Euthanasia

[Calm]

I can assure you that your "projections" are accurate and that you are not alone in this very self-less and human response.

I may be depriving members of my family to go in empathy and understanding of others' suffering though...but I think I do a decent mix because if they can help. I don't usually hesitate to ask and they are aware of what I do and still come in to check on me. Otoh, I know of some parents and spouses who protect their family members to the point they end up being quite unempathetic and instead are resentful when others' sufferings interfere with their life at all so I do see the value of allowing others to share in one's suffering even if only by knowing another is aware of it...there can be a lot of easing of the emotional side of pain knowing one is not suffering and no one knows enough about it to care it is happening to you.

[Calm]

Semantic interpretation? Define suicide. Is it not ending one's life? did someone kill Jesus?

See my post for example how it may be different.

[pogi]

there can be a lot of easing of the emotional side of pain knowing one is not suffering and no one knows enough about it to care it is happening to you.

 

That is an interesting insight into the "emotional side of pain".  

[pogi]

I may be depriving members of my family to go in empathy and understanding of others' suffering though...

 

I agree that we need to allow others to suffer with us and may be depriving them when we hide our pain, but there is a point when bonding through pain and suffering just turns into suffering for both parties.  You are right, we should mourn with those that mourn, but we should also comfort those that stand in need of comfort - no one would argue that we are denying others of experiencing empathy etc. by receiving comfort.  Death, like an epidural, is sometimes the only comfort available for all involved and should not be denied in my opinion. 

Edited November 5, 2014 by pogi

[Calm]

That is an interesting insight into the "emotional side of pain".

It is perhaps an immature way of dealing with it, but I have seen it with myself and others the pain itself is more bearable if someone else knows it is there. Perhaps it is feeling someone can think of us as brave if they know we are suffering, but not making a huge deal about it.

I think it is more likely though we want people to understand and be aware of us, to believe we impact on others' lives, we matter and this is just another variation of it.

Pain is definitely an emotional, mental as well as a physical experience. I cut down a lot on drugs by reading message boards and other things that allow me to be not only distracted but involved in minor ways. It appears to be the same for many...

I find TV more effective than books even though I enjoy reading more, but TV swallows me up easier. And reading to respond such as on the message board requires just enough more attention to work better as well. Too much concentration needed, pain gets in the way so it needs to be something relatively simple but complex enough it engages the brain.

PS: however there is the opposite effect that occurs sometimes where focusing on pain increases it...happens all the time for me with my movement disorder as I will think "do I need to take any meds or am I okay" and decide I am okay only to have symptoms go into overdrive as soon as that decision is made. And this post is an example of this because I just triggered an episode, lol.

Edited November 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[VideoGameJunkie]

Cal I'm very interested in what you're going through and what type of pain you have to endure. I understand though if you want to remain private. I suffer a lot in the brain myself and have a hard time concentrating.

[mfbukowski]

What of those who claim to choose suicide to remove an intolerable in their opinion burden from their family...such as in dying so as not to leave medical bills that would reduce a spouse to living in poverty or being unable to get the medical help needed for them to have a decent life?

How would you feel if your handicapped child committed suicide for those reasons?

Or better yet, would it be a noble thing to abort a fetus which was handicapped for those same reasons?

Edited November 5, 2014 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

How would you feel if your handicapped child committed suicide for those reasons?

Or better yet, would it be a noble thing to abort a fetus which was handicapped for those same reasons?

 

Apples and oranges.  

 

If you want to give some examples where the person would actually qualify for assisted suicide, that might help further your arguments of the moral and ethical ramifications of the legislation. 

 

In your examples, they still have a full life ahead of them compared to weeks or months with a bright and hopeful future of possible sedation, complications, shortness of breath and air hunger, severe anxiety, chocking on secretions, pressure ulcers and skin breakdown from immobility, uncontrollable neuropathic pain, seizures, drowning in their fluid filled lungs, fever, pneumonia, deep vain thrombosis, anorexic starvation, nausea, vomiting, sleeping in their urine and feces, fecal compaction from immobility and subsequent enemas, dehydration, loneliness, fear, helplessness, hopelessness, worthlessness, worry for their families, complete debility, muscle wasting, boredom, delusions and hallucinations, terminal restlessness and just a bunch of waiting and wanting to die for your sake and for your families - and all this at the emotional and financial expense of your family so you can experience it all again for one more day.  One of your first two examples doesn't have a choice in the matter and the other is still a child.  As I said, my patients are typically 80-98 year old females.  Their spouses have already passed on.  They have had their children and grand-children and lived their lives and now they want to say good-bye.  

 

In the event that you had a fair comparison, it still does not further your argument that it is selfish to opt for assisted suicide. 

Edited November 5, 2014 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Apples and oranges.  

