Reasons Wrongly Given Why Women Don't Have The Priesthood

[Nofear]

To save time, it may be convenient to have a thread where a list of reasons people give why women don't have the priesthood is compiled. The only officially correct reason we have at the moment is "we don't know, God currently set it up that way" (though many contend the latter point -- I personally do not).

 

I can start:

• Women are naturally tend to be more righteous then men; priesthood helps men be more spiritual like women.
• Priesthood is to men as motherhood is to women.

Other reasons, exposition, examples, disagreement, etc.?

[Calm]

Women aren't capable of dealing with the nuances required by thePriesthood, ie. they are too emotional and not able to distance themselves enough so as to be helpful, they are too practical and don't focus on spirituality enough (seen both arguments, not by the same person).

Because someone in the family organization needs to be the leader in order for there to be order (and for some reason couples are either too dense to figure this out for themselves or too competitive or the woman will simply take charge and ignore the man and men having the Priesthood forces women to take notice of men).

Edited June 21, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

To require women to seek men out and become a couple, if men didn't have the Priesthood women wouldn't be as likely to stick around long term.

To provide a balancing complementary relationship where each partner brings different attributes to the relationship making a complete whole.

Having the Priesthood would make more work for an already overburdened woman.

Men need the Priesthood to care for others outside their families, something women apparently do naturally.

Edited June 21, 2014 by calmoriah

[DJBrown]

To save time, it may be convenient to have a thread where a list of reasons people give why women don't have the priesthood is compiled. The only officially correct reason we have at the moment is "we don't know, God currently set it up that way" (though many contend the latter point -- I personally do not).

 

I can start:

• Women are naturally tend to be more righteous then men; priesthood helps men be more spiritual like women.
• Priesthood is to men as motherhood is to women.

Other reasons, exposition, examples, disagreement, etc.?

 

I suggest reading Elder Oaks' talk from this last General Conference.  It that talk, he very much supported the idea that motherhood is to women what Priesthood is to men:

 

"The greatest power God has given to His sons cannot be exercised without the companionship of one of His daughters, because only to His daughters has God given the power “to be a creator of bodies … so that God’s design and the Great Plan might meet fruition.”¹² Those are the words of President J. Reuben Clark.

He continued: “This is the place of our wives and of our mothers in the Eternal Plan. They are not bearers of the Priesthood; they are not charged with carrying out the duties and functions of the Priesthood; nor are they laden with its responsibilities; they are builders and organizers under its power, and partakers of its blessings, possessing the complement of the Priesthood powers and possessing a function as divinely called, as eternally important in its place as the Priesthood itself.”

Women possess the "complement of the Priesthood."  

[Senator]

Women don't want it.

 

I'll let the reader to decide whether that is a wrong reason or not.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Senator

[halconero]

If the temple ordinances are to be taken as "official" stances on women and the priesthood, is it so cut and dry that the official stance is "women don't have it because God said so?"

[Zakuska]

Women have the priesthood and always have had it. They are restricted in they're public use of it which is a shame.

[mfbukowski]

Well of course the OP is one sided- there might be reasons why "rightly" women do not have the priesthood.

 

Men have evolved over generations to operate in hierarchies to achieve results and generally are not concerned with emotions or consensus. "Sounds like a personal problem to me" is the answer when results are not achieved, compassion is seen as irrelevant to results.

 

Women have evolved to seek consensus and  and establish lateral relationships and bonds based on kindness and love, and place consensus and compassion above results.

 

We are very different and civilization cannot exist without both perspectives.  Yin and yang and all that.  Oh pardon.  Opposition in all things.

[mfbukowski]

If the temple ordinances are to be taken as "official" stances on women and the priesthood, is it so cut and dry that the official stance is "women don't have it because God said so?"

Yes.

[DJBrown]

Women have the priesthood and always have had it. They are restricted in they're public use of it which is a shame.

 

How is that a shame?  Does that suggest something is wrong with how the keys of the Priesthood are expressed or utilized by those who possess them (i.e. First Presidency and Quorum of the twelve)?  Or God?

 

I disagree.  Nothing God commands or guides us to do is "a shame."

[halconero]

Yes.

How so?

[Grudunza]

I think Zakuska is referring to this... "Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood Since 1843": http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=1171

 

Taking that article at face value... IF (and I emphasize the "if"s here) JS did intend for women to have the priesthood and IF BY did indeed change that as a matter of policy and IF that was based on some type of misogyny and not revelation, then I would agree that's a shame.  

[mfbukowski]

How so?

