Calm Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Would you also argue that people lose opportunities to gain empathy and strength by using medically proscribed pain relievers during their lifetime (aspirin, epidurals, morphine, etc.)?I would have been totally unempathetic if I hadn't had an epidural for my deliveries. Talk about being reduced to a quivering animal that could pretty much only have one thought in its mind…Stop it!
mfbukowski Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matthew 26:39 Why was the Savior hung on a cross and mocked? Why was the creator of the earth not allowed to "die with dignity, but instead suffered the Father's will in all things? And without morphine! How primitive! And God allowed this? What kind of monster is he?
mfbukowski Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 10 years though????Yeah he couldn't have taken it, I am sure. He would have not been able to do the atonement if he had cancer instead. /sarcasm 1
mfbukowski Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Buzzard, several posts in this thread have made the argument that ending one's life selfishly deprives one of suffering and the learning that comes with suffering. Putting aside all other arguments, I wanted to focus on this one idea and draw out arguments (if they exist) as to why it is illegitimate to reduce suffering at death but perfectly acceptable to reduce suffering during life. If you have something constructive to add, please do.Suffering has a purpose and it can change your life for the better. But I guess many will never learn that lesson. Life itself is a trial. Learning long division in 4th grade was a "trial" for me. Everytime we learn something, we suffer just a little. And when you suffer a lot you learn a lot. But of course you have to experience that to know it. It's the old problem of trying to teach a blind person about the color blue. Without experiencing blue you will never know what it is like.
mfbukowski Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) With all respect to Cal, the scripture does not say the Christ chose the time of his death, only that he was aware that it had arrived. Uh I don't think any of us is in any position to read the mind of Christ at the time of his death, as if we understood anything about it. For all we know the Father told him it was finished- in fact I am sure that is what happened. Edited November 4, 2014 by mfbukowski 1
Silhouette Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) Thanks- it's a difficult subject!You are most welcome. I have been sustained by that article throughout difficult times in thinking about the state of my brother's eternal well-being. When my husband did the temple work for my father and brother, we received immediate confirmation that my father had accepted the Gospel in the Spirit World. We did my brother's work the same day and received no such confirmation. This still troubles me greatly today. Was it because my brother didn't accept the Gospel? Or could it be because he still had repentance to do for things he did in his earthly life? Was it because he took his own life? I don't have the answers to these questions that plague me, but I have hope because of Elder Ballard's article. Edited November 4, 2014 by Silhouette 1
mfbukowski Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Would you also argue that people lose opportunities to gain empathy and strength by using medically proscribed pain relievers during their lifetime (aspirin, epidurals, morphine, etc.)?Yes, I would argue that. I use them all the time but that is because I am weak, and I am cutting back gradually and find myself mentally stronger every day.
mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 All right, there are different kinds of suffering besides physical suffering. Emotional suffering, regret, anguish, worries about the future, and so on. It just seems obvious that Heavenly Father did not mean for us to eschew all methods of reducing physical pain.The way to reduce other kinds of pain is out there as well. Prayer for example, and supporting each other during hard times. When my physical death approaches, I can take medication to keep me somewhat comfortable, but my wife will need her friends and family members, as well as assistance from on high to help with the other issues. And going through those struggles together CAN build spiritual strength, though I wish it were not so. Does that satisfy your definition of something constructive?For me one of the reasons I take pain meds is because I become so irritiable I end up grumping at the people who love me the most and sometimes am positively mean. But I am getting better and more tolerant as I cut back. Still not close to where I want to be though!
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 mfbukowski, I assume you're healthy at this point of your life, but if you got terminal cancer and had to suffer a very long time, near the end wouldn't you just want a quick way out?
MormonFreeThinker Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/07/opinion/maynard-assisted-suicide-cancer-dignity/?c=&page=1I am guessing most of us have heard this story. Is there any reason to object to Brittany Maynard's decision from an LDS point of view? Here is the position of the church. But what about Cryonics? Here is a similar story
mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) I would have been totally unempathetic if I hadn't had an epidural for my deliveries. Talk about being reduced to a quivering animal that could pretty much only have one thought in its mind…Stop it!Yes, obviously it gets to that point. I would not recommend having a hip or knee replacement or open heart surgery without anesthesia to build character. But I did find that open heart surgery can be a great way to lose weight, but dieting is a tad easier Edited November 4, 2014 by mfbukowski 1
Anijen Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) I feel it could be less caring and perhaps even selfish to force one to continue to experience a great deal of pain and suffering so that they might live on (in constant acute pain) another 2 weeks. She was diagnosed with something so far as we know is incurable. I too, like Kathryn the Great, do not see this as a suicide. Please don't misunderstand I believe in faith, healing, prayer, fasting, and have seen miracles in my life; I would need divine confirmation before I did it, but I think it could be viewed as a merciful option, one that maintains dignity, negates foreseeable loss of self, avoids intense suffering, and I could relatively know how close I was to death and take away its sting/victory by surrounding myself with loved ones and being thankful for their love and association. Besides I have a testimony of the next life and I would look forward to being there. Edited November 4, 2014 by Anijen 1
pogi Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 Here is the position of the church. But what about Cryonics? Here is a similar story The link you just posted answered your own question if you are wondering about the position of the church. "When dying from such an illness or an accident becomes inevitable, it should be seen as a blessing and a purposeful part of eternal existence. Members should not feel obligated to extend mortal life by means that are unreasonable. These judgments are best made by family members after receiving wise and competent medical advice and seeking divine guidance through fasting and prayer."
mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 mfbukowski, I assume you're healthy at this point of your life, but if you got terminal cancer and had to suffer a very long time, near the end wouldn't you just want a quick way out?No. I am sure I would take pain meds, but I would never end my life voluntarily. Never.
Silhouette Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 Here is the position of the church.But what about Cryonics? Here is a similar storyWell, I guess that link on the Church's position settles the question for me. I hadn't realized there was an official position regarding euthanasia. Now that I know the Church's position, I don't think I could ever do that to myself. Of course that's easy for me to say as I sit here fairly healthy, but I have had cancer twice, and if it had not been stopped, I was in for an ugly time before I died.I don't know about cryogenics. The video wouldn't feed properly so I didn't get to watch the whole thing. I'll retry in a bit.
mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) I feel it could be less caring and perhaps even selfish to force one to continue to experience a great deal of pain and suffering so that they might live on (in constant acute pain) another 2 weeks. She was diagnosed with something so far as we know is incurable. I too, like Kathryn the Great, do not see this as a suicide. Please don't misunderstand I believe in faith, healing, prayer, fasting, and have seen miracles in my life; I would need divine confirmation before I did it, but I think it could be viewed as a merciful option, one that maintains dignity, negates foreseeable loss of self, avoids intense suffering, and I could relatively know how close I was to death and take away its sting/victory by surrounding myself with loved ones and being thankful for their love and association. Besides I have a testimony of the next life and I would look forward to being there. "Forcing one to continue to experience a great deal of pain and suffering" is not the same as choosing for one self that it is time to die. I would not force anyone to do that either. On the other hand, I would never terminate my own life, I don't see what your comment has to do with the case at hand, If it is about the law, and permitting suicide, I find it kind of silly. If I wanted to commit suicide I would not be worried about whether or not it was legal. Frankly, I would get out the .357 and it would be over in a few seconds. No pain. Edited November 4, 2014 by mfbukowski
SmileyMcGee Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 Endure until the end. Pain and suffering makes us humble. This is a necesarry trait to become like Christ.Interesting that you tout pain and suffering as a means to become like the man who you believe healed the sick and suffered that all might not suffer. Jesus is so un-Christlike.
SmileyMcGee Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) No. I am sure I would take pain meds, but I would never end my life voluntarily. Never.Well, technically Jesus ended his life voluntarily so it can't be all that bad in certain circumstances. If I were God, I'd probably sympathize with those with terminal illnesses. There are exception to many commandments and I trust a loving God has an exception for the "don't end your own life" rule. Edited November 4, 2014 by SmileyMcGee
mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 Well, technically Jesus ended his life voluntarily so it can't be all that bad in certain circumstances.No, technically he did not. He did nothing but that which the Father wanted him to do. His will was perfectly aligned with his Father's will. Unfortunately we do not have a perfect understanding of when God wants to call us home, so there is no comparison here to suicide. 1
strappinglad Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) Soldiers voluntarily end their lives all the time. So do firemen and policemen, and joe/jane citizen who tries to pull a driver out of a burning car. We call them heroes when they do this. We say that 'Fred' fought a courageous battle with cancer until the end. This dying with dignity problem is really only a late 20th century problem. Before then, most terminally ill folks died of pneumonia or some other disease before dying of the main disease. People died at home often with little to relieve the pain. Perhaps the medicals professionals on the board can relate just how prevalent physician assisted end of life ' relief ' is. Edited November 4, 2014 by strappinglad 1
Rivers Posted November 4, 2014 Author Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) Deleted Edited November 4, 2014 by Rivers
pogi Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 If it is about the law, and permitting suicide, I find it kind of silly. If I wanted to commit suicide I would not be worried about whether or not it was legal. Frankly, I would get out the .357 and it would be over in a few seconds. No pain. I hope you are joking.
mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 I hope you are joking. Why-? no I am not joking. This seems much ado about nothing.
pogi Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 Why-? no I am not joking. This seems much ado about nothing. If you could spend a day with my patients and their families, you would know why blowing your head off with a 357 is not an option.
mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 If you could spend a day with my patients and their families, you would know why blowing your head off with a 357 is not an option. I have no clue what you are talking about. I know nothing about you, your patients, or why they would want to commit suicide, or whatever it is you are talking about.
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