Euthanasia

[Buzzard]

I haven't been playing the closest attention to this, though like everyone else, saw it a bazillion times on the internet.  I never noted, though I may have missed it, any reference in her statements to God, or to seeking counsel from a religious leader. Assuming she was not religious, I wonder if faith would have made a difference in how she faced what she was facing. 

[Tacenda]

I'm related through marriage to the family that took their own lives in Springville.  They will be in the People magazine I believe.  I wonder if they had not believed in such a glorious after life if that would have gave them pause to take their lives.  Maybe we shouldn't emphasize how beautiful the after life is or how if we knew we'd kill ourselves to get there.  In this way the Atheist have it a little better, where they may not believe they wake up if they die.  And they hold out as long as possible to this world. 

[thesometimesaint]

I haven't been playing the closest attention to this, though like everyone else, saw it a bazillion times on the internet.  I never noted, though I may have missed it, any reference in her statements to God, or to seeking counsel from a religious leader. Assuming she was not religious, I wonder if faith would have made a difference in how she faced what she was facing. 

 

I don't know if she was religious or not. I'm in no position to judge her, but I am sure God takes EVERYTHING into account when he does.

[Buckeye]

I have a question for those who propose that ending one's life on one's own terms cuts short the mortal suffering that God intends us to experience, which suffering arguably serves to bind us together. I sympathize with this view, as my personal ill health has served to create empathy for others that I otherwise would not have gained. But I still have this question:

 

Do you oppose taking medications or other treatments that temper suffering but do not end life? For example, is it morally acceptable to take chicken soup to fight a flu, Advil to fight a headache, go to a chiropractor for back pain, take medical marijuana or oxicotone after a severe car accident, or choose an epidural to alleviate the pain of child birth? If so, why, and what is the moral difference between these actions and the action of ending one's life a few months early in order to avoid pain and suffering?

[ksfisher]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/13/opinion/golden-assisted-suicide/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

 

Some good thoughts in this opinion piece about the dangers of legalizing assisted suicide. 

[mnn727]

Its a very challenging subject. When talking of pets we always say that owners should not make them suffer and its usually a guess when to take them to the vet for a one way trip as they can not tell us when the suffering is too great.

 

However when a human can tell us the suffering is too great, we in most cases do not allow them the option of ending their life and in fact may go above and beyond using machines to keep people alive even when there is little or no hope.

 

I don't have an answer, I doubt I would avail myself of the option but I don't know.

I do know I was involved in pulling the plug on my mothers care, to me it was the right thing to do, it released her from much pain and zero quality of life. While I feel it was the right decision I do however feel we were pushed into it by the hospital and hospice rep perhaps a bit quicker than we should have been.

[Buzzard]

I have a question for those who propose that ending one's life on one's own terms cuts short the mortal suffering that God intends us to experience, which suffering arguably serves to bind us together. I sympathize with this view, as my personal ill health has served to create empathy for others that I otherwise would not have gained. But I still have this question:

 

Do you oppose taking medications or other treatments that temper suffering but do not end life? For example, is it morally acceptable to take chicken soup to fight a flu, Advil to fight a headache, go to a chiropractor for back pain, take medical marijuana or oxicotone after a severe car accident, or choose an epidural to alleviate the pain of child birth? If so, why, and what is the moral difference between these actions and the action of ending one's life a few months early in order to avoid pain and suffering?

Buckeye, if you don't know the difference between reducing suffering and ending life, I don't know of anything I could say that would help.  I can only hope you are being facetious. 

[LOSTONE]

I believe in the right to die with dignity for those who are mentally sound, but suffering in pain from a terminal illness. Under this condition, I agree that the person who is terminally ill should have the right to end their life when they see fit to do so in a comforting fashion.

My dad died of lung cancer. He did not have the right to die with dignity because of the state which he lived in. He did have the right to suffer endlessly to a true bitter end while all those who loved him suffered watching him die this way and where unable to do a damn thing about it. My dad suffered in physical pain when he should of had the options not to. Those who loved him suffered watching him suffer when they should of had better options for him. My dad was a Christian and a believer no better, but no less than any other believer is, but I think if my dad had the options to die with dignity, he would of chose it.

