I'm Confused About The 3 Levels Of The Celestial Kingdom

[JLHPROF]

Could you link BY and JS teachings with which you claim to agree? Your logical gymnastics make no sense to me. Whether the inheritors of the celestial glory move on is irrelevant, the CG will still be where God The Father will dwell, and the scriptures say terrestrial occupants will not receive of God's presence.

 

CAN BEINGS EVER STOP PROGRESSING?

 

"To live as I am, without progress, is not life, in fact we may say that is impossible. There is no such principle in existence, neither can there be. All organized existence is in progress, either to an endless advancement in eternal perfections, or back to dissolution. You may explore all the eternities that have been, were it possible, then come to that which we now understand according to the principles of natural philosophy, and where is there an element, an individual living thing, an organized body, of whatever nature, that continues as it is? It cannot be found. All things that have come within the bounds of man's limited knowledge—the things he naturally understands, teach him, that there is no period, in all the eternities, wherein organized existence will become stationary, that it cannot advance in knowledge, wisdom, power, and glory.

If a man could ever arrive at the point that would put an end to the accumulation of life—the point at which he could increase no more, and advance no further, we should naturally say he commenced to decrease at the same point. Again, when he has gained the zenith of knowledge, wisdom, and power, it is the point at which he begins to retrograde; his natural abilities will begin to contract, and so he will continue to decrease, until all he knew is lost in the chaos of forgetfulness. As we understand naturally, this is the conclusion we must come to, if a termination to the increase of life and the acquisition of knowledge is true."  Brigham Young JD 1:349-50

 

WHAT IS GOD'S ENTIRE PURPOSE OF EXISTENCE?

 

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

 

WILL WE EVER CEASE TO LEARN NEW INFORMATION?

 

"Could we live to the age of Methuselah, and eat the fruits which the earth would produce in her strength, as did Adam and Eve before the transgression, and spend our lives in searching after the principles of eternal life, we would find, when one eternity had passed to us, that we had been but children thus far, babies just commencing to learn the things which pertain to the eternities of the Gods.  We might ask, when shall we cease to learn? I will give you my opinion about it; never, never."  - Brigham Young JD 3:202

 

CAN WE (AND GOD) PROGRESS BEYOND THE CELESTIAL LEVEL?

 

"My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself." - Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse

 

D&C 130:10-11 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;  And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

[Tacenda]

Now THAT is a good question. I don't know that I have a legitimate gospel answer. The only one I can think of is in the marriage ceremony, where the bride gives herself to the groom (in addition to receiving him as her husband), and the groom receives the bride but does not give himself to the bride. She has left her father's kingdom and entered that of her husband.

Her husband is now her priesthood head, her father is no longer her priesthood head, although he remains her father.

There is also the connection made when a man gives his daughter to another man to be a wife. This can be seen in the Helen Kimball Smith story where it is said that Heber desired to connected to Joseph by offering Helen as a wife.

I think a woman leaves her father's kingdom to reign over the newly created kingdom with her husband.

But that is just speculation.

Yes, this is where family being sealed in the temple together forever is not as cut and dry as the church makes it out to be. It's quite false with further investigation, IMO.

[Ahab]

What stewardship will I have over my children? By the time we get to heaven, they will be all grown up with spouses of their own. They will have passed through the same mortal experiences I have and I would have no additional wisdom to offer them that they have not gained on their own. In the pre mortal existence, my children were my brothers and sisters--maybe spiritually older than me. Only the order that I was born into this existence made me their mother. I would think they would be off doing their own thing.

As a perfecly good and loving mother of your once-mortal children as well as the other children you will have with your husband in heaven you'll still want to associate with your children in heaven, forever, and if they truly love you, they will still want you to associate with them and they will still hold you in a special position in their heart as their mother, still wanting to be pleasing to you and show (off) all of the things they'll be doing.

You almost make it sound as if you don't think your children will want you to be around them any at all when they're in heaven, or that they will no longer hold you in their hearts as their mother... but the same associations that exist here will also exist in heaven even when we're all enjoying the glory/intelligence that we have.

I'm finding that as I get older I still love my now-mortal mother and father and think more highly of them than any of my other brothers and sisters, except for my wife and children and maybe also my parents parents who are also my (great or grand) parents, and I don't forsee that ever changing.

