightly.  I apologize if I have behaved myself unseemly in any way. 

Edited November 6, 2014 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Getting a lethal prescription in Utah is up to the law and not up to emarkp at present.  If you are truly genuine and want it to be up to emarkup, that would require advocating for personal choice in this matter. 

 

That is the point that I want to make clear.  In a lot of ways, I feel the same as you Mark.  I don't believe in suicide for myself.  However, I believe my patients when they hold my hand and look into my eyes and plead with a loving gentle smile that hardly disguises their suffering to end their misery.  "I wan't to go, I want to go," They sob.  This coming from life-long faithful LDS women who probably would have argued with you MFB at your age, pre-debility and terminal complications.  You cannot be in that room and hold their hand and not feel the Spirit in you yearn for them to pass.  Their families pray to God to take them.  At this stage of illness and debility and mindset, there is no convincing that can be done that their suffering is actually good for them and that they can learn from it.  To suggest so is not validating, but rejecting and disrespectful of the dying person's experience and wishes, which we can't pretend to comprehend.  I am trained to be my patients advocate, and that's what I do.  I cannot know what they are experiencing perfectly, but I can believe them and be their advocate for personal choice in the end of life.  

 

This is obviously a very sensitive subject for many here and a very personal one for me.  We all need to tread lightly.  I apologize if I have behaved myself unseemly in any way. 

I also apologize for being too strident in my tone.

 

I see this as perfectly analogous to abortion.  People want the "right to choose" and I think that it is a wrong choice.  I think that it is so wrong that they should not have the choice to abort a fetus.

 

In the cases being discussed here, I don't need lengthy explanations of misery, semi-pornographic pictures, etc- as I have said, been there done that.  My own mother was in a home for 5 years of misery, broken hips, bed sores, surgeries, and not even knowing who I was.  At the end she also wanted to pass- and who would not?  And yes, I walked those halls and saw what I saw for 5 years, the vacant faces, the pleading eyes, the pure misery.

 

But it is wrong.  It is not a choice within the gospel or Mormon doctrine.  Life is precious and to be lived every moment.

 

I am no one's judge.  Should people in misery terminate their lives do I know how God will judge them?  Of course not.  That is between them and their maker.

 

As far as legalization, I am opposed to it.  If one wants to choose to die, it is up to them to accomplish it.  I do not want my taxes to pay for it, OR abortions.  If one is worried about getting a ticket or being prosecuted for committing suicide......   can you see how ludicrous that is?

 

If emarkp wants to do himself in, I don't think he will be concerned about getting a ticket or going to jail for doing so.  If he wants to curse God and die, that is within his power of agency.   Yes, I would care immensely, and want to convince him otherwise, but it is his choice in the end.  That is why I said what I did to him- to possibly make him think a little.  He would be throwing his life away- for what?  Because he was angry?

 

But no, I do not want to pay for his pills, bullets, or wait in traffic on the freeway while he jumps off the bridge, or have him jump into my car and take my family with him.  I do not want to pay a doctor to write a prescription after long interviews etc. 

 

I do not want to participate in that.  Some people do not want to support war with their taxes, I do not want to support immoral behavior by contributing to the government to support it.  Some people think it is immortal to wear leather shoes, I think it is immoral to kill oneself.  Amazing idea, huh?

 

And it is natural to WANT to go in those circumstances.  But it is not something I would do and not something you would do. 

 

Why not?   Because it is wrong.  I guess I am simpleminded.

[pogi]

I see this as perfectly analogous to abortion.  People want the "right to choose" and I think that it is a wrong choice.  I think that it is so wrong that they should not have the choice to abort a fetus.

 

I agree with you about abortion, but It is not a fair analogy for several reasons.  Physician assisted suicide (PAS) is about a personal choice to die, not about making a choice for someone to die who cannot choose for themselves (as in abortion).  The second problem with the analogy is that the fetus is not dying, with PAS, they are.  

 

I think a better analogy is alcohol.  Both alcohol and PAS will shorten your life, probably much more so in the case of alcohol abuse.  The most critical comparison is that alcohol and PAS are both personal choices, not so with abortion.  We don't believe in drinking alcohol either, so your "simplistic" notion that we should legislate against ALL wrong choices is not so absolute or simple, but there are grey areas.  When we choose to legislate for alcohol, we choose to shorten peoples lives, just like in PAS.  The difference is that PAS resolves suffering through death, and alcohol creates it unto death (make no mistake, it is poison in less potent dosages).  You will be paying far more tax dollars to treat cirrhosis and pancreatitis, etc. due to your legalization of alcohol, then you will for PAS (which will overall lower healthcare costs).  I think the analogy is solid, and when you compare the two, alcohol is the greater evil.  It does not heal family suffering, it creates it.  I could go on and on. 

 

I am also not entirely convinced that PAS is evil.  I am not convinced that God does not desire death for some people, and I think he would be happy if we intervened.  Like I have said, I have felt the Spirit yearn within me for a dying patient to pass as real as I have felt it with anything else.  It felt good and right to tell them that if it was in my power, I would help. It was a holy hallowed spirit.  There was no stupor of thought or darkness in it.  No selfish desire.  No evil intention.  But when I thought on it and wished for it, it felt right.  

Edited November 6, 2014 by pogi

[mnn727]

 

 

But if you want to throw away your life and all opportunity to learn more, that's up to you.

