Jeanne Posted August 6, 2014 Posted August 6, 2014 Uh Oh..I know..I am already in trouble here..but does anybody see what a rediculous conversation this is? Angels?? Kingdoms??I do understand where you are coming from..a member for over 40 years.
Ahab Posted August 6, 2014 Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) double post deleted Edited August 7, 2014 by Ahab
Ahab Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) On the original question, this might be worth some consideration:http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/18/is-the-celestial-kingdom-divided-into-three-subdegrees/Interesting thoughts and I've had them before. There is also mention of the 3 degrees of glory as being 3 main subdivisions and that within each subdivision there are many, many degrees of glory, which makes a lot of sense when thinking of glory as intelligence so that what we're really talking about is 3 main subdivisions of people with various degrees of intelligence (the glory of God - our species - including all 3).So what it looks like to me is 1 main subdivision with all of the least intelligent people having what is called telestial glory (intelligence), these being the people who would not repent and had to serve time in prison to pay for their own sins instead of the atonement covering them, at which point they were at least intelligent enough to accept our Savior as their Lord rather than following Satan into what we call outer darkness.And then there is another main subdivision of more intelligent people whose main failing was that they just weren't intelligent enough on their own to find the truth and instead were misled by the false philosophies and ideas of either their own people with the same degree of intelligence or those with even less, telestial type, intelligence.And then the other main subdivision is the group of people with the most intelligence, who took or received or accepted the Holy Spirit as their guide and because of that lived their lives more intelligently. At one time I thought most other Christian groups would fit in the terrestrial category but now I'm thinking the more intelligent among them may be in this highest order, although in the lower orders within this subdivision because they still refused to accept or receive some intelligence. Edited August 7, 2014 by Ahab
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 7, 2014 Author Posted August 7, 2014 Jeanne, what do you mean about how ridiculous the convo is?
JLHPROF Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 Uh Oh..I know..I am already in trouble here..but does anybody see what a rediculous conversation this is? Angels?? Kingdoms??I do understand where you are coming from..a member for over 40 years. ? How is this "rediculous?" I suppose an atheist might find it so, but it is a very sensible religious conversation.
Calm Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) If one substitutes "servant of God" for "angel" and "area of given by God authority and care", does that sound less ridiculous? "Angel" and "kingdom" are just a shortcut way of saying the above. Edited August 7, 2014 by calmoriah
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 7, 2014 Author Posted August 7, 2014 I still tend to think: Top Level - Sealed through marriage Middle Level- Endowed in temple, but not sealed through marriage Lowest Level- Baptized into church, but not endowed or sealed through marriage
Ahab Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) I still tend to think:Top Level - Sealed through marriageMiddle Level- Endowed in temple, but not sealed through marriageLowest Level- Baptized into church, but not endowed or sealed through marriageCan you explain why you have that idea and how it relates to glory being equal to intelligence? Edited August 7, 2014 by Ahab
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 7, 2014 Author Posted August 7, 2014 I feel like ordinances are what's necessary for salvation. I heard baptism gets you access to the Celestial Kingdom and marriage sealing is necessary for exaltation and the top of the CK, so I assumed the only other temple ordinance in between would be the endowment and that would explain the middle level.
Ahab Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 I feel like ordinances are what's necessary for salvation. I heard baptism gets you access to the Celestial Kingdom and marriage sealing is necessary for exaltation and the top of the CK, so I assumed the only other temple ordinance in between would be the endowment and that would explain the middle level.I don't disagree with you but there is more to it than you mentioned.I understand the endowment as being symbolic for receiving sacred intelligence/glory/knowledge from our Father which is only a part, and a very small part, of the intelligence/glory/knowledge he will give us as we continue to learn from him and his messengers. I know we can learn from him and his messengers outside of the temple, before we can enter the temple and learn there, too, but what makes the endowment special and sacred is that it symbolizes the intelligence/glory/knowledge that only those who progress to that point of celestial glory can attain, after baptism and what that symbolizes, but before or not to the same level as those who progress even further will attain.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 8, 2014 Author Posted August 8, 2014 So how do you gain the most intelligence and knowledge?