It’s insensitive to say that our terminally ill pets can be allowed to die with dignity to avoid them suffering any pain, but our love ones who are terminally ill and in sound mind must suffer to there end. Animals have more legal comforting options than people do it this case and it’s wrong. Anyone who says that such a terminally ill person should endure and suffer until the end comes on it’s own is wrong in my personal experiences. Unless you have personally been with a love one who has been terminally ill and suffered to the brutal end, you don’t know the hell it is for them or there love ones. I lost my dad to terminal illness, my uncle and aunt and at least one friend to terminal illness and they all suffered to a brutal end, but thank goodness that my dog has the legal option never to have to do through the same thing. Don’t make sense to me nor is right.

Disagree with me all you want and claim that I am not a true Christian or believer, but I say it again, I believe in the right to die with dignity for those who are mentally sound, but suffering in pain from a terminal illness. Under this condition, I agree that the person who is terminally ill should have the right to end their life when they see fit to do so in a comforting fashion because I have the experience to know about this too many times first hand. Do the disagreeing people have that experience?

What Maynard did was nothing short of a true hard choice in life, but she was with in all her proper judgments and rights to make this choice and she had loving family that understood her situation and decision. This is not a choice to be judged by man, but by God. Bless Maynard and her family.

[ksfisher]

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

 

Matthew 26:39

 

 

Why was the Savior hung on a cross and mocked?  Why was the creator of the earth not allowed to "die with dignity, but instead suffered the Father's will in all things? 

[Tacenda]

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

 

Matthew 26:39

 

 

Why was the Savior hung on a cross and mocked?  Why was the creator of the earth not allowed to "die with dignity, but instead suffered the Father's will in all things? 

10 years though????

[Buckeye]

Buckeye, if you don't know the difference between reducing suffering and ending life, I don't know of anything I could say that would help.  I can only hope you are being facetious. 

 

Buzzard, several posts in this thread have made the argument that ending one's life selfishly deprives one of suffering and the learning that comes with suffering. Putting aside all other arguments, I wanted to focus on this one idea and draw out arguments (if they exist) as to why it is illegitimate to reduce suffering at death but perfectly acceptable to reduce suffering during life. If you have something constructive to add, please do.

[Calm]

I'm related through marriage to the family that took their own lives in Springville.  They will be in the People magazine I believe.  I wonder if they had not believed in such a glorious after life if that would have gave them pause to take their lives.  Maybe we shouldn't emphasize how beautiful the after life is or how if we knew we'd kill ourselves to get there.  In this way the Atheist have it a little better, where they may not believe they wake up if they die.  And they hold out as long as possible to this world.

He and other distraught family members say that looking back, they now realize that Benjamin, 37, and Kristi, 36, were showing signs of mental illness, especially in the weeks before their deaths. "They had isolated themselves from neighbors and some of the family," he says, "and it had been awhile since Ben had been to work." 

Isaac and another relative, Bob McGee, Janson's uncle, say that Benjamin and Kristi Strack were also exhibiting "irrational fear," afraid that something or someone was going to harm them. 

"Their mental illness combined with substance-abuse disorder is what led to this tragedy," says Isaac. "Some of the changed behaviors before their deaths seemed out of place and didn't make sense at the time. But looking back now, they make sense. And now we want to speak out to prevent other people from having to endure what we are enduring." 

Extended family members believe that the couple were "victims of their minds," says McGee, with their mental illness caused and made worse by drug use. "This one action does not define the Ben and Kristi that we remember," he says. "They were caught in a vicious cycle that many people face in this world. There needs to be a greater sense of dialogue and urgency in our country regarding mental illness. It is simply a disease of the mind, and like any disease, we should work to cure it and prevent it."

http://www.people.com/article/utah-family-5-ben-kristi-strack-murder-suicide-poison

Edited November 3, 2014 by calmoriah

[Buckeye]

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

 

Matthew 26:39

 

 

Why was the Savior hung on a cross and mocked?  Why was the creator of the earth not allowed to "die with dignity, but instead suffered the Father's will in all things? 

 

See Cal's post at the top of page 3. Christ did eventually choose the time of his death. He could have prolonged the suffering he wanted (presumably forever) but reached a point when the work was finished and voluntarily gave up his life.