[katherine the great]

You almost make it sound as if you don't think your children will want you to be around them any at all when they're in heaven, or that they will no longer hold you in their hearts as their mother... but the same associations that exist here will also exist in heaven even when we're all enjoying the glory/intelligence that we have.

 

Oh good heavens no!  Four of my five children adore me.  (The youngest is still in "I'm the center of the universe and I know more than my parents" mode)  However, I don't feel that I exercise any "stewardship" over my older two married sons.  Stewardship entails a responsibility of managing something and I have stepped out of that role in my married son's lives.  We still have an unbreakable bond, but I am no longer responsible for managing them in any way and their lives are their lives and they make their own choices.  I have no doubt that I will continue my association with them in the afterlife because IMO there is no stronger bond than that of a mother and child.  I just don't equate that with stewardship.

[cdowis]

 

 

"The above diagram shows the order and unity of the Kingdom of God. The eternal Father sits at the head, crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Wherever the other lines meet there sits a king and priest under God, bearing rule, authority and dominion under the Father. He is one with the Father because his Kingdom is joined to his Father's and becomes part of it.... It will be seen by the above diagram that there are kingdoms of all sizes, an infinite variety to suit all grades of merit and ability. The chosen vessels of God are the kings and priests that are placed at the heads of their kingdoms. They have received their washings and anointings in the Temple of God on earth." - Orson Hyde

 

This is his personal opinion on how it works, as a hierarchy. 

 

But have a different view ==>>

 

It relates to the concept of a patrimony, where the estate (mansion, etc) is undivided.  Each of those who are members of the patrimony has certain assignments and responsibilities, but none are "above" the others.  The responsibilities are based on individual talents, interests, and the requirements of the estate.

 

I think the parable of the talents is an example of this concept (talent is a measure of money, not the traditional definition).  The individual with ten talents is not a king over those who have one talent, but the talents obviously represent assignments and responsibilities.

 

Christ said that we would inherit all that the Father has, and that we would be "one" with Him and Christ, that we would be "joint heirs", and that fits the concept of a patrimony.

 

Father is the "Lord of the manor", and Christ is the son, but the rest of us are his agents, his servants, with our individual assignments.

[USU78]

Oh good heavens no!  Four of my five children adore me.  (The youngest is still in "I'm the center of the universe and I know more than my parents" mode)  However, I don't feel that I exercise any "stewardship" over my older two married sons.  Stewardship entails a responsibility of managing something and I have stepped out of that role in my married son's lives.  We still have an unbreakable bond, but I am no longer responsible for managing them in any way and their lives are their lives and they make their own choices.  I have no doubt that I will continue my association with them in the afterlife because IMO there is no stronger bond than that of a mother and child.  I just don't equate that with stewardship.

 

When does that end again?  I forget . . .

[Ahab]

Oh good heavens no! Four of my five children adore me. (The youngest is still in "I'm the center of the universe and I know more than my parents" mode) However, I don't feel that I exercise any "stewardship" over my older two married sons. Stewardship entails a responsibility of managing something and I have stepped out of that role in my married son's lives. We still have an unbreakable bond, but I am no longer responsible for managing them in any way and their lives are their lives and they make their own choices. I have no doubt that I will continue my association with them in the afterlife because IMO there is no stronger bond than that of a mother and child. I just don't equate that with stewardship.

It is, though. However you manage your relationship or your actions with or involving your children, whether they're married or not. It's not about who is the "boss" of who. Your stewardship includes every God-given responsibility that God has given to you for which he will hold you accountable and he has never said that your responsibilities involving your children end when they have become 18 years old or whenever they get married or at any other event in their lives. It is meant to continue forever, although your way or level of involvement in their lives will include changes.

Our relationships with our children should become like our Father's (and Mother's) relationship with their children, and it's not like they want us to grow to a point where we will no longer want or honor them in our lives, and I plan to schedule my family reunions at least annually if not semi-annually, forever, and I'll be hoping that most if not all of my family (parents and children) who can come will come. I'm pretty sure there will be some place in the universe that will be able to accommodate such a gathering. And you and all of my other sisters and brothers can drop by to visit too if you want to.