Delicate subject, obviously.

If the temple ordinances are to be taken as "official" stances on women and the priesthood, is it so cut and dry that the official stance is "women don't have it because God said so?"

I find that the difference between the ordinances for men and women show that indeed gender is an eternal aspect of our nature and that indeed there is a real sense in which - pardon the use of the old politically incorrect phrase- "women don't need the priesthood".

We should sit down and discuss it sometime in a celestial room with temple sacred materials cards and go over the differences word by word. Barring that, talk to a woman who has memorized her ordinances and compare it to the memorized mens ordinance the next time you are in the temple.

Men have the priesthood to help them overcome; women literally do not need those blessings. They are given them directly in the temple.

So yes, they do not have the priesthood because "God said so" or at least all our theology is based on that assumption.

People who discount this point miss it completely, but the reality is that it is THE entire point, but we do not talk about it. Either you get it or you don't.

Edited June 21, 2014 by mfbukowski

[changed]

Women do not hold the priesthood due to the fall in Eden.

[JLHPROF]

 

The only officially correct reason we have at the moment is "we don't know, God currently set it up that way" (though many contend the latter point -- I personally do not).

 

Well, I don't agree with this.  I think there are very solid doctrinal explanations for the current setup of priesthood.

 

However, I also agree that most of the reasons listed on this thread are "wrongly given".  People like to make up all kinds of reasons to explain why women can't hold the priesthood and all kinds of reasons why they can.

But the temple shows the true order of priesthood, and that should be enough explanation for anyone.

[Anijen]

I do not recall who said it, but I liked its reasoning, paraphrasing here; men are lazy, women are not, they would take over do such an excellent job and men would go away probably thankful they have one less duty. I thought of all the wards I have ever been in that seems par to us men.

 

Now I do try to magnify my callings and honor the priesthood I bear, but dang my wife is way ahead of me that if it wasn't for they oath and covenant of the priesthood I probably would devolve and become a slug.

[Zakuska]

If the temple ordinances are to be taken as "official" stances on women and the priesthood, is it so cut and dry that the official stance is "women don't have it because God said so?"

And yet who kneeled at the altar with Adam when he made his first priesthood offering of a lamb AND said the same words he did in his prayer? Who'd a thunk that the first sacrament prayer ever given was blessed by a Priest AND his Priestess.

AMEN Juliann.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Zakuska

[juliann]

 

 

Now I do try to magnify my callings and honor the priesthood I bear, but dang my wife is way ahead of me that if it wasn't for they oath and covenant of the priesthood I probably would devolve and become a slug.

Then all men without priesthood would be slugs. All religions should have fallen apart centuries ago.  I've never understood why "having the priesthood" would be the difference between fulfilling a calling or being a do nothing.   Family is a measure of our success, but being a priesthood holder doesn't make much of a difference in divorce rates.  The temple does, but not being a "priesthood holder."

 

I think the emphasis needs to be on why these traditional defenses fall apart immediately so we can develop better ones.

[JLHPROF]

And yet who kneeled at the altar with Adam when he made his first priesthood offering of a lamb AND said the same words he did in his prayer? Who'd a thunk that the first sacrament prayer ever given was blessed by a Priest AND his Priestess.

 

This is true, but you persist in wanting to apply orders of priesthood downward.  This was a temple prayer, not an Aaronic sacrament.

Just because women exercise certain higher priesthood keys and offices in the temple doesn't mean they automatically are called to minister in the Aaronic or Melchezidek offices in the earthly Church.  It's the bad interpretation of Joseph Smith's discourse to the Relief Society all over again.

 

This continues to be a false comparison being made by a couple of posters.

[Zakuska]

This is true, but you persist in wanting to apply orders of priesthood downward. This was a temple prayer, not an Aaronic sacrament.

Just because women exercise certain higher priesthood keys and offices in the temple doesn't mean they automatically are called to minister in the Aaronic or Melchezidek offices in the earthly Church. It's the bad interpretation of Joseph Smith's discourse to the Relief Society all over again.

This continues to be a false comparison being made by a couple of posters.

Adam and Eve both wear a specific piece of clothing and we are told it represents a specific thing. If she doesn't have it she should not be wearing the specific piece of clothing because then it would not represent anything.

Now, lest I be accused of "temple talk" I bow out of the conversation.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Zakuska

[JLHPROF]

Adam and Eve Both wear a specific piece of clothing and it represents a specific thing. If she doesn't have it she should not be wearing the specific piece of clothing because then it would not represent anything.