[Calm]

In this way the Atheist have it a little better, where they may not believe they wake up if they die.  And they hold out as long as possible to this world.

Not really:

 

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

 

Concerning suicide rates, this is the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicides rates (which compared 100 countries), of the top ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, all but one (Sri Lanka) are strongly irreligious nations with high levels of atheism. It is interesting to note, however, that of the top remaining nine nations leading the world in male suicide rates, all are former Soviet/Communist nations, such as Belarus, Ukraine, and Latvia. Of the bottom ten nations with the lowest male suicide rates, all are highly religious nations with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism.

It is important to keep in mind that atheism and agnosticism have no inherent proscription against suicide, so higher rates of suicide among agnostics and atheists should in no way be considered a failure of these belief systems. Indeed, compassionate tolerance for suicide and euthenasia are widely regarded as hallmarks of many secular societies.

Edited November 3, 2014 by calmoriah

[ksfisher]

See Cal's post at the top of page 3. Christ did eventually choose the time of his death. He could have prolonged the suffering he wanted (presumably forever) but reached a point when the work was finished and voluntarily gave up his life.

 

With all respect to Cal, the scripture does not say the Christ chose the time of his death, only that he was aware that it had arrived. 

[Rivers]

Its a very challenging subject. When talking of pets we always say that owners should not make them suffer and its usually a guess when to take them to the vet for a one way trip as they can not tell us.

This is a good point. Didn't Christ teach "How much then is a man better than a sheep?" (Matt. 12:12)

Edited November 4, 2014 by Rivers

[VideoGameJunkie]

I envy those that die quick and painlessly. I fear suffering. I especially wish children didn't have to suffer.

[pogi]

I agree that there is much personal growth and learning to be had from suffering through the issues of life.  It does teach us empathy, it builds strength, it allows us to more fully comprehend and experience joy, it helps us prepare for a better future.  It does all of these things, except when you have a debilitating terminal illness with 6 months to live.  Typically, most of the pain and discomfort can be well managed through the end of life with skilled hospice professionals, the down-side is that they are now sedated out of their mind. What sanctity is there in that exactly?

[Buckeye]

I agree that there is much personal growth and learning to be had from suffering through the issues of life.  It does teach us empathy, it builds strength, it allows us to more fully comprehend and experience joy, it helps us prepare for a better future.  It does all of these things, except when you have a debilitating terminal illness with 6 months to live.  Typically, most of the pain and discomfort can be well managed through the end of life with skilled hospice professionals, the down-side is that they are now sedated out of their mind. What sanctity is there in that exactly?

 

Would you also argue that people lose opportunities to gain empathy and strength by using medically proscribed pain relievers during their lifetime (aspirin, epidurals, morphine, etc.)?

[Buzzard]

Buzzard, several posts in this thread have made the argument that ending one's life selfishly deprives one of suffering and the learning that comes with suffering. Putting aside all other arguments, I wanted to focus on this one idea and draw out arguments (if they exist) as to why it is illegitimate to reduce suffering at death but perfectly acceptable to reduce suffering during life. If you have something constructive to add, please do.

All right, there are different kinds of suffering besides physical suffering.  Emotional suffering, regret, anguish, worries about the future, and so on.  It just seems obvious that Heavenly Father did not mean for us to eschew all methods of reducing physical pain.

The way to reduce other kinds of pain is out there as well.  Prayer for example, and supporting each other during hard times. When my physical death approaches, I can take medication to keep me somewhat comfortable, but my wife will need her friends and family members, as well as assistance from on high to help with the other issues.  And going through those struggles together CAN build spiritual strength, though I wish it were not so.  

Does that satisfy your definition of something constructive?

[Buckeye]

All right, there are different kinds of suffering besides physical suffering.  Emotional suffering, regret, anguish, worries about the future, and so on.  It just seems obvious that Heavenly Father did not mean for us to eschew all methods of reducing physical pain.

The way to reduce other kinds of pain is out there as well.  Prayer for example, and supporting each other during hard times. When my physical death approaches, I can take medication to keep me somewhat comfortable, but my wife will need her friends and family members, as well as assistance from on high to help with the other issues.  And going through those struggles together CAN build spiritual strength, though I wish it were not so.  