 

The one has a full life ahead of them.  The other has weeks to months of waiting in bed sedated, with no life left to live.  One of your first two examples doesn't have a choice in the matter and the other is still a child.  As I said, my patients are typically 80-98 year old females.  Their spouses have already passed on.  They have had their children and grand-children and lived their lives.

 

The point was simply that it is not always a selfish decision.  In the event that you had a fair comparison, it still does not further your argument that it is selfish to opt for assisted suicide.

I do not agree that old people have nothing to give, no progress to make and nothing to learn, and nothing to contribute. If they themselves think that is true, then I suppose they deserve to die.

Such a waste! Such a tragedy!

"Do not go gentle into that good night, but rage, rage against the dying of the light."

[mfbukowski]

How is one filling the measure of one's creation by choosing death?

[Calm]

How would you feel if your handicapped child committed suicide for those reasons?Or better yet, would it be a noble thing to abort a fetus which was handicapped for those same reasons?

Since I haven't experienced it I can't really say, but I can imagine instances where I might be able to accept it if it was coupled with other reasons and if the Spirit told me it was the right thing to do(the Church does allow for abortion in certain cases, I do not believe all infants should automatically be put through excruciating pain in order to survive just because we have the medical ability when God himself did not provide such measures in the past for their survival. I think it needs to be a case by case decision. Edited November 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Cal I'm very interested in what you're going through and what type of pain you have to endure. I understand though if you want to remain private. I suffer a lot in the brain myself and have a hard time concentrating.

Pm me sometime after tomorrow to remind me and we can talk about it.

[pogi]

Do not go gentle into that good night,

 

 

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

 

 

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

 

Do not go gentle into that good night

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Do not go gentle into that good night

Maybe throw in some concentration camp photos next time. They would be even worse by far. Golly maybe you will even get yourself banned.

Yep, life is about trials isn't it? It's about overcoming trials, not giving up. You need a good dose of Vikor Frankl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

I can't believe that a Mormon would advocate suicide when we are here to experience trials. D&C 122 might be a good read. Oh but that was different because Joseph was not old I guess.

[pogi]

How is one filling the measure of one's creation by choosing death?

 

How is one filling the measure of one's creation by living for another month all alone in an assisted living facility in misery? 

 

How is one filling the measure of one's creation by watching TV?  Should we outlaw that too? "What a waste!" "What a tragedy!"

Edited November 5, 2014 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Since I haven't experienced it I can't really say, but I can imagine instances where I might be able to accept it if it was coupled with other reasons and if the Spirit told me it was the right thing to do(the Church does allow for abortion in certain cases, I do not believe all infants should automatically be put through excruciating pain in order to survive just because we have the medical ability when God himself did not provide such measures in the past for their survival. I think it needs to be a case by case decision.

The spirit takes priority over everything else, no question, but we are talking about legislation here. This is a moral issue.

And I was never ever talking about keeping people alive who should have died naturally. That is a whole different thing.

Your reply was about someone committing suicide because it would cost their family money if they survived. That is quite different.

We DO give medical help to indigent people. Ask Pogi- I am sure he knows who pays for his services.

[mfbukowski]

How is one filling the measure of one's creation by living for another month all alone in an assisted living facility in misery? 

 

How is one filling the measure of one's creation by watching TV?  Should we outlaw that too? "What a waste!" "What a tragedy!"

That is up to the individual. We all have the freedom to use our time to improve ourselves or not. I would not presume to kill every person who wastes their lives on videogames and internet boards.

[mfbukowski]

Another question entirely is competency.

If one is in terminal pain, could they legally sign a contract? Under what circumstances would pusing any decision on a person in extreme pain constitute "duress"?

Would these individuals be able to make a rational decision to end their lives or not? A Do-Not-Resuscitate order is one thing, but taking affirmative action to end a life is entirely different.

Edited November 5, 2014 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

I can't believe that a Mormon would advocate suicide when we are here to experience trials. D&C 122 might be a good read. Oh but that was different because Joseph was not old I guess.

 

I also advocate for the use of the pain meds that you are on, perhaps we should outlaw them so that you can experience the trials that life is all about - you know, so you can get a good dose of Frankl.  Simply because I advocate for the rights of others to choose for themselves, doesn't mean that I will choose or encourage it for anyone.  I also advocate for the legal choice of others to drink alcohol, and even marijuana that I don't believe in using myself.  What a jack Mormon, I know!

 

Just to clarify, you advocate for a person to be sedated out of their pain and misery to the point of unconsciousness for the remaining weeks to months of their life so that they can fill the measure of their creation, learn something, give something, or overcome something?  You want them to "rage, rage against the dying of the night" and "burn and rave" with a morphine pump hooked up and their eyes rolled back in their head?  