Now, lest I be accused of "temple talk" I bow out of the conversation.

 

You are not wrong in this.  I've been saying this from the beginning of the OW debate.  But once again you are applying this order of priesthood to the ones practiced in the Church on Sundays by Deacons, Priests, Bishops etc.  They are not the same.  And just because a woman in the temple representing heavenly places can exercise certain priesthood keys does not automatically follow that she is called to exercise different keys in a very different mortal world.

 

You cannot make the jump from priesthood in the temple order being exercised to priesthood in the ecclesiastical order being exercised.

Edited June 22, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Zakuska]

You are not wrong in this. I've been saying this from the beginning of the OW debate. But once again you are applying this order of priesthood to the ones practiced in the Church on Sundays by Deacons, Priests, Bishops etc. They are not the same. And just because a woman in the temple representing heavenly places can exercise certain priesthood keys does not automatically follow that she is called to exercise different keys in a very different mortal world.

You cannot make the jump from priesthood in the temple order being exercised to priesthood in the ecclesiastical order being exercised.

How can she "exercise certian priesthood keys" anywhere if she does not hold the priesthood?

At least you guys could try to be consistant in your argumentation.

And like wise, just because a woman does not hold the same offices in the priesthood as men do, doesnt mean she does not have the priesthood.

"And I will make of you a nation of priests AND priestesses."

Edited June 22, 2014 by Zakuska

[JLHPROF]

How can she "exercise certian priesthood keys" anywhere if she does not hold the priesthood?

At least you guys could try to be consistant in your argumentation.

And like wise, just because a woman does not hold the same offices in the priesthood as men do, doesnt mean she does not have the priesthood.

"And I will make of you a nation of priests AND priestesses."

 

I'm very consistent.  I say that women who are endowed hold certain priesthood keys.  But maybe that's just me.  I have never disputed that. 

 

It's the next step where people want women and girls being deacons, teachers, priests, elders and high priests etc  that I can't support.  But the established fact that they receive priesthood keys in the temple and can be ordained Queens and Priestesses should be enough evidence to anyone that women can hold the priesthood.

[Zakuska]

Cannot A Melq. Priesthood holder do anything that a Deacon, Teacher, or Priest in the Aaronic Priesthood can do?

An endowed woman holds more Priesthood than a Priest in the Aaronic priesthood. Yet because of church policy, she is limited in her ability to exercise that Priesthood and would need permission from her Bishop to do so. Which in turn would need permission up the power chain to the Lord.

Which takes us back to the way the church is percieved in the world as mysoginistic[sic] because they who hold the keys wont let women exercise their authority. Thats why I said its a shame. Because of church policy and proceeder it seems, women and some men have forgotten that endowed women really do hold the priesthood, as evidenced by the bruhaha going on. OW is basically fighting for something they already have.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Zakuska

[JLHPROF]

Cannot A Melq. Priesthood holder do anything that a Deacon, Teacher, or Priest in the Aaronic Priesthood can do?

An endowed woman holds more Priesthood than a Priest in the Aaronic priesthood. Yet because of church policy, she is limited in her ability to exercise that Priesthood and would need permission from her Bishop to do so. Which in turn would need permission up the power chain to the Lord.

Which takes us back to the way the church is percieved in the world as mysoginistic[sic] because they who hold the keys wont let women exercise their authority. Thats why I said its a shame.

 

Completely different orders of priesthood.  Priesthood isn't a bucket, and being endowed doesn't mean your bucket is more full than an Elder's bucket.

It means you have specific keys you can utilize.

In a similar way when you are ordained to the priesthood you receive ALL the keys of the priesthood, which is why you are then given a specific office to function in.  That's why you can progress in priesthood office without having additional conferral.

"I confer upon you the Aaronic Priesthood (yep, now you have it all) and ordain you to be a Deacon therein (oh, now are called to do certain things)".

"I confer upon you the Melchezidek Priesthood (yep, now you have it all) and ordain you to be an Elder therein (oh, now you have a specific calling)."

Receiving priesthood keys in the temple doesn't bestow a calling outside of the temple order.  You are still to function within the parameters of your calling.

 

Just because an endowed person receives keys of the order of  Aaronic and Melchezidek does not mean they have to be called to any particular office.  And callings to offices have been handed down by revelation since the beginning of time.  And certain callings are for men (King/Priest for instance) and certain callings are for women (Queen/Priestess for instance).  And just as you will never have a male Queen/Priestess you will never have a female King/Priest.  Why then would we expect a female Bishop or Elder?