Does that satisfy your definition of something constructive?

 

Yes, thank you. And I know from prior posts that you have more experience with end-of-life issues than I do.

[ksfisher]

10 years though????

 

My mother has had MS for the last 35.  She's been in a rest home for the last 8.  When I go and visit her and say "hi Mom" she says "hi Mom" back.  If I say "happy birthday" she replies "happy birthday" in return.  She's not anywhere near the person who I new growing up. 

 

One of my sisters also has MS.  She knows exactly what her life will be like in 20 or so years.  I can't imagine what it would feel like to look at my mother and see how I would end up. 

 

If my mother had made the decision to end her life when she was in full possession of her faculties then my youngest daughter would never had seen her.  My two boys probably only have vague memories of a women in a wheel chair.  

 

Life isn't fair, it isn't always fun or full of dignity.  Sometimes life is leaving work in the middle of the day to help your mother up off the floor of her bathroom where she fell and wasn't able to make it to the toilet (done that a couple times many years ago).  How undignified is that. 

 

My mother is the glue that holds our extended family together.  Those value of those family bonds is beyond measure.  I'm glad that my children have been able to know my mother and see the courage with which she faces each day. 

 

Why things like this have to happen I don't fully understand.  I do know that God understands and that his love for us is infinite.  I don't know why we have to learn so much through suffering, but I trust in Him.

Edited November 3, 2014 by ksfisher

[pogi]

Would you also argue that people lose opportunities to gain empathy and strength by using medically proscribed pain relievers during their lifetime (aspirin, epidurals, morphine, etc.)?

 

I think you mean medically 'prescribed' pain relievers.  Using proscribed pain relievers is drug abuse. 

 

I think the benefits of pain relievers (used under the direction of a skilled medical doctor and wise judgement) far outweighs any potential growth through needless suffering. I personally don't have empathy for someone with a headache who refuses to take an aspirin.  Why do you ask? 

 

Suffering is not something that we should needlessly welcome, but it is not something that we should avoid at all costs either.  As with everything, we need to follow the spirit and use wise judgement, or we are at risk of physical, emotional and spiritual numbness and isolation.  

Edited November 3, 2014 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

I believe that, too. But there is a thought by some faiths that a person who is of sound mind can willfully and calculatedly take his own life very deliberately. Hence the teaching by some faiths that people who commit suicide are destined for hell with no chance of redemption.

I agree with the argument that no one of sound mind would commit suicide. There was an article in the Ensign several years ago by Elder M. Russell Ballard entitled Suicide: Some Things We Know and Some We Do Not. The general idea that this article gave was that a loving and merciful Father in Heaven would look at suicides on a case-by-case basis, as someone here already mentioned.

"Obviously we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only The Lord knows all the details, and He it is who will judge our actions here on earth.

When he does judge us, I feel He will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth."

The article is very comforting for family members dealing with the sorrow of losing a loved one in this way. My brother committed suicide, so this subject is very close to me.

I'll see if I can find the article online, and then edit with a link.

Here is the link to this beautiful article:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/suicide-some-things-we-know-and-some-we-do-not?lang=eng

I carry a printout of this article in my bag that I take to Church on Sunday, along with my Scriptures and other Sunday items. I read it often because of my brother.

I hope this doesn't derail the topic of euthanasia, but since we are discussing the eternal ramifications of taking one's life in whatever circumstances, I thought this article pertinent.

Thanks- it's a difficult subject!

[Calm]

With all respect to Cal, the scripture does not say the Christ chose the time of his death, only that he was aware that it had arrived. 

I agree that it is not clear, but the possibility exists….enough so I've heard it taught that way a lot….that Christ could have stopped at any time people from killing him, but went willingly and even just that means he did not have to die at that time but chose when to do so for himself (by aligning with the Will of the Father, of course).

 

https://www.lds.org/study/topic/print/atonement-of-jesus-christ

 

From before the Creation of the earth, the Savior has been our only hope for “peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come” ( D&C 59:23).

Only He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again. From His mortal mother, Mary, He inherited the ability to die. From His immortal Father, He inherited the power to overcome death. He declared, “As the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” ( John 5:26).

 

Edited November 3, 2014 by calmoriah