[katherine the great]

When does that end again?  I forget . . .

Hopefully sometime before I die.  It's starting to wear me down.  

[Rob Osborn]

The plan of salvation in its fullest form is that found in the holy temple. There we progress from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial Kingdom and then to the Celestial Kingdom. The temple also shows that salvation is not achieved until we come into the Celestial Kingdom. The Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are just temporary kingdoms used for the sole purpose of advancing us to become like our Heavenly Father. The plan entails the full process for us to become gods ourselves and each and every law and ordinance is set up in such a manner to lead us step by step into fulfilling all that God has to give us. The false doctrine that the Kingdoms are eternally bound and that one cannot progress out of one into the other causes many problems in our doctrine and I suppose at some time in the near future this will be fixed and clarified. Until then we will always continue to have contradictions.

[Ahab]

The plan of salvation in its fullest form is that found in the holy temple. There we progress from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial Kingdom and then to the Celestial Kingdom. The temple also shows that salvation is not achieved until we come into the Celestial Kingdom. The Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are just temporary kingdoms used for the sole purpose of advancing us to become like our Heavenly Father. The plan entails the full process for us to become gods ourselves and each and every law and ordinance is set up in such a manner to lead us step by step into fulfilling all that God has to give us. The false doctrine that the Kingdoms are eternally bound and that one cannot progress out of one into the other causes many problems in our doctrine and I suppose at some time in the near future this will be fixed and clarified. Until then we will always continue to have contradictions.

There is no contradiction in our teachings from our Lord and anyone with enough intelligence can see that. It's just that there will always be some people who won't see that and disagree with our doctrine.

[Ahab]

Hopefully sometime before I die. It's starting to wear me down.

Reminds me of a sign I saw posted in a restaurant:

HIRING

All positions

Any teenager

Apply soon while you still know everything.

The formatting was nicer than in my post, of course.

[JLHPROF]

The plan of salvation in its fullest form is that found in the holy temple. There we progress from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial Kingdom and then to the Celestial Kingdom. The temple also shows that salvation is not achieved until we come into the Celestial Kingdom. The Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are just temporary kingdoms used for the sole purpose of advancing us to become like our Heavenly Father. The plan entails the full process for us to become gods ourselves and each and every law and ordinance is set up in such a manner to lead us step by step into fulfilling all that God has to give us. The false doctrine that the Kingdoms are eternally bound and that one cannot progress out of one into the other causes many problems in our doctrine and I suppose at some time in the near future this will be fixed and clarified. Until then we will always continue to have contradictions.

 

I agree with this, inasmuch as the temple is representative of a creation.  This creation and those who are a part of it absolutlely progress from Telestial to Terrestrial to Celestial.

 

I do not believe that "salvation" involves entering the Celestial Kingdom.  Being saved refers to not remaining in the grave, hence none are lost but the sons of perdition.  All others are saved by Christ.

 

I agree 100% that the doctrine "that the Kingdoms are eternally bound and that one cannot progress out of one into the other causes many problems".  It is not true, the early prophets taught that progression cannot be limited, and it wasn't until the late 20th century that this doctrine was adopted by some.

 

I think where you and I differ is the idea that Telestial and Terrestrial are temporary states on the the path to Celestial or whether they are locations.

We know this earth will be celestialized in the end of time and all who meet the requirements of the celestial kingdom will dwell here.  That is clearly spelled out in the scriptures.  So what of those who are not able to remain in a celestial glory at that time?  They have to have a location until such time as they are prepared.  I do NOT believe it is Celestial or Destruction by the time the earth is Celestialized. 

 

I believe that God's terrestrial and telestial children will have all the time it takes them to progress to a celestial level and while where God and this Celestialized world are they cannot go (catch up) their progression won't run up against a brick wall either.

[cdowis]

The plan of salvation in its fullest form is that found in the holy temple. There we progress from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial Kingdom and then to the Celestial Kingdom. The temple also shows that salvation is not achieved until we come into the Celestial Kingdom. The Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are just temporary kingdoms used for the sole purpose of advancing us to become like our Heavenly Father. 

 

I think you might want to give some more time studying and trying to understand the Plan of Salvation.