Jeanne Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 I am sorry that I couldn't get back online for awhile. Work. In any case, all of you should know that yes, I believed this too..but after all is said and done, would a loving God require all these LDS absolutes in order to get to a Celestial Kingdom? Loving his children, would he really separate families..separate individuals from administering angels to others, and all this with secret signs, names and passwords? The three levels..if God is forgiving, and repentance is part of His truth, why would he contradict such love withlevels, a sort of slavery. or a price that creates a humiliating status? Sure, there are those who are more righteous..but his promisies shouldn't come as a basis of reward..but because he loves each one of us..ALL of us.
mfbukowski Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 I am sorry that I couldn't get back online for awhile. Work. In any case, all of you should know that yes, I believed this too..but after all is said and done, would a loving God require all these LDS absolutes in order to get to a Celestial Kingdom? Loving his children, would he really separate families..separate individuals from administering angels to others, and all this with secret signs, names and passwords? The three levels..if God is forgiving, and repentance is part of His truth, why would he contradict such love withlevels, a sort of slavery. or a price that creates a humiliating status? Sure, there are those who are more righteous..but his promisies shouldn't come as a basis of reward..but because he loves each one of us..ALL of us. This is really a total misunderstanding of the plan of salvation. The church teaches that ALL will have a good chance at achieving the CK if not here then in the next life. Many in the church believe that virtually all will be exalted. There was a book out about this fairly recently. It sounds like much of what you think the church teaches is harsh and brutal, so maybe you should abandon what you think you know and sit down with some missionaries and start over. 1
Ahab Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 So how do you gain the most intelligence and knowledge?By learning from our Father and his messengers, as is symbolized in the temple. Line upon line, precept upon precept, never rejecting what he tells us or repenting when we do.It's a very simple concept. We can't totally reject or dismiss what someone who knows everything tries to teach us and still expect to become as intelligent as he is.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 8, 2014 Author Posted August 8, 2014 Very good point Ahab. I will try to gain more intelligence and more knowledge. Looks like I have some conference talks to watch or books to read.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 8, 2014 Author Posted August 8, 2014 Jeanne, I'm not sure if you understand the plan of salvation.
Calm Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 Jeanne, Do you see those who have acted as God's angels/messengers/servants in the past as living some sort of slavery?
JLHPROF Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 I am sorry that I couldn't get back online for awhile. Work. In any case, all of you should know that yes, I believed this too..but after all is said and done, would a loving God require all these LDS absolutes in order to get to a Celestial Kingdom? Loving his children, would he really separate families..separate individuals from administering angels to others, and all this with secret signs, names and passwords? The three levels..if God is forgiving, and repentance is part of His truth, why would he contradict such love withlevels, a sort of slavery. or a price that creates a humiliating status? Sure, there are those who are more righteous..but his promisies shouldn't come as a basis of reward..but because he loves each one of us..ALL of us. I think our definition of love needs a little "demortalization". What we consider love or anti-love may not be in keeping with the pure love of God. Everytime I hear "would a loving God do XYZ" I cringe, because more often than not it's our idea of "loving" that is probably in error, not God's action.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 8, 2014 Author Posted August 8, 2014 Well what can we as members do about love? Love everyone all the time, even those who upset us? That isn't always easy.
Tacenda Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 This is really a total misunderstanding of the plan of salvation.The church teaches that ALL will have a good chance at achieving the CK if not here then in the next life.Many in the church believe that virtually all will be exalted. There was a book out about this fairly recently.It sounds like much of what you think the church teaches is harsh and brutal, so maybe you should abandon what you think you know and sit down with some missionaries and start over.That's only if we're able to progress from kingdom to kingdom. But I don't believe it's been clarified yet. If it is where you can progress, then great. If not, then Jeanne's right, IMO.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 8, 2014 Author Posted August 8, 2014 Tacenda, do you mean that to get to the Celestial Kingdom we have to first start in the Telestial Kingdom?
Tacenda Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 Tacenda, do you mean that to get to the Celestial Kingdom we have to first start in the Telestial Kingdom?No, I'm saying if what we've done in this life constitutes going to the telestial world in the afterlife, would we be able to progress to the CK eventually? If not, then I can see how that would align with Jeanne's post, where families would be separate.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 8, 2014 Author Posted August 8, 2014 Families can only be together if sealed in the Celestial Kingdom. If the family is separated than the family members who are in the higher kingdoms can visit the family members in the lower kingdoms.
Tacenda Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 Families can only be together if sealed in the Celestial Kingdom. If the family is separated than the family members who are in the higher kingdoms can visit the family members in the lower kingdoms.This has never sat well with me, so are you sure people can't progress in kingdoms, or is it definitely where they can only get visits from family in the CK? Apparently there was a church leader that preached progression. BRM comes to mind, but he may also have spoke against.
california boy Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 I still tend to think: Top Level - Sealed through marriage Middle Level- Endowed in temple, but not sealed through marriage Lowest Level- Baptized into church, but not endowed or sealed through marriageSo is marriage necessary in order to be in the Celestial Kingdom or only the top tier? Will people in the lower two levels be married? Sounds like the majority in the Celestial Kingdom will be single.
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