Once again, what is an Alzheimers patient learning?

[Tacenda]

Once again, what is an Alzheimers patient learning?

Hello, no one's home. 

[Tacenda]

Hello, no one's home. 

Okay, shouldn't have said the above about an Alzheimer's ability to learn.  My bad, and I'm glad I had my Mom for all those years.  She was aware of someone being with her, she may not have known it was me, but hopefully she was in a state of mind that put her somewhere pleasant. 

[Calm]

We have no way to measure what the spirit is learning in a limited body.

[emarkp]

As far as legalization, I am opposed to it.  If one wants to choose to die, it is up to them to accomplish it.  I do not want my taxes to pay for it, OR abortions.  If one is worried about getting a ticket or being prosecuted for committing suicide......   can you see how ludicrous that is?

Legal != paid for by taxes. And frankly, I don't care whether it's legal or not, with the one exception that it would be nice if someone could avoid leaving a bigger mess than necessary.

 

If emarkp wants to do himself in, I don't think he will be concerned about getting a ticket or going to jail for doing so.

Dude, I'm right here. And you're right about that, with the "cleanup" exception as noted.

 

Yes, I would care immensely, and want to convince him otherwise, but it is his choice in the end.

I don't believe you for a second that you'd care.

 

That is why I said what I did to him- to possibly make him think a little.

You think I haven't thought a little? How arrogant. Check yourself.

 

He would be throwing his life away- for what?  Because he was angry?

Throwing life away with a progressive terminal AGENCY-COMPROMISING illness? Are you deluded? My anger at God has nothing to do with my resolve to prevent my wife from having to wipe my butt if my brain is so broken that God has taken my agency away from me.

 

But no, I do not want to pay for his pills, bullets, or wait in traffic on the freeway while he jumps off the bridge, or have him jump into my car and take my family with him.  I do not want to pay a doctor to write a prescription after long interviews etc.

See, here you contradict yourself. I don't want you to pay a cent either. But I'd like to not paint the wall with my brains, to save on cleanup. Paying myself out-of-pocket for a pill would make for less expense all around. You make that option unavailable, and more people are going to jump off a bridge in front of you, which you say you want to avoid.

 

I do not want to participate in that.  Some people do not want to support war with their taxes, I do not want to support immoral behavior by contributing to the government to support it.

I don't want you to support it either. Just get out of the fracking way and get off your high horse passing judgement.

 

Why not?   Because it is wrong.  I guess I am simpleminded.

Thou hast said it.

[mfbukowski]

I agree with you about abortion, but It is not a fair analogy for several reasons.  Physician assisted suicide (PAS) is about a personal choice to die, not about making a choice for someone to die who cannot choose for themselves (as in abortion).  The second problem with the analogy is that the fetus is not dying, with PAS, they are.  

 

I think a better analogy is alcohol.  Both alcohol and PAS will shorten your life, probably much more so in the case of alcohol abuse.  The most critical comparison is that alcohol and PAS are both personal choices, not so with abortion.  We don't believe in drinking alcohol either, so your "simplistic" notion that we should legislate against ALL wrong choices is not so absolute or simple, but there are grey areas.  When we choose to legislate for alcohol, we choose to shorten peoples lives, just like in PAS.  The difference is that PAS resolves suffering through death, and alcohol creates it unto death (make no mistake, it is poison in less potent dosages).  You will be paying far more tax dollars to treat cirrhosis and pancreatitis, etc. due to your legalization of alcohol, then you will for PAS (which will overall lower healthcare costs).  I think the analogy is solid, and when you compare the two, alcohol is the greater evil.  It does not heal family suffering, it creates it.  I could go on and on. 

 

I am also not entirely convinced that PAS is evil.  I am not convinced that God does not desire death for some people, and I think he would be happy if we intervened.  Like I have said, I have felt the Spirit yearn within me for a dying patient to pass as real as I have felt it with anything else.  It felt good and right to tell them that if it was in my power, I would help. It was a holy hallowed spirit.  There was no stupor of thought or darkness in it.  No selfish desire.  No evil intention.  But when I thought on it and wished for it, it felt right.  

No point in carrying on- we will never agree.

[mfbukowski]

Once again, what is an Alzheimers patient learning?

Once again, I already answered that.  They are learning whatever God wants them to learn.  LDS believe that life goes on after death and all will be brought to our remembrance.  Waking up dead, if I were in that position, I would feel at the very least a sense of triumph in knowing that I did what God wanted me to do and endured to the end and passed the test.

 

What does one learn the last hundred yards of a marathon?  If nothing else, that one can do what they set out to do and never quit.  Can you imagine giving up in that last hundred yards because it was too hard and your feet hurt?

 

If that makes no sense to you, I cannot explain it.

[mfbukowski]

Hello, no one's home. 

Unless you believe in an afterlife, which I presumed most here did.

 

But I guess not.

[MormonFreeThinker]

I don't think a person with Alzheimer disease is learning, but the people around them are learning, they need to take care of them. 

People with Alzheimer disease cannot be baptized, but the people that take care of them can.

Edited November 7, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Tacenda]

Unless you believe in an afterlife, which I presumed most here did.

But I guess not.

I said that to mean that Alzheimer's victims aren't mentally there but far off in another time somewhere.