[Rodeo]

There is no contradiction in our teachings from our Lord and anyone with enough intelligence can see that. It's just that there will always be some people who won't see that and disagree with our doctrine.

No religion is perfect.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Rodeo

[Rob Osborn]

I agree with this, inasmuch as the temple is representative of a creation.  This creation and those who are a part of it absolutlely progress from Telestial to Terrestrial to Celestial.

 

I do not believe that "salvation" involves entering the Celestial Kingdom.  Being saved refers to not remaining in the grave, hence none are lost but the sons of perdition.  All others are saved by Christ.

 

I agree 100% that the doctrine "that the Kingdoms are eternally bound and that one cannot progress out of one into the other causes many problems".  It is not true, the early prophets taught that progression cannot be limited, and it wasn't until the late 20th century that this doctrine was adopted by some.

 

I think where you and I differ is the idea that Telestial and Terrestrial are temporary states on the the path to Celestial or whether they are locations.

We know this earth will be celestialized in the end of time and all who meet the requirements of the celestial kingdom will dwell here.  That is clearly spelled out in the scriptures.  So what of those who are not able to remain in a celestial glory at that time?  They have to have a location until such time as they are prepared.  I do NOT believe it is Celestial or Destruction by the time the earth is Celestialized. 

 

I believe that God's terrestrial and telestial children will have all the time it takes them to progress to a celestial level and while where God and this Celestialized world are they cannot go (catch up) their progression won't run up against a brick wall either.

All that prevents us from returning to the Fathers presence are our sins. During the millennium Christ will perfect his work meaning that all that he saves will be completely cleansed from all sin and as such Christ will present "all of them" spotless to the Father as one kingdom. Ever wonder what the terrestrial are doing on the earth for the entire 1000 years reigning with Christ? They do not get kicked off in the end. All individuals who reside on the earth during the millennium will be "terrestrial". They then get quickened to celestial glory at the end.

[Rob Osborn]

I think you might want to give some more time studying and trying to understand the Plan of Salvation.

Which plan of salvation? If we are speaking just of that in the Book of Mormon then its either heaven or hell- 2 places. If we are speaking of the plan in the temple then it is a plan where we progress through the two lower kingdoms to get to the Celestial. If it is the plan in our manuals then it is one of 4 locations. You tell me- why do they not all align in our doctrine?

[JLHPROF]

All that prevents us from returning to the Fathers presence are our sins. During the millennium Christ will perfect his work meaning that all that he saves will be completely cleansed from all sin and as such Christ will present "all of them" spotless to the Father as one kingdom. Ever wonder what the terrestrial are doing on the earth for the entire 1000 years reigning with Christ? They do not get kicked off in the end. All individuals who reside on the earth during the millennium will be "terrestrial". They then get quickened to celestial glory at the end.

 

I agree with this.  But not every terrestrial being is guaranteed to have accepted and lived all necessary celestial law by the end of 1000 years.  No terrestrial being can dwell where God is and there is no scripture that terrestrial beings will be destroyed.  There HAS to be somewhere at the end of the millennium for those beings who have not progressed beyond a telestial or terrestrial being or abided a celestial law to dwell.  They cannot dwell on a celestialized earth and I don't believe they will be destroyed.

[Rob Osborn]

There is no contradiction in our teachings from our Lord and anyone with enough intelligence can see that. It's just that there will always be some people who won't see that and disagree with our doctrine.

You are right, there is no contradiction in our teachings from our Lord. Interesting that whenever the Lord speaks directly as recorded in our scripture that he only mentions either the kingdom of Heaven where the Father physically dwells or outer darkness.

[Rob Osborn]

I agree with this.  But not every terrestrial being is guaranteed to have accepted and lived all necessary celestial law by the end of 1000 years.  No terrestrial being can dwell where God is and there is no scripture that terrestrial beings will be destroyed.  There HAS to be somewhere at the end of the millennium for those beings who have not progressed beyond a telestial or terrestrial being or abided a celestial law to dwell.  They cannot dwell on a celestialized earth and I don't believe they will be destroyed.

So, is it a lie when Christ says he will present the kingdom "spotless" to the Father? The only ones not worthy to dwell again with Heavenly Father are those who are "filthy still" and these are the devil and his angels.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Rob Osborn