Edited November 5, 2014 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

What of those who claim to choose suicide to remove an intolerable in their opinion burden from their family...such as in dying so as not to leave medical bills that would reduce a spouse to living in poverty or being unable to get the medical help needed for them to have a decent life?

Do you believe that these are rationalizations to excuse their acts based on fear for themselves (I have no doubt that some do this, at this point I don't see a reason to assume that all who say this is why are lying to themselves but am wondering if you do see one...due to experience or something else).

Just re-noticed this.

I think there are some people who are so used to giving to their families, that they kind of mentally erase their own needs thinking that they are therefore "putting their family first" and being unselfish, when in fact that is not necessarily a good thing.

Service is always a tough balancing act. One must be strong oneself in order to effectively serve others. One must have a firm sense of self and a firm knowledge of who one is, and where the boundaries lie between oneself and others. One must have solitiude to serve. One must have health to serve. One must take care of your SELF in order to give to others.

Plus I think sometimes resentment settles in when we serve "too much" and that needs to be resolved. I am sure the savior did not have that problem or was able to master it. Resentment is actually anger - emnity toward others- which one does not want to admit exists.

It is said that sometimes suicide is actually deciding to "kill the world" because it is too much to take. It is dropping a nuke on the universe because of anger against everyone and one's position in the world, and what the world has done to us.

Those who serve too much might end up with the kind of resentment which could be rationalized as a final act of "service" in saving one's family when it is really dropping a nuke on all those who pushed the individual into feigning selflessness to the point of erasing one's own needs.

So one needs to balance serving others with maintaining a strong sense of self as well. It's not easy. It can feel selfish to do even a little thing for oneself. That's not good.

Having been there myself, I think it is something that is common among caregivers. I would even think that recommending suicide for someone one is caring for might be connected to this. I don't know. http://www.agingcare.com/Articles/caregivers-kill-parents-commit-suicide-150336.htm

http://www.alzheimersreadingroom.com/2013/03/dementia-caregivers-contemplate-suicide.html

There are numerous other articles on this

Edited November 5, 2014 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

That is up to the individual.

 

Amen

[pogi]

 

Another question entirely is competency.

If one is in terminal pain, could they legally sign a contract? Under what circumstances would pusing any decision on a person in extreme pain constitute "duress"?

Would these individuals be able to make a rational decision to end their lives or not? A Do-Not-Resuscitate order is one thing, but taking affirmative action to end a life is entirely different.

 

 

 

 

"Can we really say these individuals are able to make a voluntary choice? There are, understandably, concerns around the question of competency when a person with a terminal illness is experiencing pain and suffering.

Aren’t health-care professionals more likely to think that a request for an assisted death is reasonable on the part of someone in such a condition? And aren’t people in this condition less likely to be able to determine their true wishes, because they’re experiencing so much pain and suffering that it makes it difficult to focus on anything other than having it relieved – even if that means through death? 

Response: The criteria proposed to determine competence is very specific and requires that a full range of information be exchanged between the patient and medical caregivers. Two physicians independently provide information, go over all  available options, and ask questions to establish competence and rule out depression. If a patient, for any reason, fails to meet these stringent criteria then s/he is simply not allowed to participate in any decision-making about a possible hastened death. After all, dying with dignity isn’t about providing end-of-life options to anyone who requests it. Medically-assisted dying is anything other than a routine process.

 

• As a general point, people are capable of – and do – make decisions regularly under conditions that are less than optimal (including fear, anger, influence from others, etc.). For example, these concerns and anxieties often accompany the decision to undergo surgery in hospital, but we still grant that competency and voluntariness can be established. Because medically assisted death is an irreversible decision that involves the participation of health-care professionals, it is subject to even greater oversight and transparency to create a decision setting that is optimal under the circumstances."

 

http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/learn/the-debate-the-key-arguments/inner_articles/399.php

[pogi]

Nevermind 

Edited November 5, 2014 by pogi

[MormonFreeThinker]

Amen

 

pogi,

 

What about people that suffer from "cluster headaches?  Do you believe that they have to right to have Euthanasia?  

Cluster headaches won't kill you, but they are extremely painful.  

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[pogi]

pogi,

 

What about people that suffer from "cluster headaches?  Do you believe that they have to right to have Euthanasia?  

Cluster headaches won't kill you, but they are extremely painful.  

 

Here we go with the "cluster headaches" again! 

 

First of all, I don't believe in euthanasia.  I believe in physician assisted suicide.  There is a difference.  Second, pain is not enough to qualify one for a lethal prescription.  I am not an advocate for suicide in general for any reason.  To receive the prescription you have to have an end-stage terminal diagnosis with a prognosis of 6 months left to live, you have to be at least 18 and mentally competent (no dementia, depression etc.) and able to self-administer the prescription. 

 

P.S. Cluster headaches go away and can be managed, untreatable terminal diagnosis don't. 

Edited November 5, 2014 by pogi